A maintenance newbie asks...

Julesh wrote:
............

Quoted message said:

The rear mech claims to be a Shimano SIS - I thought these were
indexed?

They're suitable for use with index levers but you can use any mech with
non-indexed gear levers.

Quoted message said:

Having thought about this I've come to the conclusion that
it probably the changer, not the mech, that does the indexing?

That's right.

Quoted message said:

Is
there then any difference between an indexed and non-indexed rear
mech?

I can't remember, but the mech has to move by the correct amount per mm of
cable pulled when used with indexed levers.

Quoted message said:

If I wanted indexed shifting can I just change the downtube
shifter from a friction one to one with some form of click stops
(assuming such a thing exists - or have I got this all wrong?

Yes you can do that. The existing mech would most likely be ok.

I'll "pass" on the other questions for now.

~PB

Julesh said:

Having let my LBS do all the work on my mountain bike in the past I've
now decided to learn to do more than just fix punctures and adjust
brakes in an attempt to be a) Less of a wuss and b) Save money.

So as not to destroy my commuting bike I have just bought a cheap
secondhand 1980's road bike with 27" inch steel wheels and non-indexed
front and rear mechs. I would appreciate help and comments on the
following from anyone who knows more about this than me. This is a low
budget operation!

The wheels are going to be replaced. To save costs I have sourced a pair
of secondhand 27" alloy rimmed wheels as this looked like being a far
cheaper option than buying 700c wheels (there is little demand for old
27" so they are very cheap and I can always go to 700's later if my
attempts at maintenance don't terminally destroy the bike)

The present rear wheel has six sprockets on a conventional freewheel.
The replacement wheel (which I've yet to see) has five sprockets on a
freewheel. As far as I can see I have two options, either just use the
five sprockets on the replacement wheel, reset the high/low limiters on
the rear mech to stop it throwing the chain and accept 10 gears instead
of twelve or try to move the existing sprockets to the new wheel.

Is this latter course of action likely to be possible? Is trying to go
from 5 to 6 sprockets on a freewheel usually possible, never possible,
or is there no way of telling in any individual case without trying it?

You will have to suck it and see as the hubs may be a different width
aswell although in general it should work.

Quoted message said:

If I want to try this, or just generally play around with gear ratios I
believe I need a freewheel remover, but that these come in various
types. How do I find out the type I need? Do I also need a chain whip
and if so do the cheap ones sold as oil filter wrenches do the job or do
I need a proper cycle one?

A freewheel remover works from the inside of the sprocket case. They
come in various types but are often a shaped block to fit the particular
cassette. You would probably have to get two, one for each wheel. It
would be a mirical if two random wheels had the same cassette mounting 🙁

Quoted message said:

The rear mech claims to be a Shimano SIS - I thought these were indexed?
Having thought about this I've come to the conclusion that it probably
the changer, not the mech, that does the indexing? Is there then any
difference between an indexed and non-indexed rear mech? If I wanted
indexed shifting can I just change the downtube shifter from a friction
one to one with some form of click stops (assuming such a thing exists -
or have I got this all wrong?

Indexers will work but why bother just get used to normal friction ones.

"If nothing works as well as the thing you've just invented, use
nothing, it's cheaper and it can't go wrong"

My grandfather - worked for Vickers.

Quoted message said:

The cable from the other shifter to the front mech travels a route I've
not seen before - instead of being threaded through a plastic guide
under the bottom bracket it passes above the BB guided by two steel
channels (like tiny inverted roof gutters.) One of these (to the front
of the BB) vaguely lines up with the down tube, the other (to the rear)
guides the cable in the direction of the front mech. I think these have
got bumped as the cable pulls out of the front guide when tension is
put on it to change to the large chainwheel. I'm sure I can "adjust"
these with a small amount of force (they are brazed to the BB) but don't
want to try this more than once as it looks like they might snap off.
Can anyone advise in which direction they should be aligned - or suggest
a better way (Superglueing a more conventional cable guide under the BB?

I have seen that done, but you can tap a thread more safely. If you
dont want to buy taps get a steel bolt and cut three grooves into it
with a V file and use this, do not turn more than a 1/4 turn on each cut
without coming back to clear the thread though.

Sniper8052.

"Julesh" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

The cable from the other shifter to the front mech travels a route I've
not seen before - instead of being threaded through a plastic guide
under the bottom bracket it passes above the BB guided by two steel
channels (like tiny inverted roof gutters.) One of these (to the front
of the BB) vaguely lines up with the down tube, the other (to the rear)
guides the cable in the direction of the front mech. I think these have
got bumped as the cable pulls out of the front guide when tension is
put on it to change to the large chainwheel. I'm sure I can "adjust"
these with a small amount of force (they are brazed to the BB) but don't
want to try this more than once as it looks like they might snap off.
Can anyone advise in which direction they should be aligned - or suggest
a better way (Superglueing a more conventional cable guide under the BB?)

Thanks in advance.

Julesh

If the shifter cable develops too much slack when the shifter is put all the
way forward[1], the cable will fall out of the guide as you describe. Make
sure that, when the front shifter is all the way forward (chain on inner
chainring and shift lever all the way to the stop), there is still enough
tension in the shift cable to keep it inside the "inverted roof gutter".
Also, if the front mech is not properly aligned with the chain rings, the
cable may be pulled over the edge of the cable guide, and come out of the
guide entirely.
HTH,
--
mark

[1] Given the age of the bike, I'm assuming that it has downtube shifters.
If not, then the shifter position I'm referring to is the position that puts
the chain on the inner chainring, and minimizes tension on the cable.

Julesh said:

The rear mech claims to be a Shimano SIS - I thought these were indexed?
Having thought about this I've come to the conclusion that it probably
the changer, not the mech, that does the indexing? Is there then any
difference between an indexed and non-indexed rear mech? If I wanted
indexed shifting can I just change the downtube shifter from a friction
one to one with some form of click stops (assuming such a thing exists -
or have I got this all wrong?

This index is in teh shifter, but the mech needs to be of an
appropriate type. An indexed shifter pulls a given quantity of cable
per click, and for indexing to work you need a mech that moves the
exact sprocket spacing for the relevant cable pull over its entire
range.

The first issue is that different shifters pull different lengths (for
example, a shimano might pull one length, but a campag a different
length). There are fixes for this related to shifting the attachment
point of teh cable at the mech to increase or decrease leverage, but
you're into arcana there.

Second issue is that old old mechs might not be a mechanism that has
linear pull. That is, you might need to pull a bit more cable for 1-2
than for 4-5. I don't know to what extent this is a real problem
(have all those mechs passed away?, were they only 3-speed mechs?)

Personally, I don't bother with indexing on road down-tube shifters.
If the shifter is down there all shifts are controlled shifts ('cos
you've had to move your hands from teh bars, so you're not doing it in
a panic while braking hard turning into a bend). Your fingers will
learn the positions pretty quickly - I find my hand goes down, shifts,
and I've let go of the lever and putting hand back on teh bars before
the chain has settled down, but it always settles down to where it
wants to be. I get more reliable, better shifts that are just as
quick as indexed from friction down-tube levers.

(On mountain bike and trice, however, I use indexed)

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Julesh said:

The present rear wheel has six sprockets on a conventional freewheel.
The replacement wheel (which I've yet to see) has five sprockets on a
freewheel. As far as I can see I have two options, either just use the
five sprockets on the replacement wheel, reset the high/low limiters
on the rear mech to stop it throwing the chain and accept 10 gears
instead of twelve or try to move the existing sprockets to the new
wheel.

Quoted message said:

Is this latter course of action likely to be possible? Is trying to go
from 5 to 6 sprockets on a freewheel usually possible, never possible,
or is there no way of telling in any individual case without trying
it?

Swapping freewheels might work might not. You may need two different tools
to remove and refit each on, the hub/axle may not be wide enough for a six
speed. The clearance might be such that a sixth sprocket will foul the
chainstay.

Quoted message said:

If I want to try this, or just generally play around with gear ratios
I believe I need a freewheel remover, but that these come in various
types. How do I find out the type I need? Do I also need a chain whip
and if so do the cheap ones sold as oil filter wrenches do the job or
do I need a proper cycle one?

The rear mech claims to be a Shimano SIS - I thought these were
indexed? Having thought about this I've come to the conclusion that
it probably the changer, not the mech, that does the indexing? Is
there then any difference between an indexed and non-indexed rear
mech? If I wanted indexed shifting can I just change the downtube
shifter from a friction one to one with some form of click stops
(assuming such a thing exists - or have I got this all wrong?

To use indexed shifting properly you need an indexed changer/lever for the
number of sprockets (6 in your case). Also the sprocket teeth are profiled
to encourage smooth shifting. This may or may not be crucial I have never
tried. The rear mech has to move the correct distance for the amount of
cable pulled by the lever. Shimano IS (SIS) are standard in this respect and
always have been. I am not sure if this holds true for the low end parts to
be honest it is not true for Campag. BTW. Thus in theory you may be OK
though you may need a block designed for indexed shifting.

Quoted message said:

The cable from the other shifter to the front mech travels a route
I've not seen before - instead of being threaded through a plastic
guide under the bottom bracket it passes above the BB guided by two
steel channels (like tiny inverted roof gutters.) One of these (to
the front of the BB) vaguely lines up with the down tube, the other
(to the rear) guides the cable in the direction of the front mech. I
think these have got bumped as the cable pulls out of the front
guide when tension is put on it to change to the large chainwheel.
I'm sure I can "adjust" these with a small amount of force (they are
brazed to the BB) but don't want to try this more than once as it
looks like they might snap off. Can anyone advise in which direction
they should be aligned - or suggest a better way (Superglueing a more
conventional cable guide under the BB?)

Some machines have brazed on channels or tubes, some have plastic guides.
They should follow the cable routing.

What you are thinking of doing will be much less problematic if you forget
abount indexed shifting.

Julesh said:

So as not to destroy my commuting bike I have just bought a cheap
secondhand 1980's road bike with 27" inch steel wheels and non-indexed
front and rear mechs.
The present rear wheel has six sprockets on a conventional freewheel.
The replacement wheel (which I've yet to see) has five sprockets on a
freewheel. As far as I can see I have two options, either just use the
five sprockets on the replacement wheel, reset the high/low limiters
on the rear mech to stop it throwing the chain and accept 10 gears
instead of twelve or try to move the existing sprockets to the new
wheel.
Is this latter course of action likely to be possible? Is trying to go
from 5 to 6 sprockets on a freewheel usually possible, never possible,
or is there no way of telling in any individual case without trying
it?

Works in my experience unless the frame is very tight fitting. I've pushed
my ancient 1970's 10-speed (5 sprockets at the rear) to 14 speed (7
sprockets on rear).

Quoted message said:

If I want to try this, or just generally play around with gear ratios
I believe I need a freewheel remover, but that these come in various
types. How do I find out the type I need?

Look at the end of the freewheel for the removal tabs. Then look at the Park
Tools catelogue. They list a number of freewheel removers, but a fair chance
its the larger Shimano pattern (first one in the Park Tools catelogue).

Having got the freewheel remover, put it in a vice (or in a ring spanner
with the ring spanner in the vice) and fit the wheel over it, and then pull
on the wheel to undo.

Quoted message said:

Do I also
need a chain whip
and if so do the cheap ones sold as oil filter wrenches do the job or
do I need a proper cycle one?

You don't need a chain whip (those are needed for modern cassette removal,
not older freewheel removal).

Quoted message said:

The rear mech claims to be a Shimano SIS - I thought these were
indexed? Having thought about this I've come to the conclusion that
it probably the changer.

Quoted message said:

Is
there then any difference between an indexed and non-indexed rear
mech?

Its the shifter which sets the indexing. (Though no doubt there are some
variations in cable pull which means in a few cases manufacture-1 doesn't
work with manufacturer-2).
The only thing about an indexing rear mech is the precision in assembly. A
very sloppy loose rear mech won't index and needs replacing.

Quoted message said:

The cable from the other shifter to the front mech travels a route
I've not seen before - instead of being threaded through a plastic
guide under the bottom bracket it passes above the BB guided by two
steel channels (like tiny inverted roof gutters.)

Fairly common arrangement circa 1980.

One could look for an old band-on guide to replace the braise-on parts. That
is what is fitted to my old bike. Usually found at cycle jumble stalls at
bike shows. Or ask around bike shops which have been there for years and
years with old stock boxes.

- Nigel

--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

"NC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do I
also need a chain whip
and if so do the cheap ones sold as oil filter wrenches do the job or
do I need a proper cycle one?

You don't need a chain whip (those are needed for modern cassette
removal, not older freewheel removal).

He may not need a chain whip to remove a freewheel (I don't know since I
haven't got one to undo) but I can say that oil filter wrenches are
different from chainwhips, in that the chainwhip can secure the cassette
from above and below (it also has a length of chain along the bar) the
'free' length of chain is secured part way along the bar instead of at the
tip, and it is altogether a more solid piece of kit than my filter wrench.
While I haven't tried to use the filter wrench on a cassette, I'm inclined
to think it wouldn't work just because of the positioning of the chain if
nothing else, and at the least the chainwhip would make the job easier with
less risk of damage to hands or cassette in case of the tool slipping..

Rich

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

Julesh said:

Having let my LBS do all the work on my mountain bike in the past I've
now decided to learn to do more than just fix punctures and adjust
brakes in an attempt to be a) Less of a wuss and b) Save money.

So as not to destroy my commuting bike I have just bought a cheap
secondhand 1980's road bike with 27" inch steel wheels and non-indexed
front and rear mechs. I would appreciate help and comments on the
following from anyone who knows more about this than me. This is a low
budget operation!

The wheels are going to be replaced. To save costs I have sourced a
pair of secondhand 27" alloy rimmed wheels as this looked like being a
far cheaper option than buying 700c wheels (there is little demand for
old 27" so they are very cheap and I can always go to 700's later if
my attempts at maintenance don't terminally destroy the bike)

The present rear wheel has six sprockets on a conventional freewheel.
The replacement wheel (which I've yet to see) has five sprockets on a
freewheel. As far as I can see I have two options, either just use the
five sprockets on the replacement wheel, reset the high/low limiters
on the rear mech to stop it throwing the chain and accept 10 gears
instead of twelve or try to move the existing sprockets to the new wheel.

Is this latter course of action likely to be possible? Is trying to go
from 5 to 6 sprockets on a freewheel usually possible, never possible,
or is there no way of telling in any individual case without trying it?

You will have to suck it and see as the hubs may be a different width
aswell although in general it should work.

Thanks - and thanks to everyone else who answered. I seem to have had
this on its head. If I now understand this correctly the sprockets screw
onto the freewheel and the freewheel screws goes onto the hub - so what
I need to do is remove the freewheel (complete with sprockets) from the
old wheel, fit it on the new wheel and see if it fits in the dropouts.
It's only if I want to change the sprockets and remove those from the
freewheel I need to use one or two chain wrenches - and presumably can
do this without removing the freewheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I want to try this, or just generally play around with gear ratios
I believe I need a freewheel remover, but that these come in various
types. How do I find out the type I need? Do I also need a chain whip
and if so do the cheap ones sold as oil filter wrenches do the job or
do I need a proper cycle one?

A freewheel remover works from the inside of the sprocket case. They
come in various types but are often a shaped block to fit the particular
cassette. You would probably have to get two, one for each wheel. It
would be a mirical if two random wheels had the same cassette mounting 🙁

So possibly my best move might be to take both wheels to my LBS - where
presumably they keep freewheel removers for anything they are likely to
see and pay them to do this?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The rear mech claims to be a Shimano SIS - I thought these were
indexed? Having thought about this I've come to the conclusion that it
probably the changer, not the mech, that does the indexing? Is there
then any difference between an indexed and non-indexed rear mech? If I
wanted indexed shifting can I just change the downtube shifter from a
friction one to one with some form of click stops (assuming such a
thing exists - or have I got this all wrong?

Indexers will work but why bother just get used to normal friction ones.

"If nothing works as well as the thing you've just invented, use
nothing, it's cheaper and it can't go wrong"

Absolutely and it will save all that B****ring about with the cable
adjuster to keep them indexed too - its just that I vaguely recalled
that SIS were indexed mechs so was surprised that the gears were not
indexed. As the consensus here seems to be that there is no reason why
an "indexed" mech can't be used with a friction shifter it makes sense
that Shimano only make "indexed" mechs.

Quoted message said:

My grandfather - worked for Vickers.

Did he "Gang along the Scotswood Road" - excuse my Geordie - to the
tank plant, or was it something else?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The cable from the other shifter to the front mech travels a route
I've not seen before - instead of being threaded through a plastic
guide under the bottom bracket it passes above the BB guided by two
steel channels (like tiny inverted roof gutters.) One of these (to the
front of the BB) vaguely lines up with the down tube, the other (to
the rear) guides the cable in the direction of the front mech. I think
these have got bumped as the cable pulls out of the front guide when
tension is put on it to change to the large chainwheel. I'm sure I
can "adjust" these with a small amount of force (they are brazed to
the BB) but don't want to try this more than once as it looks like
they might snap off. Can anyone advise in which direction they should
be aligned - or suggest a better way (Superglueing a more conventional
cable guide under the BB?

I have seen that done, but you can tap a thread more safely. If you
dont want to buy taps get a steel bolt and cut three grooves into it
with a V file and use this, do not turn more than a 1/4 turn on each cut
without coming back to clear the thread though.

<steps back in amazement> With my skill level I think it would more
likely I'd end up playing "taps" for my bottom bracket shell if I tried
to drill a hole in it and then cut a thread in the hole. I'm very
impressed with the idea of making your own tap though - resourceful chap
you are! </steps back in amazement>

julesh

Quoted message said:

Sniper8052.

mark said:

"Julesh" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

The cable from the other shifter to the front mech travels a route I've
not seen before - instead of being threaded through a plastic guide
under the bottom bracket it passes above the BB guided by two steel
channels (like tiny inverted roof gutters.) One of these (to the front
of the BB) vaguely lines up with the down tube, the other (to the rear)
guides the cable in the direction of the front mech. I think these have
got bumped as the cable pulls out of the front guide when tension is
put on it to change to the large chainwheel. I'm sure I can "adjust"
these with a small amount of force (they are brazed to the BB) but don't
want to try this more than once as it looks like they might snap off.
Can anyone advise in which direction they should be aligned - or suggest
a better way (Superglueing a more conventional cable guide under the BB?)

Thanks in advance.

Julesh

If the shifter cable develops too much slack when the shifter is put all the
way forward[1], the cable will fall out of the guide as you describe. Make
sure that, when the front shifter is all the way forward (chain on inner
chainring and shift lever all the way to the stop), there is still enough
tension in the shift cable to keep it inside the "inverted roof gutter".
Also, if the front mech is not properly aligned with the chain rings, the
cable may be pulled over the edge of the cable guide, and come out of the
guide entirely.
HTH,

Thanks, but its the other way round. When the lever is forward it's
fine. When the cable is tensioned by pulling the shifter back to move to
the big chainwheel the cable pulls out of the back of front guide.

There's no problem with guide closest to the front mech and if I took
about an inch of slack out of the cable it would work fine. I don't
want to do this as the designer presumably intended that there be two
guides so that the cable does not have to travel round too sharp an angle.

Julesh

Julesh

Ian Smith said:

Julesh said:

The rear mech claims to be a Shimano SIS - I thought these were indexed?
Having thought about this I've come to the conclusion that it probably
the changer, not the mech, that does the indexing? Is there then any
difference between an indexed and non-indexed rear mech? If I wanted
indexed shifting can I just change the downtube shifter from a friction
one to one with some form of click stops (assuming such a thing exists -
or have I got this all wrong?

This index is in teh shifter, but the mech needs to be of an
appropriate type. An indexed shifter pulls a given quantity of cable
per click, and for indexing to work you need a mech that moves the
exact sprocket spacing for the relevant cable pull over its entire
range.

The first issue is that different shifters pull different lengths (for
example, a shimano might pull one length, but a campag a different
length). There are fixes for this related to shifting the attachment
point of teh cable at the mech to increase or decrease leverage, but
you're into arcana there.

Thanks - now I understand. I was hoping more for Arcadia than Arcana so
let's not go there!

Quoted message said:

Second issue is that old old mechs might not be a mechanism that has
linear pull. That is, you might need to pull a bit more cable for 1-2
than for 4-5. I don't know to what extent this is a real problem
(have all those mechs passed away?, were they only 3-speed mechs?)

Personally, I don't bother with indexing on road down-tube shifters.
If the shifter is down there all shifts are controlled shifts ('cos
you've had to move your hands from teh bars, so you're not doing it in
a panic while braking hard turning into a bend). Your fingers will
learn the positions pretty quickly - I find my hand goes down, shifts,
and I've let go of the lever and putting hand back on teh bars before
the chain has settled down, but it always settles down to where it
wants to be. I get more reliable, better shifts that are just as
quick as indexed from friction down-tube levers.

I've got no problem with friction shifters :-)

Quoted message said:

(On mountain bike and trice, however, I use indexed)

regards, Ian SMith

Julesh said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

A freewheel remover works from the inside of the sprocket case. They
come in various types but are often a shaped block to fit the
particular cassette. You would probably have to get two, one for
each wheel. It would be a mirical if two random wheels had the same
cassette mounting 🙁

So possibly my best move might be to take both wheels to my LBS -
where presumably they keep freewheel removers for anything they are
likely to see and pay them to do this?

Good plan, not just to save getting the tools, but to spare you the often
physically difficult job of loosening the freewheels, which can require an
extra long spanner or extra big muscles. Turning the wheel with remover
tool held in a vice helps but it's still not easy if the freewheel is
tight. Unlike with cassette hubs, the harder you pedal (and the bigger
the sprockets), the harder the freewheel gets screwed onto the hub.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Julesh said:

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

A freewheel remover works from the inside of the sprocket case. They
come in various types but are often a shaped block to fit the
particular cassette. You would probably have to get two, one for
each wheel. It would be a mirical if two random wheels had the same
cassette mounting 🙁

So possibly my best move might be to take both wheels to my LBS -
where presumably they keep freewheel removers for anything they are
likely to see and pay them to do this?

Good plan, not just to save getting the tools, but to spare you the often
physically difficult job of loosening the freewheels, which can require an
extra long spanner or extra big muscles. Turning the wheel with remover
tool held in a vice helps but it's still not easy if the freewheel is
tight. Unlike with cassette hubs, the harder you pedal (and the bigger
the sprockets), the harder the freewheel gets screwed onto the hub.

~PB

Thanks to everyone who helped. Now I have some more questions :-)

I now have my new (second hand) set of 27" wheels but these don't have
nice, friendly and easy-to-understand nuts on the end of the axle like
the old ones, but have a hole down the middle of the axle, so I guess
I now need some quick release skewers.

Tonight's questions are...

1) Are all skewers the same size or do I need to find ones that are the
right size for old 27" wheel hubs?

2) I tried the new wheel in the droputs to ensure that it fitted. The
ends of the axle fit neatly into the dropouts but don't protrude outside
at all. Is this how it should be? It seems to make sense for use with
a quick release mechanism but it doesn't really look strong enough. I'm
guessing that when QR pulls this all together the wheel is held in place
by friction between the inside of the dropouts and the cone locknuts -
is this how it works?

3) Brake levers: The bike has drop bars with additional "suicide levers"
and no comfy hoods on the brake levers. I'd like to replace these with
something a little more comfortable. Is it possible to replace these
with the more modern type where the cable comes out of the side and
disappears under the bar tape or is this only compatible with modern
bars? Beyond the fact they look neater do these newer levers have any
other advantages or would I better off just looking for some older "top
cable" ones on Ebay?

4) Brake calipers. The bike has some rubbish side pull brakes at
present. Should I be looking at dual pivot brakes or a decent set of
side pulls - recommendations?

5) Brake cables. Are I right in assuming that it a I buy a brake cable
kit (for example from Wiggle)I'd buy a Shimano road bike kit if I had
Shimano levers and a Campagnolo kit if I had campag levers as it is the
nipple that connects to the lever which is the critical bit and it's
always just bare cable into the clamp on the caliper. Is this right?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer me.

Julesh

Julesh said:

1) Are all skewers the same size or do I need to find ones that are the
right size for old 27" wheel hubs?

Front is shorter than rear, but apart from that, I think they are the
same. I've successfully interchanged 27" 7spd for 700c 7spd

Quoted message said:

2) I tried the new wheel in the droputs to ensure that it fitted. The
ends of the axle fit neatly into the dropouts but don't protrude outside
at all. Is this how it should be? It seems to make sense for use with

Yes

Quoted message said:

3) Brake levers: The bike has drop bars with additional "suicide levers"
and no comfy hoods on the brake levers. I'd like to replace these with
something a little more comfortable. Is it possible to replace these
with the more modern type where the cable comes out of the side and
disappears under the bar tape or is this only compatible with modern
bars? Beyond the fact they look neater do these newer levers have any
other advantages or would I better off just looking for some older "top
cable" ones on Ebay?

No performance advantage that I'm aware of. Changing cables is
slightrly easier with non-aero levers (out the top). Cables which
disappear under the handlebar tape look much nicer though - look for
aero levers.

Quoted message said:

4) Brake calipers. The bike has some rubbish side pull brakes at
present. Should I be looking at dual pivot brakes or a decent set of
side pulls - recommendations?

Why rubbish? I find dual pivot easier to setup but I've not found any
real performace advantage.

Quoted message said:

5) Brake cables. Are I right in assuming that it a I buy a brake cable
kit (for example from Wiggle)I'd buy a Shimano road bike kit if I had
Shimano levers and a Campagnolo kit if I had campag levers as it is the
nipple that connects to the lever which is the critical bit and it's
always just bare cable into the clamp on the caliper. Is this right?

Dunno about Campag stuff. Shimano road levers (drop bars) need a cable
which has a "pear drop" on the end. Barrel-ended cables are for
straight-bar levers.

--
Warning: This user suffers from narcolepppppppppp
ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

"Richard Bates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3) Brake levers: The bike has drop bars with additional "suicide levers"
and no comfy hoods on the brake levers. I'd like to replace these with
something a little more comfortable. Is it possible to replace these
with the more modern type where the cable comes out of the side and
disappears under the bar tape or is this only compatible with modern
bars? Beyond the fact they look neater do these newer levers have any
other advantages or would I better off just looking for some older "top
cable" ones on Ebay?

No performance advantage that I'm aware of. Changing cables is
slightrly easier with non-aero levers (out the top). Cables which
disappear under the handlebar tape look much nicer though - look for
aero levers.

I think aero levers work a bit better, but more importantly I find them a
lot more comfortable. The rubber is different to the old tan stuff, and
manages to be more durable and grippy.

cheers,
clive

Julesh said:

I now have my new (second hand) set of 27" wheels but these don't have
nice, friendly and easy-to-understand nuts on the end of the axle like
the old ones, but have a hole down the middle of the axle, so I
guess I now need some quick release skewers.

Tonight's questions are...

1) Are all skewers the same size or do I need to find ones that are
the right size for old 27" wheel hubs?

Fronts are all the same, rears are not.

See http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_m-o.html#old - Over Locknut Dimension

Quoted message said:

2) I tried the new wheel in the droputs to ensure that it fitted. The
ends of the axle fit neatly into the dropouts but don't protrude
outside at all. Is this how it should be?

Yes, it's important that there is no protrusion. Explanation is on
Sheldon Brown's and Park Tools' websites somewhere.

Quoted message said:

It seems to make sense
for use with
a quick release mechanism but it doesn't really look strong enough.
I'm guessing that when QR pulls this all together the wheel is held
in place
by friction between the inside of the dropouts and the cone locknuts -
is this how it works?

Largely.

Quoted message said:

3) Brake levers: The bike has drop bars with additional "suicide
levers"

I can't believe I used to like those. They're awful compared to modern
levers (with comfy hoods)......

Quoted message said:

and no comfy hoods on the brake levers. I'd like to replace
these with something a little more comfortable. Is it possible to
replace these
with the more modern type where the cable comes out of the side and
disappears under the bar tape or is this only compatible with modern
bars?

Most modern bars have a groove for the cable but that's not essential.
You can tape the cables along your bars if you like.

Quoted message said:

Beyond the fact they look neater do these newer levers have any
other advantages or would I better off just looking for some older
"top cable" ones on Ebay?

Yes, they work better. Pull more cable, I think.

Quoted message said:

4) Brake calipers. The bike has some rubbish side pull brakes at
present. Should I be looking at dual pivot brakes or a decent set of
side pulls - recommendations?

Dual pivot calipers make excellent front brakes: loads of stopping power
without having to strain your hand. I recommend Alhonga brakes if deep
drop is required.

Single pivot calipers have certain advantages for rear brakes -- please
search Google Groups for loads of info/waffle on that.

Quoted message said:

5) Brake cables. Are I right in assuming that it a I buy a brake cable
kit (for example from Wiggle)I'd buy a Shimano road bike kit if I had
Shimano levers and a Campagnolo kit if I had campag levers as it is
the nipple that connects to the lever which is the critical bit and
it's
always just bare cable into the clamp on the caliper. Is this right?

That's right.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Julesh said:

I now have my new (second hand) set of 27" wheels but these don't have
nice, friendly and easy-to-understand nuts on the end of the axle like
the old ones, but have a hole down the middle of the axle, so I
guess I now need some quick release skewers.

Tonight's questions are...

1) Are all skewers the same size or do I need to find ones that are
the right size for old 27" wheel hubs?

Fronts are all the same, rears are not.

See http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_m-o.html#old - Over Locknut Dimension

Firstly thanks for taking the time to answer. I'd read that bit on the
Sheldon Brown site. I suppose the question I'm asking is if I buy a
front/rear pair of road bike skewers are they likely to fit? I think
the answer is yes but I've got a bit confused with all this stuff about
spreading the wheel stays on older frames to accept wheels with wider
cassettes which had led me to think that skewers for new wheels must be
longer than those for 27"

As an associated question is it possible to remove the hollow axle
intended for QR's and simple to replace it with a solid axle?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) I tried the new wheel in the droputs to ensure that it fitted. The
ends of the axle fit neatly into the dropouts but don't protrude
outside at all. Is this how it should be?

Yes, it's important that there is no protrusion. Explanation is on
Sheldon Brown's and Park Tools' websites somewhere.

Quoted message said:

It seems to make sense
for use with
a quick release mechanism but it doesn't really look strong enough.
I'm guessing that when QR pulls this all together the wheel is held
in place
by friction between the inside of the dropouts and the cone locknuts -
is this how it works?

Largely.

Thank you for that. I'm sure there is, in fact, a horribly complex
explanation for why the wheel stays in place which could exercise this
group for weeks and lead to a lot of people getting very heated so that
you for not going there :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3) Brake levers: The bike has drop bars with additional "suicide
levers"

I can't believe I used to like those. They're awful compared to modern
levers (with comfy hoods)......

Quoted message said:

and no comfy hoods on the brake levers. I'd like to replace
these with something a little more comfortable. Is it possible to
replace these
with the more modern type where the cable comes out of the side and
disappears under the bar tape or is this only compatible with modern
bars?

Most modern bars have a groove for the cable but that's not essential.
You can tape the cables along your bars if you like.

I had a feeling I'd read something somewhere about there being a groove
in bars for that purpose so I'm glad to know it isn't necessary.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Beyond the fact they look neater do these newer levers have any
other advantages or would I better off just looking for some older
"top cable" ones on Ebay?

Yes, they work better. Pull more cable, I think.

Quoted message said:

4) Brake calipers. The bike has some rubbish side pull brakes at
present. Should I be looking at dual pivot brakes or a decent set of
side pulls - recommendations?

Dual pivot calipers make excellent front brakes: loads of stopping power
without having to strain your hand. I recommend Alhonga brakes if deep
drop is required.

It isn't at present but is probably something I should consider as I
believe this will allow me to move to 700c wheels in future?

Quoted message said:

Single pivot calipers have certain advantages for rear brakes -- please
search Google Groups for loads of info/waffle on that.

I will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5) Brake cables. Are I right in assuming that it a I buy a brake cable
kit (for example from Wiggle)I'd buy a Shimano road bike kit if I had
Shimano levers and a Campagnolo kit if I had campag levers as it is
the nipple that connects to the lever which is the critical bit and
it's
always just bare cable into the clamp on the caliper. Is this right?

That's right.

~PB

Excellent. Thanks again

Julesh

Richard Bates [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Why rubbish? I find dual pivot easier to setup but I've not found any
real performace advantage.

I have. My DP brakes have consistantly outperformed any single pivots /
centrepulls that I've had fitted. They also tend to self-centre more
reliably reducing brake rub.

Jon

Julesh said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) Are all skewers the same size or do I need to find ones that are
the right size for old 27" wheel hubs?

Fronts are all the same, rears are not.

See http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_m-o.html#old - Over Locknut
Dimension

Firstly thanks for taking the time to answer.

You're welcome, but sorry I didn't post more detail......

Quoted message said:

I'd read that bit on the
Sheldon Brown site. I suppose the question I'm asking is if I buy a
front/rear pair of road bike skewers are they likely to fit? I think
the answer is yes

I think: no.

Quoted message said:

but I've got a bit confused with all this stuff
about spreading the wheel stays on older frames to accept wheels with
wider cassettes which had led me to think that skewers for new wheels
must be longer than those for 27"

You can't just buy any old skewers because different length axles are used
for different rear wheels. 27" is not relevant, except hubs of 27" wheels
aren't likely to be 130 or 135mm. Could be 126 or less (a lot were
126mm). How about taking the rear wheel to a bike shop and trying what
they've got--they're bound of have some cheap.

There's sometimes some leeway if enough of the skewer is threaded and the
nut is drilled & threaded all the way through.

Quoted message said:

As an associated question is it possible to remove the hollow axle
intended for QR's and simple to replace it with a solid axle?

I'm not sure. It's not always simple to replace an axle with one of the
same type! QR's are so much better anyway, except for the security
aspect, though there is a solution for that (for front hubs and 130 to
135mm rear hubs): Tranz X security skewers @ £8 off eBay.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) I tried the new wheel in the droputs to ensure that it fitted.
The ends of the axle fit neatly into the dropouts but don't protrude
outside at all. Is this how it should be?

Yes, it's important that there is no protrusion. Explanation is on
Sheldon Brown's and Park Tools' websites somewhere.

Quoted message said:

It seems to make sense
for use with
a quick release mechanism but it doesn't really look strong enough.
I'm guessing that when QR pulls this all together the wheel is held
in place
by friction between the inside of the dropouts and the cone
locknuts - is this how it works?

Largely.

Thank you for that. I'm sure there is, in fact, a horribly complex
explanation for why the wheel stays in place which could exercise this
group for weeks and lead to a lot of people getting very heated so
that you for not going there :-)

No, it really is mostly down to friction :-) Gravity also helps a bit
when you're not wheelying or endoing.

~PB

Jon Senior said:

Richard Bates [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Why rubbish? I find dual pivot easier to setup but I've not found any
real performace advantage.

I have. My DP brakes have consistantly outperformed any single pivots /
centrepulls that I've had fitted. They also tend to self-centre more
reliably reducing brake rub.

Jon

Hello,
Just to clarify. My new second-hand bike has side pulls which aren't
very nice. I'm not trying to claim that for all side pulls as I'm sure
some are fine examples of the brake makers art.

As a born again bike maintainer I have hideous memories of trying to
keep the b*****s aligned and not rubbing the rim from when I was a small
person and had heard rumours that these new-fangled dual-pivot jobbies
were less prone to this misbehaviour.

Julesh