A close thing .....

Quoted message said:

What I suppose I am trying to say is that as drivers we can never be too
careful - apologies for preaching to the converted here but sometimes we can
all become a tad complacent in our 4 wheel boxes.

Kind of agree. I work for two companies (currently trying to shift
from one profession to another with only limited success so far!).
Anyway, it means I am constantly moving between two locations through
the centre of the city. So often I catch myself fiddling with the
radio, trying to work the CD player or picking something up off the
flow and forgetting to look out for cyclists. Sometimes I have to give
myself a good talking to. Oxford is full of cyclists and you often
become very used to them and almost blind to them too.

"David K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

....... and I was in the car.

As a reasonably regular cyclist and lurker in this NG I am conscious of
our vulnerability and try to drive with due care and consideration on my
way to work.

This morning, while stuck in traffic, I checked my mirrors and was about
to change lane. For no good reason I changed my mind and stopped. A
cyclist that I had not seen shot past on the inside.

There is no doubt in my mind had I continued the change of lane I would
have hit her.

Now I do try and drive in a cyclist friendly way as I am 'one of them' but
this really shook me up a bit. I just did not see her despite looking in
both mirrors. I think I even cast a glance over my left shoulder but could
not be sure.

What I suppose I am trying to say is that as drivers we can never be too
careful - apologies for preaching to the converted here but sometimes we
can all become a tad complacent in our 4 wheel boxes.

Regards,

David
(who has had his rude awakening this morning)

I imagine as you were in a lane and not indicating she would have assumed
you were not going to change lane. A reasonable assumption I would have
thought.
Were there any road markings you also failed to see? ie she may have been in
a left turn lane while you were not.

When you say
"I think I even cast a glance over my left shoulder but could not be sure"
do you mean you would have gone for it even though you weren't sure you were
clear to?

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:25:21 -0000

David K said:

There is no doubt in my mind had I continued the change of lane I
would have hit her.

Obviously I don't know about your case, but therein lurks
a common fallacy. Cyclists (and indeed motorcyclists) are
very good at emergency escapes that may seem impossible
from a driver's perspective.

Think yourself on the bike. You're aware of the cars around
you, and ready to take evasive action if one of them does
something stupid in your direction. What would you have done,
and would it have ended up as anything worse than a curse-and-
swear-at-the-moron incident?

--
not me guv

clodhopper said:

"David K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

....... and I was in the car.

As a reasonably regular cyclist and lurker in this NG I am conscious
of our vulnerability and try to drive with due care and
consideration on my way to work.

This morning, while stuck in traffic, I checked my mirrors and was
about to change lane. For no good reason I changed my mind and
stopped. A cyclist that I had not seen shot past on the inside.

There is no doubt in my mind had I continued the change of lane I
would have hit her.

Now I do try and drive in a cyclist friendly way as I am 'one of
them' but this really shook me up a bit. I just did not see her
despite looking in both mirrors. I think I even cast a glance over
my left shoulder but could not be sure.

What I suppose I am trying to say is that as drivers we can never be
too careful - apologies for preaching to the converted here but
sometimes we can all become a tad complacent in our 4 wheel boxes.

Regards,

David
(who has had his rude awakening this morning)

I imagine as you were in a lane and not indicating she would have
assumed you were not going to change lane. A reasonable assumption I
would have thought.

Agreed. I am am in no way blaming the cyclist here. I have put my hands up
and admitted I did not see her even though I feel I looked - obviously not
well enough.

Quoted message said:

Were there any road markings you also failed to see? ie she may have
been in a left turn lane while you were not.

No other road markings. I was stopped in the outside lane contemplating a
change of lane.

Quoted message said:

When you say
"I think I even cast a glance over my left shoulder but could not be
sure" do you mean you would have gone for it even though you weren't
sure you were clear to?

I was not going for anything. The inside lane was completely free from cars
as there was a van parked a car length or so behind me. There was a car
turning right ahead and unable to cross the oncoming traffic. The inside
lane was free of cars but I did not pick up the cyclist.

Having checked, there appeared to be no reason not to make a safe change of
lane. This was not a quick dart 'the traffic is slow in the outside lane and
I'm in a hurry to work' change of lane. I was stopped and thinking about it.

For some reason I stopped (I had started to turn the wheel and move ever so
slightly towards the inside) and decided not to change. Could it have been
that I satisfied myself there were no cars but subconcsiously picked up a
cyclist? Maybe a bit implausible but for whatever reason I didn't change
lane and I'm relieved.

Looking back I imagine that the parked van may a blocked my view of the
cyclist who was able to overtake it and return to the inside lane without me
picking her up.

David

In article <[email hidden]>, David
K
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

....... and I was in the car.

As a reasonably regular cyclist and lurker in this NG I am conscious of our
vulnerability and try to drive with due care and consideration on my way to
work.

This morning, while stuck in traffic, I checked my mirrors and was about to
change lane. For no good reason I changed my mind and stopped. A cyclist
that I had not seen shot past on the inside.

There is no doubt in my mind had I continued the change of lane I would have
hit her.

Now I do try and drive in a cyclist friendly way as I am 'one of them' but
this really shook me up a bit. I just did not see her despite looking in
both mirrors. I think I even cast a glance over my left shoulder but could
not be sure.

Learn from motorcyclists and always make a 'lifesaver' observation over
the appropriate shoulder before moving out or over. You probably don't
need to look particularly hard as long as you turn your head -
peripheral vision is pretty good at picking up the movement of anything
coming up behind you, and any extra observation is better than none.
Also when you use your mirrors check them twice and you're less likely
to be surprised.

David K said:

....... and I was in the car.

As a reasonably regular cyclist and lurker in this NG I am conscious of our
vulnerability and try to drive with due care and consideration on my way to
work.

This morning, while stuck in traffic, I checked my mirrors and was about to
change lane. For no good reason I changed my mind and stopped. A cyclist
that I had not seen shot past on the inside.

There is no doubt in my mind had I continued the change of lane I would have
hit her.

Now I do try and drive in a cyclist friendly way as I am 'one of them' but
this really shook me up a bit. I just did not see her despite looking in
both mirrors. I think I even cast a glance over my left shoulder but could
not be sure.

What I suppose I am trying to say is that as drivers we can never be too
careful - apologies for preaching to the converted here but sometimes we can
all become a tad complacent in our 4 wheel boxes.

Regards,

David
(who has had his rude awakening this morning)

the danger with lane filtering is that you are passing though cars blind
spots, years ago i did see a photo of a car with a impressive marked out
area that couldn't be seen by mirrors.

some cars are better than others but all at least that i've used have
had fairly big blind spots.

and yes bikes be that motor or pedal can suprise one.

roger

Quoted message said:

Learn from motorcyclists and always make a 'lifesaver' observation over
the appropriate shoulder before moving out or over. You probably don't
need to look particularly hard as long as you turn your head -
peripheral vision is pretty good at picking up the movement of anything
coming up behind you, and any extra observation is better than none.
Also when you use your mirrors check them twice and you're less likely
to be surprised.- Hide quoted text -

True. I rode a motorbike for many years and recently my last head
check stopped me from going into the path of a speeding car who
thought they would sneak past me even though I was obviously
indicating right and sat in the middle of my lane ready to turn ages
before he arrived speedily on my tail. The one muscle cramp I never
moan about at is the one in my neck from checking what those pesky
drivers are up to behind me. I must also start remembering that in my
car, I am that pesky driver!

Following on from David K's message. . .

Quoted message said:

This morning, while stuck in traffic, I checked my mirrors and was about to
change lane. For no good reason I changed my mind and stopped. A cyclist
that I had not seen shot past on the inside.

ISTR years ago when I would drive to London I'd specially adjust my
nearside wing mirror to see inside cyclists better after they appeared
from nowhere. As a 'cyclist being a driver' you get used to
anticipating where these events are more likely, but what does that say
about the rest of them.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the bookshop idea was shelved
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

David K said:

....... and I was in the car.

As I, driving back from a meeting in Didsbury this afternoon, was
turning off the M6 I noticed a Preston-bound cyclist using the
roundabout. The junction has a left filter lane which I was about to use
to head towards Preston.

To my amazement, the cyclist stopped on the cross-hatching between the
left filter lane and the remaining two lanes to wait for traffic to
pass. I suspect he will still be there now.

What I completely fail to understand is why the chap decided to make
this potentially dangerous manoeuvre rather than either continuing to
use the roundabout (he must have already negotiated the more dangerous
of the two) or using the alternative cycle route, which has actually
been built to a decent standard.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

David:

I presume that you were using your indicators (though no mention of
them do I see....). This is the best indication (if you'll pardon the
pun) that a cyclist can get of cars performing such an action as lane
changing.

Fair play to you though for holding up your hand to it.

Robert

BigRab said:

David:

I presume that you were using your indicators (though no mention of
them do I see....). This is the best indication (if you'll pardon the
pun) that a cyclist can get of cars performing such an action as lane
changing.

Fair play to you though for holding up your hand to it.

Robert

TBH I'm not sure I used the indicators but then again I didn't complete the
manoeuvre barely moving into the lane. Normally I would instinctively (use
indicators) but I cannot recall.

David
--
[email hidden]

David K said the following on 23/03/2007 11:06:

Quoted message said:

TBH I'm not sure I used the indicators but then again I didn't complete the
manoeuvre barely moving into the lane. Normally I would instinctively (use
indicators) but I cannot recall.

You've just opened yourself up to abuse there! "Didn't complete the
manoeuvre" and "barely moving into the lane" means that you did start
the manoeuvre. You should have been signalling *before* you started the
manoeuvre...

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd said:

David K said the following on 23/03/2007 11:06:

Quoted message said:

TBH I'm not sure I used the indicators but then again I didn't
complete the manoeuvre barely moving into the lane. Normally I would
instinctively (use indicators) but I cannot recall.

You've just opened yourself up to abuse there! "Didn't complete the
manoeuvre" and "barely moving into the lane" means that you did start
the manoeuvre. You should have been signalling *before* you started
the manoeuvre...

While I cannot recall signalling I usually do it instinctively. My wheels
barely crossed the white line into the inside lane. I caused no-one to
swerve or brake. The cyclist slipped past totally oblivious.

I am admitting that I didn't see someone despite what I thought were my best
efforts - which they obviously weren't. I wanted to pass on my experience to
others that we all need to be vigilant.

Why would I be "open to abuse" for what I have done?

David

David K said:

Paul Boyd said:

David K said the following on 23/03/2007 11:06:

Quoted message said:

TBH I'm not sure I used the indicators but then again I didn't
complete the manoeuvre barely moving into the lane. Normally I would
instinctively (use indicators) but I cannot recall.

You've just opened yourself up to abuse there! "Didn't complete the
manoeuvre" and "barely moving into the lane" means that you did start
the manoeuvre. You should have been signalling *before* you started
the manoeuvre...

While I cannot recall signalling I usually do it instinctively. My wheels
barely crossed the white line into the inside lane. I caused no-one to
swerve or brake. The cyclist slipped past totally oblivious.

I am admitting that I didn't see someone despite what I thought were my best
efforts - which they obviously weren't. I wanted to pass on my experience to
others that we all need to be vigilant.

Why would I be "open to abuse" for what I have done?

For not knowing whether you were signaling or not.

I get the impression you almost certainly were but just didn't specifically
register the fact so out of honesty did not claim something you could not swear
to.

David K said:

Why would I be "open to abuse" for what I have done?

Because it's easier to pillory someone who owns up than someone who's
convinced they're right.

See also:

CSA picking on fathers who pay a bit rather than those who pay nothing.

HMRC picking on those who pay some tax but ignoring those who pay none.

Plod generally being in fear of the real hard cases but going for the
easy meat.

Paul Boyd said:

David K said the following on 23/03/2007 11:06:

Quoted message said:

TBH I'm not sure I used the indicators but then again I didn't complete the
manoeuvre barely moving into the lane. Normally I would instinctively (use
indicators) but I cannot recall.

You've just opened yourself up to abuse there! "Didn't complete the
manoeuvre" and "barely moving into the lane" means that you did start
the manoeuvre. You should have been signalling *before* you started the
manoeuvre...

Butbutbut. BMW drivers use the indicators to let other road users know
that they have successfully completed the lane change manoeuvre.

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura Ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record Sprint mongrel

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Peter Fox
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Following on from David K's message. . .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This morning, while stuck in traffic, I checked my mirrors and was about to
change lane. For no good reason I changed my mind and stopped. A cyclist
that I had not seen shot past on the inside.

Not meant as a criticism, but were you signalling at this point?

Quoted message said:

ISTR years ago when I would drive to London I'd specially adjust my
nearside wing mirror to see inside cyclists better after they appeared
from nowhere. As a 'cyclist being a driver' you get used to
anticipating where these events are more likely, but what does that say
about the rest of them.

I drive a van with no rear windows, and am acutely aware of just how
much of what's going on behind and to either side I cannot see. As a
consequence I always signal well in advance, and take care to check very
carefully what I can see in the mirrors, and do a "look round" check
through the left hand side passenger window (it's a crew-cab, 2 rows of
seats) before moving left. I also try and manoeuvre as gently as
possible and change lanes slowly, so that if there is someone in my
blind-spots, they have time to react. Just because a modern vehicle
*can* turn really quickly doesn't mean it's always a good idea to do so,
IME.

One of the things that really annoys me in other drivers, whether I'm in
my van or on my bike, is people who don't indicate until after they have
started to manoeuvre. The whole point of indicators is to let other
people know what you are going to do, before you start to do it, so they
can take appropriate action themselves. Yet so often I see cars swing
left or right with no warning, only to start to indicate as they are
half-way through the manoeuvre. Madness!

The situation is made worse in Leeds by some completely insane road
marked cycle lanes and facilities. The A64 dual-carriageway
with-guided-bus-lanes intersects with Harehills lane (a fairly busy
through route) at a trafic light controlled junction at the top of a
hill. Eastbound, you come up to the lights with a non-mandatory cycle
lane on the left, then two traffic lanes (and then a guided bus lane but
that doesn't really affect things).

If you're going straight on, all's well, the cycle lane leads into an
ASL box as you'd expect. However, if you're turning left (in a motor
vehicle), then there's a separate turn-through arc, controlled by the
same lights as the main road - which has what looks like an ASL except
the back of it is simply the broken white line of the non-mandatory
cycle lane - there isn't actually an advanced stop line for motor
vehicles.

As a driver, if I come up to that junction I have no idea if I'm
supposed to just sit in the left-hand lane, far enough back to be able
to make the turn, or cross the broken white line and stop at the actual
stop line of the lights. If I sit back in the through-lane, I'm always
worried about the possibility of cyclists (or even motorcyclists) coming
up on the inside and ignoring my left turn signal and going straight
ahead. If I pull into the not-an-ASL-box, I'm blocking the cycle lane
till the lights change.

Is anyone else here familiar with this junction? I think it's a serious
potential hazard to cyclists.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>