Adjusting a sturmer archer?

elyob said:

I've got a Raleigh Chiltern and have had problems with the gears slipping
occasionally. Basically, if I move from 3rd to 2nd it slips, so I tend to
go to 1st and back up to 2nd. However, that slipped once tonight and I
thought I ought to work out the reasons why rather than ignore it.

So, any suggestions, and what tools should I take? Getting it into first
is right up against the handlebars, so maybe this can be adjusted too?

Tools: fingers, eyeball, possibly a pair of pliers.

Instructions: http://www.toehead.plus.com/stmain.htm

If you fancy completely overhauling it the official directions and parts
lists are on the web too:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/samaintind.htm

Part available here: http://www.oldbiketrader.co.uk/

5 minute job.

Mike

"elyob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've got a Raleigh Chiltern and have had problems with the gears slipping
occasionally. Basically, if I move from 3rd to 2nd it slips, so I tend to
go to 1st and back up to 2nd. However, that slipped once tonight and I
thought I ought to work out the reasons why rather than ignore it.

So, any suggestions, and what tools should I take? Getting it into first
is right up against the handlebars, so maybe this can be adjusted too?

Nick

I understand the original Sturmer Archer was William Tell.... ;-)
(....I'll get me coat)

Mike Causer said:

elyob said:

I've got a Raleigh Chiltern and have had problems with the gears slipping
occasionally. Basically, if I move from 3rd to 2nd it slips, so I tend to
go to 1st and back up to 2nd. However, that slipped once tonight and I
thought I ought to work out the reasons why rather than ignore it.

So, any suggestions, and what tools should I take? Getting it into first
is right up against the handlebars, so maybe this can be adjusted too?

Tools: fingers, eyeball, possibly a pair of pliers.

If the adjuster hasn't been moved for thirty years, possibly two pairs of
pliers to twist in opposite directions.

Quoted message said:

Instructions: http://www.toehead.plus.com/stmain.htm

Also http://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html#sturmey

Make sure the cable is unkinked and clean too - second gear behaving
differently depending which direction you come from could be a sticky
cable. But it could just be the normal slight play meaning you need to
tighten the cable slightly to move the neutral towards 3rd (or it could
be worn internals, in which has Mike's links to full disassembly will be
useful).

"Mike Causer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

elyob said:

I've got a Raleigh Chiltern and have had problems with the gears slipping
occasionally. Basically, if I move from 3rd to 2nd it slips, so I tend to
go to 1st and back up to 2nd. However, that slipped once tonight and I
thought I ought to work out the reasons why rather than ignore it.

So, any suggestions, and what tools should I take? Getting it into first
is right up against the handlebars, so maybe this can be adjusted too?

Tools: fingers, eyeball, possibly a pair of pliers.

Instructions: http://www.toehead.plus.com/stmain.htm

If you fancy completely overhauling it the official directions and parts
lists are on the web too:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/samaintind.htm

Part available here: http://www.oldbiketrader.co.uk/

5 minute job.

I had a read through but not much help. Basically the bike has hardly been
used and now is getting daily use. However the second gear slip is really
dangerous and really annoying. I can go for five minutes and then suddenly
it goes and I'm nearly off as I'm pushing down on nothing. Any advice on
this problem?

The gear shifters sometimes slip, so it may be a slackness and I intend to
tighten this up soon (no tools where the bike is), although it hardly moves
and I always return to original place.

Next .. "add a couple of drops of oil" .. where? is there an access hole for
getting oil inside? Is my winter lube okay or is that too thick. (I've got
some spray lube and a bottle lube available).

Thanks

elyob said:

"Mike Causer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

elyob said:

I've got a Raleigh Chiltern and have had problems with the gears slipping
occasionally. Basically, if I move from 3rd to 2nd it slips, so I tend to
go to 1st and back up to 2nd. However, that slipped once tonight and I
thought I ought to work out the reasons why rather than ignore it.

So, any suggestions, and what tools should I take? Getting it into first
is right up against the handlebars, so maybe this can be adjusted too?

Tools: fingers, eyeball, possibly a pair of pliers.

Instructions: http://www.toehead.plus.com/stmain.htm

If you fancy completely overhauling it the official directions and parts
lists are on the web too:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/samaintind.htm

Part available here: http://www.oldbiketrader.co.uk/

5 minute job.

I had a read through but not much help. Basically the bike has hardly been
used and now is getting daily use. However the second gear slip is really
dangerous and really annoying. I can go for five minutes and then suddenly
it goes and I'm nearly off as I'm pushing down on nothing. Any advice on
this problem?

The gear shifters sometimes slip, so it may be a slackness and I intend to
tighten this up soon (no tools where the bike is), although it hardly moves
and I always return to original place.

Next .. "add a couple of drops of oil" .. where? is there an access hole for
getting oil inside? Is my winter lube okay or is that too thick. (I've got
some spray lube and a bottle lube available).

Thanks

tighten the adjusterbarrel (screws on the chain coming from the hub) a
full turn to shorten the cable and check that you still can engage first
gear without undue strain. If it still slips in second gear tighten a
bit more

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

elyob said:

I had a read through but not much help. Basically the bike has hardly been
used and now is getting daily use. However the second gear slip is really
dangerous and really annoying. I can go for five minutes and then suddenly
it goes and I'm nearly off as I'm pushing down on nothing. Any advice on
this problem?

The gear shifters sometimes slip, so it may be a slackness and I intend to
tighten this up soon (no tools where the bike is), although it hardly
moves and I always return to original place.

Next .. "add a couple of drops of oil" .. where? is there an access hole
for getting oil inside? Is my winter lube okay or is that too thick. (I've
got some spray lube and a bottle lube available).

You haven't said which model S-A you have -- and they've made quite a few
in the last 100+ years....

On all the "traditional", ie Nottingham-made models, there is a small cap
on the body that lifts (don't worry, it's attached) to reveal a small hole
into which you put 3in1 or something of similar viscosity. While the can
of 3in1 is in your hand, the trigger (gear lever) will benefit from a
couple of drops, and so will the cable. Also make sure the small chain
that goes into the hub has free movement in all its links.

After doing all this lubing would I unscrew the cable from the little
chain at the hub and while applying hand tension to the cable-end make
sure that it runs smoothly in both directions, and that the trigger moves
smoothly between positions too. Then reconnect the chain to the wire and
follow the instructions for the number of speeds you have on getting the
"indicator rod" into the right position poking out of the non-cable side
of the hub.

If it still slips in one gear try moving the cable/chain joint a turn in
each direction to see if it improves. If not the internals may be
b*ggered.

I offer this information after only 6 months with my first ever S-A
equiped bike (50 years after starting cycling!), but they are not hard to
adjust, and with the instructions now available I would dismantle one if
necessary.

Mike
Mike

Mike Causer said:

elyob said:

I had a read through but not much help. Basically the bike has hardly been
used and now is getting daily use. However the second gear slip is really
dangerous and really annoying. I can go for five minutes and then suddenly
it goes and I'm nearly off as I'm pushing down on nothing. Any advice on
this problem?

The gear shifters sometimes slip, so it may be a slackness and I intend to
tighten this up soon (no tools where the bike is), although it hardly
moves and I always return to original place.

Next .. "add a couple of drops of oil" .. where? is there an access hole
for getting oil inside? Is my winter lube okay or is that too thick. (I've
got some spray lube and a bottle lube available).

You haven't said which model S-A you have -- and they've made quite a few
in the last 100+ years....

On all the "traditional", ie Nottingham-made models, there is a small cap
on the body that lifts (don't worry, it's attached) to reveal a small hole
into which you put 3in1 or something of similar viscosity.

The Raleigh Chiltern is a current model (something I'd missed when I said
two pliers might be needed if the adjuster hasn't been touched for years),
so it could well be one of the newer ones without an oil hole. I believe
they are greased when new and have to be dismantled to be regreased but
the grease is expected to last for some time.
See e.g. http://www.moultoneers.net/mcapb06.html

http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html#lubrication does say
"3-speed hubs always need oil lubrication" but it also says
"Modern bikes use grease for lubrication", so maybe he isn't considering
modern 3-speeds.)

In article said:

so it could well be one of the newer ones without an oil hole. I believe
they are greased when new and have to be dismantled to be regreased but
the grease is expected to last for some time.
See e.g. http://www.moultoneers.net/mcapb06.html

http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html#lubrication does say
"3-speed hubs always need oil lubrication" but it also says
"Modern bikes use grease for lubrication", so maybe he isn't considering
modern 3-speeds.)

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/4667f6edfaa12204?&hl=en
has Sheldon saying
'Ectually, they converted to "lifetime" grease lubrication several years ago,
and stopped providing the oil port. '
(And Jobst with his usual rant about how S-A hubs are dangerous and useless
and deserved to die along with the rest of the UK manufacturing industry.)

In article <[email hidden]>, elyob

Quoted message said:

The gear shifters sometimes slip, so it may be a slackness and I
intend to tighten this up soon (no tools where the bike is),
although it hardly moves and I always return to original place.

This problem is normally caused by the cable or the toggle chain
slipping - make sure it runs easily.

and you don't need tools to adjust an SA gear.

In article <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tighten the adjusterbarrel (screws on the chain coming from the
hub) a full turn to shorten the cable and check that you still can
engage first gear without undue strain. If it still slips in second
gear tighten a bit more

In second gear the shoulder on the indicator rod should be level with
the end of the axle - hit and miss trials are not necessary - always
assuming that the correct indicator rod is fitted.

In article
<[email hidden]>, Mike

Causer said:

On all the "traditional", ie Nottingham-made models, there is a
small cap on the body that lifts (don't worry, it's attached) to
reveal a small hole into which you put 3in1 or something of similar
viscosity

Later models don't have an oil hole but I don't remember when they
stopped.

In article <[email hidden]>
Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

(And Jobst with his usual rant about how S-A hubs are dangerous and useless
and deserved to die along with the rest of the UK manufacturing industry.)

What is that guy's problem? Years ago I acquired a set of SA Elite 5-
speed internals (I'd replaced them under warranty, the aupplier didn't
want them back and I fixed them with a couple of parts) which I stuck in
a steel shell and fitted to one of my hack bikes. As I didn't have the
(expensive) 5 speed shifter I just used downtube friction levers which
worked pretty well - I didn't always get the shifts spot-on so they
slipped occasionally, but it really wasn't dangerous, certainly nowhere
near as bad as a something like a pedal breaking, and I've had more
interesting experiences riding fixed - would he ban that too?

In article said:

Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

(And Jobst with his usual rant about how S-A hubs are dangerous and useless
and deserved to die along with the rest of the UK manufacturing industry.)

What is that guy's problem? Years ago I acquired a set of SA Elite 5-
speed internals (I'd replaced them under warranty, the aupplier didn't
want them back and I fixed them with a couple of parts) which I stuck in
a steel shell and fitted to one of my hack bikes. As I didn't have the
(expensive) 5 speed shifter I just used downtube friction levers which
worked pretty well - I didn't always get the shifts spot-on so they
slipped occasionally

If you stand up and sprint hard in top gear, even a well adjusted unworn
S-A can slip out of gear with much the same effect as a crank breaking
(something else that happens more often to Jobst than most riders:
http://yarchive.net/bike/crank_break.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/breaking-cranks.html).

See http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html with note
from Sheldon at the bottom about it not affecting most users while agreeing
that what Jobst says is technically true.

elyob said:

I had a read through but not much help. Basically the bike has hardly been
used and now is getting daily use. However the second gear slip is really
dangerous and really annoying. I can go for five minutes and then suddenly
it goes and I'm nearly off as I'm pushing down on nothing. Any advice on
this problem?

With that sort of delay, I reckon it's worn inside. The original
problem, given that it happened when you changed down but not when you
changed up, was probably down to being slightly out of adjustment and
the cable not moving freely. But every time that "suddenly it goes"
you're likely to be doing damage to the engagement dogs - so the problem
gets worse. That's why you've started getting the problem on the up
change too. Damaged dogs on the gear ring (part no K511A) would be my bet.

--
Andrew

Sandy Morton said:

In second gear the shoulder on the indicator rod should be level with
the end of the axle - hit and miss trials are not necessary - always
assuming that the correct indicator rod is fitted.

....and that the indicator rod is fully screwed into the axle key.

--
Andrew

In article said:

Sandy Morton said:

In second gear the shoulder on the indicator rod should be level with
the end of the axle - hit and miss trials are not necessary - always
assuming that the correct indicator rod is fitted.

...and that the indicator rod is fully screwed into the axle key.

Not quite fully - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html#sturmey
"When you install an indicator spindle, screw it in finger tight, then back
it off 1/2 turn. It should not be bottomed out on its internal threads, so
that it can swing freely to face the cable."

In article <[email hidden]>

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

(And Jobst with his usual rant about how S-A hubs are dangerous and useless
and deserved to die along with the rest of the UK manufacturing industry.)

What is that guy's problem? Years ago I acquired a set of SA Elite 5-
speed internals (I'd replaced them under warranty, the aupplier didn't
want them back and I fixed them with a couple of parts) which I stuck in
a steel shell and fitted to one of my hack bikes. As I didn't have the
(expensive) 5 speed shifter I just used downtube friction levers which
worked pretty well - I didn't always get the shifts spot-on so they
slipped occasionally

If you stand up and sprint hard in top gear, even a well adjusted unworn
S-A can slip out of gear with much the same effect as a crank breaking

It's nothing like a crank breaking - when gears slip there's a good
chance that both feet are still on the pedals (and the pedals are still
attached to the bike).

Quoted message said:

(something else that happens more often to Jobst than most riders:
http://yarchive.net/bike/crank_break.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/breaking-cranks.html).

See http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html with note
from Sheldon at the bottom about it not affecting most users while agreeing
that what Jobst says is technically true.

"Most riders of these hubs do not have that sort of riding style, and
find the Sturmey-Archer AW to be possibly the most durable and reliable
bicycle gear shifting mechanism ever."
So they just don't suit JB - he should get over it. I don't see where
he gets "The result is that the rider, if standing, dives over the bars,
with the bicycle following." The only time I've dived over the bars is
as a result attempting off-road descents beyond my ability, never as a
result of the transmission suddenly letting go - as well as slipping SA
hubs I've had chains and pedals break at full whack[1] which only
resulted in a nasty jolt and wobble.

[1] Not quite Germolene Abdoujaparov stylee, but I used to be pretty
powerful.

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Sandy Morton said:

In second gear the shoulder on the indicator rod should be level with
the end of the axle - hit and miss trials are not necessary - always
assuming that the correct indicator rod is fitted.

...and that the indicator rod is fully screwed into the axle key.

Not quite fully - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html#sturmey
"When you install an indicator spindle, screw it in finger tight, then back
it off 1/2 turn. It should not be bottomed out on its internal threads, so
that it can swing freely to face the cable."

Yes, I realised just after I posted that I should have put that bit in
too. Though it does give me the chance to say the back off 1/2 turn
doesn't apply to hubs with a two-piece indicator rod: K series, 4-speed,
early SW, &c, &c.

--
Andrew

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>

Alan Braggins said:

If you stand up and sprint hard in top gear, even a well adjusted unworn
S-A can slip out of gear with much the same effect as a crank breaking

It's nothing like a crank breaking - when gears slip there's a good
chance that both feet are still on the pedals (and the pedals are still
attached to the bike).

Although when I had a chain come off the front ring just as I was
putting full power on, standing up, I ended up in a mess on the ground.
The sudden removal of any significant resistance had thrown me
completely off balance.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in
session." (Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866.)