Advice please: touring/audax bike

Thus spake kat <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

hi - I have been doing all my cycling on a cheapo hybrid, which has so far been pretty good for
commuting, touring, day rides etc, but I think it's time to upgrade to a proper tourer.

Quoted message said:

The thing is I DON'T want to get the bog-standard variety with drops - prefer a more upright
riding position and V-brakes, with butterfly bars or similar. I expect to be doing some fully
loaded touring on it, so it needs to be good quality (though not expedition standard exactly), but
also day rides and audax's, so not too heavy and tank-like.

Quoted message said:

So far have considered a Thorn or an Orbit of some kind, but perhaps Roberts or other custom
builders are better?

You would probably be happy with any of these but I think you should choose something you can get
from a shop that's not too far from you. That way:

1) You can talk to a Real Person™
2) You can get measured up & fitted proprely
3) You can return for servicing & adjustments

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden] Edgware.

kat said:

hi - I have been doing all my cycling on a cheapo hybrid, which has so far been pretty good for
commuting, touring, day rides etc, but I think it's time to upgrade to a proper tourer.

The thing is I DON'T want to get the bog-standard variety with drops - prefer a more upright
riding position and V-brakes, with butterfly bars or similar. I expect to be doing some fully
loaded touring on it, so it needs to be good quality (though not expedition standard exactly), but
also day rides and audax's, so not too heavy and tank-like.

So far have considered a Thorn or an Orbit of some kind, but perhaps Roberts or other custom
builders are better?

IMO Roberts are quite a lot better and would certainly be able to build a machine to your
requirements. They built one for my wife almost to the specs you mention (but not the bars) and it
is superb.

Their website gives a taster of what they do, but as they only produce custom machines then its
always best to chat through your detailed requirements with them. robertscycles.comrobertscycles.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Maybe should add I am a girly, so shorter top tube etc is a necessity.

Roberts have a lot of expertise in producing women's bikes.

John B

kat <[email hidden]> wrote:

: The thing is I DON'T want to get the bog-standard variety with drops - prefer a more upright
: riding position and V-brakes, with butterfly bars or similar. I expect to be doing some fully
: loaded touring on it, so it

Have a look at German or Dutch brands. Pretty much all German or Dutch tourers use bikes exactly
like you describe.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ Power is delightful. Absolute power is absolutely delightful -
Lord Lester

kat said:

hi - I have been doing all my cycling on a cheapo hybrid, which has so far been pretty good for
commuting, touring, day rides etc, but I think it's time to upgrade to a proper tourer.

The thing is I DON'T want to get the bog-standard variety with drops - prefer a more upright
riding position and V-brakes, with butterfly bars or similar.

Or if you don't want to go down the Galaxy-a-like path you could get a bit more radical and get a
recumbent tourer, which is what I've done and no regrets at all. For more info on what I have
(Streetmachine GT) see kinetics.org.ukstreetmachine.htmlOpen ↗ or
bikefix.co.uksm.htmlOpen ↗ for web pages from the main UK dealers, either of whom will let you
try a demo machine, or the manufacturer's site is
hpvelotechnik.comindex e.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I expect to be doing some fully loaded touring on it, so it needs to be good quality (though not
expedition standard exactly), but also day rides and audax's, so not too heavy and tank-like.

The SMGT *is* built like a tank, but OTOH it's incredibly comfortable and with its superior
aerodynamics to a flat bar upright you're not catching quite so much drag, so it's swings and
roundabouts on effort of riding. And it carries luggage better than any other bike I've ever used,
with the ability to put heavy stuff under the rider right between the two wheels where handling is
hardly affected at all. When I say "comfortable" I mean a whole different league to even the most
comfortable saddle on an upright. And no weight on your arms and wrists, which means the only
fatigue you ever get is in your legs. You really have to experience it to believe how much
difference it can make, especially over long rides.

Quoted message said:

Maybe should add I am a girly, so shorter top tube etc is a necessity.

Not if you don't have a diamond frame, of course! The Streetmachine adjusts by moving the boom
where the crank mounts in and out, so you just shorten the bike to your own size. HPVel list rider
sizes as from
ca. 1.64m to ca. 2m.

It's not cheap, but OTOH not really much (if any) more than a "proper" conventional tourer with the
same level of equipment. The manufacturer has thought through a tourer's needs quite well and offer
a good range of standard options including racks, Rohloff speedhub rather than the usual 27 speed
Deore derailleurs, Schmidt SON/B&M dynohub lighting, a range of seat sizes, fairings, etc. etc. My
uses are mainly day rides and heavy shopping with the odd longer tour, and I've yet to see any bike
I wish I'd bought instead (aside from the same thing with a Rohloff and maybe hydraulic discs,
another factory option though the standard V brakes work very well).

HPVel's Speedmachine is lower, lighter and faster (better aero as well as lighter) but will only
take two panniers rather than 4, and they can't fit under the rider for optimum weight distribution.
But if you're happy with two panniers it may be the better option for Audax. You can find more on it
with a few clicks at all 3 websites I've given you.

HP Velotechnik aren't the only game in town, of course. Futurecycles will happily let you play on
Optimas, etc., and Bikefix and Kinetics have other flavours too, though note that you need to look
for touring recumbents specifically: quite a few 'bent models would be hopeless for the job.

You will, of course, have to become an Evil Agent of the Dark Side if you get one, but at least
you'll be depraved in an extraordinarily comfortable chair with full suspension and a heads-up view
of where you're actually going...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

In message <[email hidden]>, Arthur Clune <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Have a look at German or Dutch brands. Pretty much all German or Dutch tourers use bikes exactly
like you describe.

Yes, and it's evident that most Germans (the ones I've seen on these bikes, anyway) don't go very
far on them.

If a cheapo hybrid isn't good enough then what's wrong with an expensive one?
--
Michael MacClancy

On 3 Apr 2003 23:00:17 +0950, kat scrawled: ) audax's

Some mistake, surely; toujours 'audaces'.

J-P
--
If you try to imagine something like a gay version of Cheers where they serve consecrated tawny Port
rather than beer, you'll be almost there, except that St. ****'s is not so churchy.

I was shy to evangelise for the dark-side, but I'll second what Pete's just written. I'm very happy
riding a recumbent - I use mine for everything from shopping in town, to rides of 150 miles at a
stretch (solo; I haven't tried Audax yet though I think to doing long distances with company). I
find it supremely comfortable, no slower than my old tourer, and I haven't found traffic to be a
problem, though I would say you have to be more assertive riding a 'bent.

There are some disadvantages like price, they're more difficult to transport or carry up spiral
staircases, and money and mobile phones fall out of your pockets (this is _not_ why people smile so
much when you ride past).

It may sound a little radical, but I would consider them seriously: my requirements of a bike were
very similar to yours.

Kit

Peter Clinch said:

kat said:

hi - I have been doing all my cycling on a cheapo hybrid, which has so far been pretty good for
commuting, touring, day rides etc, but I think it's time to upgrade to a proper tourer.

The thing is I DON'T want to get the bog-standard variety with drops - prefer a more upright
riding position and V-brakes, with butterfly bars or similar.

Or if you don't want to go down the Galaxy-a-like path you could get a bit more radical and get a
recumbent tourer, which is what I've done and no regrets at all. For more info on what I have
(Streetmachine GT) see kinetics.org.ukstreetmachine.htmlOpen ↗ or
bikefix.co.uksm.htmlOpen ↗ for web pages from the main UK dealers, either of whom will let
you try a demo machine, or the manufacturer's site is
hpvelotechnik.comindex e.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I expect to be doing some fully loaded touring on it, so it
needs to be good quality (though not expedition standard exactly), but also day rides and
audax's, so not too heavy and tank-like.

The SMGT *is* built like a tank, but OTOH it's incredibly comfortable and with its superior
aerodynamics to a flat bar upright you're not catching quite so much drag, so it's swings and
roundabouts on effort of riding. And it carries luggage better than any other bike I've ever used,
with the ability to put heavy stuff under the rider right between the two wheels where handling is
hardly affected at all. When I say "comfortable" I mean a whole different league to even the most
comfortable saddle on an upright. And no weight on your arms and wrists, which means the only
fatigue you ever get is in your legs. You really have to experience it to believe how much
difference it can make, especially over long rides.

Quoted message said:

Maybe should add I am a girly, so shorter top tube etc is a necessity.

Not if you don't have a diamond frame, of course! The Streetmachine adjusts by moving the boom
where the crank mounts in and out, so you just shorten the bike to your own size. HPVel list rider
sizes as from
ca. 1.64m to ca. 2m.

It's not cheap, but OTOH not really much (if any) more than a "proper" conventional tourer with
the same level of equipment. The manufacturer has thought through a tourer's needs quite well and
offer a good range of standard options including racks, Rohloff speedhub rather than the usual 27
speed Deore derailleurs, Schmidt SON/B&M dynohub lighting, a range of seat sizes, fairings, etc.
etc. My uses are mainly day rides and heavy shopping with the odd longer tour, and I've yet to see
any bike I wish I'd bought instead (aside from the same thing with a Rohloff and maybe hydraulic
discs, another factory option though the standard V brakes work very well).

HPVel's Speedmachine is lower, lighter and faster (better aero as well as lighter) but will only
take two panniers rather than 4, and they can't fit under the rider for optimum weight
distribution. But if you're happy with two panniers it may be the better option for Audax. You can
find more on it with a few clicks at all 3 websites I've given you.

HP Velotechnik aren't the only game in town, of course. Futurecycles will happily let you play on
Optimas, etc., and Bikefix and Kinetics have other flavours too, though note that you need to look
for touring recumbents specifically: quite a few 'bent models would be hopeless for the job.

You will, of course, have to become an Evil Agent of the Dark Side if you get one, but at least
you'll be depraved in an extraordinarily comfortable chair with full suspension and a heads-up
view of where you're actually going...

Pete.

Kit Wolf said:

I was shy to evangelise for the dark-side, but I'll second what Pete's just written. I'm very
happy riding a recumbent - I use mine for everything....

I won't quite agree because three wheels are even better and your recumbent grin will be twice
as wide ;-)

John B

Kit Wolf said:

There are some disadvantages like price, they're more difficult to transport or carry up spiral
staircases, and money and mobile phones fa=

ll

Quoted message said:

out of your pockets (this is _not_ why people smile so much when you ri=

de

Quoted message said:

past).

Price is certainly a barrier for a basic bike (a goodish hybrid is=20 available at =A3200, entry
level 'bents start at about 3 times that), but=
=20
when you're in the world of serious tourers the gap really isn't so big. =

In fact a custom built upright can easily come in at far more than a=20 Streetmachine.

I'd agree about the stairs: if I still stayed in a tenement above ground =

floor I wouldn't own the Streetmachine as it's far too unwieldy to carry =

any sort of distance.

Haven't had the pocket problems, but then I use trousers with zip=20 pockets or have stuff travel
in the panniers. For a long distance ride=20 you'd be a bit daft to put a moby in a trouser
pocket, I think!

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics,
Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Kit Wolf said:

There are some disadvantages like price, they're more difficult to transport or carry up spiral
staircases, and money and mobile phones fall out of your pockets (this is _not_ why people smile
so much when you ride past).

Price is certainly a barrier for a basic bike (a goodish hybrid is available at £200, entry level
'bents start at about 3 times that), but when you're in the world of serious tourers the gap
really isn't so big. In fact a custom built upright can easily come in at far more than a
Streetmachine.

I'd agree about the stairs: if I still stayed in a tenement above ground floor I wouldn't own the
Streetmachine as it's far too unwieldy to carry any sort of distance.

Haven't had the pocket problems, but then I use trousers with zip pockets or have stuff travel
in the panniers. For a long distance ride you'd be a bit daft to put a moby in a trouser pocket,
I think!

Ta!

I had no problems doing so for about 1/2 a year, then I bought a new pair of walking trousers that
were made of a slipperier material and had shallower pockets. Luckily I was on the way to the
Orange shop to get a "free" upgrade to a 5210 that straps round my wrist and has a bouncable case.
Very nerdy.

Quoted message said:

Pete.

Kit Wolf said:

There are some disadvantages like price,

Actually, even this isn't as clear cut as it may seem at first. Certainly the sticker price of a new
bent will usually be higher than an equivalently equipped upright. But on the plus side they hold
their value much better. I'm just getting back into uprights and am amazed at how quickly they loose
value. An immaculate bike only ridden for 50-100 miles can struggle to fetch half the original
price, less if the manufacturer has introduced some minor (and often irrelevant) tweak to the spec
in the mean time. On the other hand I bought my StreetMachine for £1250 and two years and around
3000 miles later I sold it for £850 with no trouble.

So, if you are the sort of person who changes bikes on a regular basis a bent may actually work
out cheaper!

Cheers,

Andy

thanks for all the ideas. The idea of a getting a recumbent is interesting, but I think I have to rule it out on terms of impracticality (wouldn't be able to get it down the stairs and round the corners into my flat), and I think it would be too scarey in London traffic.

Does anyone have any views on the Thorn Club Tour - good value? versus a Roberts tourer of some kind?

I was looking for something similar myself a couple of months ago and after lots of agonising I finally opted for a Ribble 7005 Audax/Winter. Their website address is http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/frames.php
You choose a frame that you want and then you choose the parts that you want to add to the bike. It's nice and racy but can also handle touring. Good luck.

kat said:

thanks for all the ideas. The idea of a getting a recumbent is interesting, but I think I have to
rule it out on terms of impracticality (wouldn't be able to get it down the stairs and round the
corners into my flat), and I think it would be too scarey in London traffic.

Could well be right about negotiating the stairs, though go and have words with Bikefix: they're in
Bloomsbury, so clearly aren't averse to riding 'bents around the Smoke. Note that the Streetmachine
seat is about the same height as a typical car seat, so you're quite visible, making eye contact
with drivers is actually easier and I find in practice I actually get given rather more room than on
an upright. Since I think Bikefix will let you borrow a demo machine you can try it out on your
stairs to check if it is or isn't a goer there.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

kat said:

Does anyone have any views on the Thorn Club Tour - good value? versus a Roberts tourer of
some kind?

I can only go on my recent experience of buying a bike from SJS - very disappointing - poorish
service from some of the staff & several problems with the bike they delivered. When I complained,
Robin Thorn called me up & we had a one-sided conversation where he basically churned out a load of
BS & told me how wonderful his company & products were.

I'm still looking and am going to check out Roberts, Condor and Paul Hewitt.

kat said:

Does anyone have any views on the Thorn Club Tour - good value? versus a Roberts tourer of
some kind?

Is it possible to go wrong with a Chas Roberts tourer? I'm of the impression that the Thorns are
good production bikes, but Chas Roberts is one of a very small handful of custom builders with a
world-wide reputation.

kat said:

The thing is I DON'T want to get the bog-standard variety with drops - prefer a more upright
riding position and V-brakes, with butterfly bars or similar. I expect to be doing some fully
loaded touring on it, so it needs to be good quality (though not expedition standard exactly), but
also day rides and audax's, so not too heavy and tank-like.

Moulton APB? Think about it.

In message kat said:

Does anyone have any views on the Thorn Club Tour - good value? versus a Roberts tourer of
some kind?

Got a Thorn Club Tour last summer - very happy with it so far.

--
CTC Right to Ride Representative for Richmond upon Thames