Advice: pavement cycling/child

PhilD said:

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised? Should he ride on the pavement
(carefully), even though it's not allowed? If so, at what point does
acceptable pavement riding become unacceptable? Age 8? 10? 18?

Actually, at the moment I have him ride on the pavement and I ride at
his speed on the road. On quieter roads I have him ride on the road to
get used to traffic, having to look and pay attention, and so on. He's
good at signals, but useless at looking behind at the moment!

My hypothetical 17-year old son is the same in the car - hopeless at
observation, so I have him drive on the pavement. Far safer both for him
and other road users, wouldn't you say?

Seriously, I would be happy jogging beside a young cycling child on a
clear wide pavement. I would make them stop if there were any oncoming
pedestrians; and walk if there were any reasonable chance of pedestrians
emerging from concealed drives.

I rode unsupervised on our quiet residential road from age 7 with
pre-arranged boundaries, and unsupervised on any road from age 12. Of
course, this was in the late 70s, before the time in the mid to late 90s
when cycling seems to have become perceived as an extreme danger sport.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/

PhilD said:

First, let's start with the highway code. Regulation 54: "You MUST NOT
cycle on a pavement". That I understand and accept.

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised? Should he ride on the pavement
(carefully), even though it's not allowed? If so, at what point does
acceptable pavement riding become unacceptable? Age 8? 10? 18?

According to the UK Department of Transport:

"Children under the age of 10 should not be allowed to cycle on
the road."

(http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/hedgehogs/hedgehogs02.htm)

PhilD said:

First, let's start with the highway code. Regulation 54: "You MUST NOT
cycle on a pavement". That I understand and accept.

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised? Should he ride on the pavement
(carefully), even though it's not allowed? If so, at what point does
acceptable pavement riding become unacceptable? Age 8? 10? 18?

He would not be breaking the law riding on the pavement, as he is under
the age of criminal responsibility.

I doubt very much that he would be charged with an offence even were he
above that age, provided he was riding sensibly.

R.

Dave said:

A similar question if I may. At what age would you consider it "safe" to
cycle on a road - say in a road busy town, a fairly quiet built up area and
in the countryside.

There is no _set_ age to be "safe" cycling on the road. There are only
advisory guidelines set by bodies such as the DfT. Regrettably many local
authorities and similar bodies try to enforce them as if they were the law.

What is most important is the competence of the rider, whether they be child
or adult. I have seen many 9-year olds who are far more competent on the road
than many adults.

I would strongly advise _all_ cyclists of whatever age to take a National
Standard training course. Even 'seasoned' cyclists may learn a lot.

John B

PhilD said:

First, let's start with the highway code. Regulation 54: "You MUST NOT
cycle on a pavement". That I understand and accept.

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised? Should he ride on the pavement
(carefully), even though it's not allowed? If so, at what point does
acceptable pavement riding become unacceptable? Age 8? 10? 18?

Actually, at the moment I have him ride on the pavement and I ride at
his speed on the road. On quieter roads I have him ride on the road to
get used to traffic, having to look and pay attention, and so on. He's
good at signals, but useless at looking behind at the moment!

My children have both cycled on the road since 4 1/2 yo. I always ride
behind them and further from the kerb. We live in a rural OXON location
and the lanes are suitable. The 8 yo is now able to cycle around the
village on roads with minimal supervision and correct road placement
and indication. I would be happy to cycle with him through a town. The
5 1/2 yo cycles to school with me, 5 miles on country lanes, with a
walk across the village by-pass.

There are reports that children under 10 are unable to judge distance
and speed accurately and this means they can't appreciate cars on the
road. Hence no school cycle training until year 6.

I think this is highly child-dependent. You should see my son play
tennis and cricket. If he can hit a fast moving ball, then he can judge
speed. You can test this by standing next to a busy road and asking the
child when they think it is safe to cross - assuming that you can judge
yourself :-)

YMMV,

regards,
daren
--
remove outer garment for reply

Very good question. I ride on quiet roads with my 7 year old closely
supervised but she's certainly not ready for busy traffic even with close
supervision so we sometimes ride short stretches of pavement between quiet
bits.

In message <[email hidden]>,
PhilD <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

First, let's start with the highway code. Regulation 54: "You MUST NOT
cycle on a pavement". That I understand and accept.

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised? Should he ride on the pavement
(carefully), even though it's not allowed? If so, at what point does
acceptable pavement riding become unacceptable? Age 8? 10? 18?

Actually, at the moment I have him ride on the pavement and I ride at
his speed on the road. On quieter roads I have him ride on the road to
get used to traffic, having to look and pay attention, and so on. He's
good at signals, but useless at looking behind at the moment!

PhilD

Your question actually points out the bollocks of the law as it actually
stands.

Personally I have no problem with occasional cycling on pavements as
long as, and I stress this, the cyclist of whatever age accepts that the
pedestrians have right of way and behaves appropriately. The upshot of
this is that it is usually more convenient to cycle on the roads than
pavements.

_An Anecdote to Highlight the Current Impractical Laws_

Last Sunday I was cycling with my boys on the shared use route through
my local park. There were so many pedestrians (and particularly their
dogs) that it was frankly dangerous. On leaving the park we exited onto
a fast dual carriageway. Do you know something? We cycled on the empty
pedestrian-free pavement as this was safer for my children.

So in the park we were risking accident but legal. Outside the park we
were safe but illegal. Its beyond me. My advise, just cycle with
consideration for pedestrians (and other road users for that matter) and
cycle where it seem appropriate. Most of the time this will be the road
but not always.

Bob
--
Bob Downie
Downie GeoScience Ltd.
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

POHB said:

Very good question. I ride on quiet roads with my 7 year old closely
supervised but she's certainly not ready for busy traffic even with
close supervision so we sometimes ride short stretches of pavement
between quiet bits.

I do this too, mind you my situation is slightly different as my
youngest (11) is delayed, "special" school all the rest however there
are some roads around here where there are no footpaths/pavements so he
has to go on the roads but he feels (and I feel he is) safer away from
the (other) traffic,so he spends a lot of his time on pavements but if
the road is relatively quiet or there is no pavement handy he cycles on
the road, was like this with the eldest too but he now cycles on his
own.
Would say it is pretty much like when do you feel safe letting them
walk to clubs in the evening? When do you feel they are old enough to
get the bus into town? Am unsure about the legalities of the situation
but it would take a very poor decision process to try and prosecute a
child for pavement cycling (provided they give way to peds and all that
good stuff).
--
This post contains no hidden meanings, no implications and certainly no
hidden agendas so it should be taken at face value. The wrong words
may be used this is due to my limitations with the English language .

PhilD said:

First, let's start with the highway code. Regulation 54: "You MUST NOT
cycle on a pavement". That I understand and accept.

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised? Should he ride on the pavement
(carefully), even though it's not allowed? If so, at what point does
acceptable pavement riding become unacceptable? Age 8? 10? 18?

I suggest to parents that once children have reached Level 2 of the
National Standards for Cycling they are ready to cycle to school on
roads unaccompanied. Before that, if they want their child to cycle
to school unaccompanied, I suggest that it is very unlikely for a
policeman to prevent them from cycling responsibly on the pavement.

Children of any age can cycle on the road if accompanied.
--
Let us have a moment of silence for all Americans who
are now stuck in traffic on their way to a health club
to ride a stationary bicycle. -
Congressman Earl Blumenauer (Oregon)

Bob Downie said:

Quoted message said:

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised? Should he ride on the pavement
(carefully), even though it's not allowed? If so, at what point does
acceptable pavement riding become unacceptable? Age 8? 10? 18?

Actually, at the moment I have him ride on the pavement and I ride at
his speed on the road. On quieter roads I have him ride on the road to
get used to traffic, having to look and pay attention, and so on. He's
good at signals, but useless at looking behind at the moment!

It is a judgement call. My daughter (now 9) is allowed to ride on her
own on the pavement. She hasn't had as much practice as I would have
liked on the road yet (we live on a busy A road). My NYR is to get her
out and happy on the road so that she can ride safely on her own. At
present when we ride together we do use the road, and walk on the
pavement when it is deemed that her confidence in her abilities does
not meet that required for the road conditions.

Roads do seem much busier now than when I learned to ride in London
<cough> years ago. It is also fairly hilly which can be a bit
unnerving.

...d

Quoted message said:

On leaving the park we exited onto a fast dual carriageway. Do you know something? We cycled on the empty
pedestrian-free pavement

I can remember being caught up by a lorry on a narrow section of the
busy A6. Continuous traffic in the other lane meant he couldn't
overtake me. He beeped and flashed his lights. So at the earliest
opportunity I rode onto the empty pavement (rural area) and stayed
there until the stream of traffic behind him had all passed me.

Illegal behaviour or sensible response to a traffic hazard?

POHB said:

Very good question. I ride on quiet roads with my 7 year old closely
supervised but she's certainly not ready for busy traffic even with close
supervision so we sometimes ride short stretches of pavement between quiet
bits.

IMO that is the right approach. We did the same with our youngsters, starting
with short stretches of road at about 5/6.
By 8 most could ride quite competently on most roads under supervision. The
earlier children are taught about traffic and how to judge speeds the better
- ISTR there was a study (in Scotland) that confirmed this.

I am finding it sad that I'm coming across more and more early teenagers who
cannot ride a bike at all, mainly as a result of over-protective parents -
and not least the school run.
Unfortunately at this age many also hit the 'uncool factor' about learning to
ride and the next 'step is for the parent to buy them their first car for the
17th birthday :-(

<goes off at tangent>
The ability to be independent is being lost amongst many of today's
youngsters - and it is not of their own choosing.

John B

Quoted message said:

According to the UK Department of Transport:

"Children under the age of 10 should not be allowed to cycle on
the road."

(http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/hedgehogs/hedgehogs02.htm)

Lets hope they meant unaccompanied. Mind, I was out on my own much earlier
than that. Guess it all depends on the training they've been given -
parents taught me ok.

Quoted message said:

I can remember being caught up by a lorry on a narrow section of the
busy A6. Continuous traffic in the other lane meant he couldn't
overtake me. He beeped and flashed his lights. So at the earliest
opportunity I rode onto the empty pavement (rural area) and stayed
there until the stream of traffic behind him had all passed me.

Illegal behaviour or sensible response to a traffic hazard?

Both, as acknowledged by the politcian who introduced fines for riding on
the pavement. AFAIK it's been illegal since 18-something, so there was
presumably no problem with busy roads then).

in message <[email hidden]>, PhilD

(') said:

First, let's start with the highway code. Regulation 54: "You MUST NOT
cycle on a pavement". That I understand and accept.

But what about my 6-year-old? Is it reasonable, or expected, for him
to ride on the road, even supervised?

It depends where you are, and what drivers in your area are like. Here,
kids that age cycle a couple of miles to school along the main A road,
but then the traffic volumes on our 'main A road' may not compare to
those on yours. On quiet roads, the sooner he gets used to using the
road the better, I would have thought - when supervised, of course.

Quoted message said:

Actually, at the moment I have him ride on the pavement and I ride at
his speed on the road. On quieter roads I have him ride on the road to
get used to traffic, having to look and pay attention, and so on. He's
good at signals, but useless at looking behind at the moment!

You should be /very/ careful at junctions because your child will not be
in drivers' sight lines and is likely not to be noticed.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; L'etat c'est moi -- Louis XVI
;; I... we... the Government -- Tony Blair

On 31 Jan 2006 09:13:23 -0800 someone who may be
[email hidden] wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I can remember being caught up by a lorry on a narrow section of the
busy A6. Continuous traffic in the other lane meant he couldn't
overtake me. He beeped and flashed his lights. So at the earliest
opportunity I rode onto the empty pavement (rural area) and stayed
there until the stream of traffic behind him had all passed me.

Illegal behaviour or sensible response to a traffic hazard?

Certainly illegal behaviour by the lorry driver.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

soup said:

Would say it is pretty much like when do you feel safe letting them
walk to clubs in the evening? When do you feel they are old enough to
get the bus into town? Am unsure about the legalities of the situation
but it would take a very poor decision process to try and prosecute a
child for pavement cycling (provided they give way to peds and all that
good stuff).

While lower courts may be compelled to uphold the law for a child
cycling on the pavement, I suspect a higher court would overturn any
finding of guilt on appeal, and the law would be amended.
--
Let us have a moment of silence for all Americans who
are now stuck in traffic on their way to a health club
to ride a stationary bicycle. -
Congressman Earl Blumenauer (Oregon)

Quoted message said:

I can remember being caught up by a lorry on a narrow section of the
busy A6. Continuous traffic in the other lane meant he couldn't
overtake me. He beeped and flashed his lights. So at the earliest
opportunity I rode onto the empty pavement (rural area) and stayed
there until the stream of traffic behind him had all passed me.

Illegal behaviour or sensible response to a traffic hazard?

Illegal behaviour by him in assaulting you.

Illegal behaviour by you in riding on the pavement, although I can
understand why you did it, and I may well have done the same once upon a
time in my life.

Now, I would probably pull over where it was safe to do so, take his
number and whatever other details I could get from the side of the
lorry, and raise merry hell (in a politely relentless way) with the
police and his company. Larger companies tend to take a very dim view
of such behaviour by their drivers, although depending on the layers of
bureaucracy you might not get an acknowledgment of such. An effective
tactic, where applicable, is also to find out if the transport company
has any contracts with a third party, making sure the third party is
aware of the driver's antics, and then making sure the transport company
is aware you've informed the third party. They tend to start caring
about aggressive behaviour towards cyclists if it thinks it might affect
their contract renewal.

R.

Simon Brooke said:

I think one of the principle reasons for weaning children onto riding on
the roads as early as possible is simply that it is safer for them.

I would concur: learning to ride a three-speed Chinese bicycle among
the lorries of the Taiping to Kamunting road at the age of 11 was most
instructional in my case. That might sound fearsome but Malaya in 1958
had a brilliant cycling culture now sadly swamped by the Beast.

Pete
--
mono<lose~this>treme@ntl{and^this!]world.com