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A little help please...............

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
8 January 2006
Last activity
10 January 2006
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theoulfella
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Luna said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    FOB said:

    Not true, I have seen lots of labels where the fiber and sugar don't add
    up
    to total carbs. There are carbs other than sugar and fiber.

    "OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Sorry dear, but I have yet to see that on any package labels I have
    read. ;-)

    Look at sugar, fiber, add them together and it should equal the total
    carb content.

    Ok, I have too, when it involves "alcohol carbs".

    But I don't eat [censored].

    What I was talking about was REAL food, not frankenfood.

    Cheers!

    Uh, yeah. I think everyone else was too. Do you think sugar, sugar
    alcohols, and fiber are the only carbohydrates? Did you never hear of
    starches? Also, don't food companies list carbohydrates by difference?
    Which means after they've measured the calories from fat and protein,
    anything left over is counted as a carbohydrate. Which, IIRC, is where
    some of the yogurt confusion comes from.

    I'd always considered starches as sugars.....

    Guess I was wrong.
    --
    Om.

    "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

  2. OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> In article <[email hidden]>,
    :> "FOB" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>
    :>> Okay, here are three cans I happen to have in my pantry. No sugar
    :>> alcohols in any of these:
    :>>
    :>> Blackeye Peas, per 1/2 cup, total carbs - 15, Fiber - 4, Sugars - 0.
    :>> Butter Beans, per 1/2 cup, total - 20, fiber - 4, sugars - 1
    :>> White Hominy, 1/2 cup, total - 22, fiber - 4, sugar - 1
    :>
    :> So where are the extra carbs coming from?

    Starches.

    :> --
    :> Om.
    :>
    :> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]."
    :> -Jack Nicholson

  3. OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> In article <[email hidden]>,
    :> Luna <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>
    :>> In article
    :>> <[email hidden]>,
    :>> OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>>
    :>> > In article <[email hidden]>,
    :>> > "FOB" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>> >
    :>> > > Not true, I have seen lots of labels where the fiber and sugar
    :>> > > don't add up
    :>> > > to total carbs. There are carbs other than sugar and fiber.
    :>> > >
    :>> > >
    :>> > > "OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    :>> > > news:[email hidden]...
    :>> > >
    :>> > > Sorry dear, but I have yet to see that on any package labels I
    :>> > > have
    :>> > > read. ;-)
    :>> > >
    :>> > > Look at sugar, fiber, add them together and it should equal the
    :>> > > total carb content.
    :>> >
    :>> > Ok, I have too, when it involves "alcohol carbs".
    :>> >
    :>> > But I don't eat [censored].
    :>> >
    :>> > What I was talking about was REAL food, not frankenfood.
    :>> >
    :>> > Cheers!
    :>>
    :>> Uh, yeah. I think everyone else was too. Do you think sugar, sugar
    :>> alcohols, and fiber are the only carbohydrates? Did you never hear
    :>> of starches? Also, don't food companies list carbohydrates by
    :>> difference?
    :>> Which means after they've measured the calories from fat and
    :>> protein, anything left over is counted as a carbohydrate. Which,
    :>> IIRC, is where
    :>> some of the yogurt confusion comes from.
    :>
    :>
    :> I'd always considered starches as sugars.....

    They both become glucose in the body....but they aren't listed on the label
    that way....

    Haven't you noticed that some sugar-free products still have carbs that
    aren't fiber?

    :>
    :> Guess I was wrong.
    :> --
    :> Om.
    :>
    :> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]."
    :> -Jack Nicholson

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Roger Zoul said:

    OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> In article <[email hidden]>,
    :> Luna <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>
    :>> In article
    :>> <[email hidden]>,
    :>> OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>>
    :>> > In article <[email hidden]>,
    :>> > "FOB" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>> >
    :>> > > Not true, I have seen lots of labels where the fiber and sugar
    :>> > > don't add up
    :>> > > to total carbs. There are carbs other than sugar and fiber.
    :>> > >
    :>> > >
    :>> > > "OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    :>> > > news:[email hidden]...
    :>> > >
    :>> > > Sorry dear, but I have yet to see that on any package labels I
    :>> > > have
    :>> > > read. ;-)
    :>> > >
    :>> > > Look at sugar, fiber, add them together and it should equal the
    :>> > > total carb content.
    :>> >
    :>> > Ok, I have too, when it involves "alcohol carbs".
    :>> >
    :>> > But I don't eat [censored].
    :>> >
    :>> > What I was talking about was REAL food, not frankenfood.
    :>> >
    :>> > Cheers!
    :>>
    :>> Uh, yeah. I think everyone else was too. Do you think sugar, sugar
    :>> alcohols, and fiber are the only carbohydrates? Did you never hear
    :>> of starches? Also, don't food companies list carbohydrates by
    :>> difference?
    :>> Which means after they've measured the calories from fat and
    :>> protein, anything left over is counted as a carbohydrate. Which,
    :>> IIRC, is where
    :>> some of the yogurt confusion comes from.
    :>
    :>
    :> I'd always considered starches as sugars.....

    They both become glucose in the body....but they aren't listed on the label
    that way....

    Haven't you noticed that some sugar-free products still have carbs that
    aren't fiber?

    I figured they were sugar alcohols......
    --
    Om.

    "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

  5. OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :> In article <[email hidden]>,
    :> "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>
    :>> OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>> :> In article
    :>> :> <[email hidden]>,
    :>> :> Luna <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>> :>
    :>> :>> In article
    :>> :>> <[email hidden]>,
    :>> :>> OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>> :>>
    :>> :>> > In article <[email hidden]>,
    :>> :>> > "FOB" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    :>> :>> >
    :>> :>> > > Not true, I have seen lots of labels where the fiber and
    :>> :>> > > sugar
    :>> :>> > > don't add up
    :>> :>> > > to total carbs. There are carbs other than sugar and fiber.
    :>> :>> > >
    :>> :>> > >
    :>> :>> > > "OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    :>> :>> > >
    news:[email hidden]...
    :>> :>> > >
    :>> :>> > > Sorry dear, but I have yet to see that on any package
    :>> :>> > > labels I
    :>> :>> > > have
    :>> :>> > > read. ;-)
    :>> :>> > >
    :>> :>> > > Look at sugar, fiber, add them together and it should equal
    :>> :>> > > the
    :>> :>> > > total carb content.
    :>> :>> >
    :>> :>> > Ok, I have too, when it involves "alcohol carbs".
    :>> :>> >
    :>> :>> > But I don't eat [censored].
    :>> :>> >
    :>> :>> > What I was talking about was REAL food, not frankenfood.
    :>> :>> >
    :>> :>> > Cheers!
    :>> :>>
    :>> :>> Uh, yeah. I think everyone else was too. Do you think sugar,
    :>> :>> sugar alcohols, and fiber are the only carbohydrates? Did you
    :>> :>> never hear
    :>> :>> of starches? Also, don't food companies list carbohydrates by
    :>> :>> difference?
    :>> :>> Which means after they've measured the calories from fat and
    :>> :>> protein, anything left over is counted as a carbohydrate.
    :>> :>> Which,
    :>> :>> IIRC, is where
    :>> :>> some of the yogurt confusion comes from.
    :>> :>
    :>> :>
    :>> :> I'd always considered starches as sugars.....
    :>>
    :>> They both become glucose in the body....but they aren't listed on
    :>> the label that way....
    :>>
    :>> Haven't you noticed that some sugar-free products still have carbs
    :>> that aren't fiber?
    :>
    :> I figured they were sugar alcohols......

    Not always....

    :> --
    :> Om.
    :>
    :> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]."
    :> -Jack Nicholson

  6. OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

    I'd always considered starches as sugars.....

    They're made of sugars, but they're not sugars.

    All the "simple" sugars are one sugar molecule. Many common sugars are
    made of two simple sugars bonded together. What winds up classified as
    "sugars" are the monosaccharides and disaccharides, one-and-two sugar
    molecules.

    Long, branching polymers of sugar are "starch". Fiber is long,
    branching polymers of sugar also. There's a somewhat different
    3-dimensional layout to the branches though. Fiber is built "wrong"
    for you to digest.

    The reason you subtract fiber is because your body doesn't make the
    enzymes to break fiber down into sugar. It *does* make enzymes to
    break down starch into sugar. This is because the enzymes your body
    makes don't "fit" fiber, so you can't digest it. So starch "counts" on
    a low-carb diet and fiber doesn't.

    However, if you were a termite, you'd make different enzymes... so
    fiber would "count" after all. So termites *cannot* go on low-carb
    diets. (Except it's really bacteria in termite's digestive tracts that
    "eat" cellulose, not the termites themselves. But I digress.)

    Sugar alcohols are not really carbohydrates. They are counted as
    carbohydrates on labels because carbohydrate is measured by difference,
    so everything that is not a protein or a fat gets counted as a
    carbohydrate. Lactic acid is "counted" as a carb in yogurt, as noted,
    even though it is chemically not a carb and not treated as a carb by
    the body. Just the way it works.

  7. Quoted message said:
    OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

    I'd always considered starches as sugars.....

    They're made of sugars, but they're not sugars.

    All the "simple" sugars are one sugar molecule. Many common sugars are
    made of two simple sugars bonded together. What winds up classified as
    "sugars" are the monosaccharides and disaccharides, one-and-two sugar
    molecules.

    Long, branching polymers of sugar are "starch". Fiber is long,
    branching polymers of sugar also. There's a somewhat different
    3-dimensional layout to the branches though. Fiber is built "wrong"
    for you to digest.

    The reason you subtract fiber is because your body doesn't make the
    enzymes to break fiber down into sugar. It *does* make enzymes to
    break down starch into sugar. This is because the enzymes your body
    makes don't "fit" fiber, so you can't digest it. So starch "counts" on
    a low-carb diet and fiber doesn't.

    The history of the dietary "Calorie" stems from work in the late 1800's
    by the USDA using an Oxygen Bomb Calorimeter which measured the heat in
    burning foods to vapor and ash. In this way, the fiber burned
    completely, adding to the measured heat. This was a relatively cheap
    way of measuring the energy in food, much like you would measure the
    energy in coal or wood or gasoline.

    ---------------------------------------------
    The study of nutrition owes a great deal to the year W.O. Atwater
    spent in Carl Voit's lab in Germany. Voit's pioneering work focused on
    respiration-the exchange of gases between the blood and tissues--and
    calorimetry--the measurement of heat. It was Voit who had taken the
    first steps toward quantifying the human body's nutritional needs.

    Atwater returned to America inspired. Before long he built a room
    calorimeter for human studies, as well as a bomb calorimeter for
    systematically measuring the energy values in foods themselves. The bomb
    calorimeter enabled Atwater to burn foods and products of
    excretion--human input and output, so to speak-making it possible to
    calculate the body's energy expenditure as the difference.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Quoted message said:


    However, if you were a termite, you'd make different enzymes... so
    fiber would "count" after all. So termites *cannot* go on low-carb
    diets. (Except it's really bacteria in termite's digestive tracts that
    "eat" cellulose, not the termites themselves. But I digress.)

    Yes, this is correct. This points out the hundred year old error in the
    simplicity of the Oxygen Bomb Calorimeter.... or more correctly, ONE of
    the errors in the use of the device.

    Quoted message said:


    Sugar alcohols are not really carbohydrates. They are counted as
    carbohydrates on labels because carbohydrate is measured by difference,
    so everything that is not a protein or a fat gets counted as a
    carbohydrate. Lactic acid is "counted" as a carb in yogurt, as noted,
    even though it is chemically not a carb and not treated as a carb by
    the body. Just the way it works.

    This may be related to other errors in the concept of the Oxygen Bomb
    Calorimeter .... which is not an accurate description of how the human
    body actually uses food. We don't convert foods to carbon dioxide,
    water (dihidrogen oxide) and ash. Besides pee produced in part from
    food idgestion, we [censored], and we don't all make the same [censored].

    --
    1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
    2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
    3) Don't Diet Without Supplimental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
    book
    4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

  8. jbuch said:

    This may be related to other errors in the concept of the Oxygen Bomb
    Calorimeter .... which is not an accurate description of how the human
    body actually uses food. We don't convert foods to carbon dioxide,
    water (dihidrogen oxide) and ash.

    Well, actually we *do* convert food to water and carbon dioxide. We
    inhale oxygen and exhale water-saturated carbon dioxide, because we
    metabolise *some* things all the way down.

    Just in case someone is wondering, ash is just minerals, most of which
    when found in the body are dissolved. This is why we don't "think" of
    ash being a by-product of metabolism. It's not entirely a
    way-of-speaking to talk of "burning" calories as the end products of
    complete catabolism are identical to those of efficient burning -
    water, carbon dioxide and ash.

    But you're right that *all* the food we eat is not completly
    metabolised that way. The real difficulty in doing calculations with
    calories is that so much of our food is "in between" stuff. Simple
    sugars are metabolised completly (your body uses every tiny *bit* of
    sugar calories) - so count every bit. Insoluble fiber is mostly not
    metabolised at all (calories are completly irrelevant since your body
    doesn't "eat" it even if you do) - so don't count those calories at
    all. And then there's stuff like soluble fiber, which is partially
    metabolised (with the help of GI bacteria, we have that much in common
    with termites), so some amount of calories are used, but not all - and
    who knows how much?

    And that's just looking at a few types of carbs, not even including the
    protein, fat, water, ash, and other chemicals present in food.

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