Alcatraz Sharkfest

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So how do you interpret those statistics? I don't know. If you

consider only the top 10 finishers, then a disproportionate number (90%) wore wetsuits. But if you
consider all 38 who finished under 30 minutes, or all 168 who finished under 35 minutes, a slightly
disproportionate number (24% and 21%, respectively) did not wear wetsuits.<<

There is going to be a HUGE selection bias. I'd wager that the people not wearing wetsuits are,
disproportionately, going to be the best swimmers.

- Larry

In Larry Weisenthal said:

There is going to be a HUGE selection bias. I'd wager that the people not wearing wetsuits are,
disproportionately, going to be the best swimmers.

Probably true. Certainly Rose would have been far and away the best swimmer present.

Maybe we could ask everyone to swim the event twice, once without wetsuits and once with? Then
we could look for a correlation between their times without wetsuits and their improvement
with wetsuits.

Ross

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So how do you interpret those statistics? I don't know. If you

consider only the top 10 finishers, then a disproportionate number (90%) wore wetsuits. But if you
consider all 38 who finished under 30 minutes, or all 168 who finished under 35 minutes, a
slightly disproportionate number (24% and 21%, respectively) did not wear wetsuits.<<

There is going to be a HUGE selection bias. I'd wager that the people not wearing wetsuits are,
disproportionately, going to be the best swimmers.

- Larry

I think you're right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe we could ask everyone to swim the event twice, once without

wetsuits and once with? Then we could look for a correlation between their times without wetsuits
and their improvement with wetsuits.<<

Since you were kind enough to report on your results with "Larry's Kicking Challenge," the least I
can do is to reciprocate with "Ross's Wetsuit Challenge."

Hope that we can collect some useful data, analogous to the very interesting and useful data which
was reported in the "Kicking Challenge."

- Larry

"Ross Bogue" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One small point for the wetsuit/non-wetsuit discussion:

Last weekend Erica Rose won the Alcatraz Sharkfest open-water swim wearing a Speedo. That's not
surprising. She could probably have won wearing a barrel - she's that good.

The next 14 finishers were males wearing wetsuits. 29 of the 38 finishers under 30 minutes wore
wetsuits. 132 of the 168 finishers under 35 minutes wore wetsuits. Overall, about 5/6 of the 800
swimmers wore wetsuits.

So how do you interpret those statistics? I don't know. If you consider only the top 10 finishers,
then a disproportionate number (90%) wore wetsuits. But if you consider all 38 who finished under
30 minutes, or all 168 who finished under 35 minutes, a slightly disproportionate number (24% and
21%, respectively) did not wear wetsuits.

The race organizers clearly felt that there would be a difference, as they sorted the results into
wetsuit and non-wetsuit divisions.

Having done the Alcatraz Sharfest Swim for a couple of years I would say that this swim probably
attracts a disproportionate amount of triathletes who own wetsuits and, therefore, gain useful
experience from swimming such a race in a wetsuit. A better race to compare is the same swim
from Alcatraz organized by the Southend Rowing club. This swim club has a number of seasoned
older school swimmers who have not only swam from Alcatraz 20,30,40 some over a 100 times, but
also would never be caught dead in a wetsuit no matter how much more comfortable or faster it
would make them. However, quite a few of them will use a wetsuit if competing in a triathlon
where all of their competitors are using them, since there is not a "no wetsuit" division.
Having said that, I don't think you would be able to draw any conclusions as far as wetsuits
versus non-wetsuit for a swim only event. There are a numerous lot of wetsuited swimmers who are
entering into swimming because wetsuits are what made a cold water swim, like Alcatraz,
tolerable in the first place. Plenty of good swimmers who would wear a wetsuit for triathlons
will decide not to, for swim only, in order to compete with other fast swimmers who basically
want to see what they can do without the neoprene.

Rick Swanger

Well, I've done the SERC Alcatraz swim both with and without a wetsuit. I was faster with the
wetsuit by 1-2 minutes (no wetsuit, ~35 minutes; with wetsuit 33 and 34 minutes). Having said that,
however, I don't think it's a highly valid comparison. First, every Alcatraz swim I have done has
been different. The boat doesn't drop you off in exactly the same place, the
tide/current/waves/conditions are never quite the same, etc. I'm also someone who has a weak kick
and get an improved body position from the extra buoyancy.

Larry Weisenthal said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe we could ask everyone to swim the event twice, once without

wetsuits and once with? Then we could look for a correlation between their times without wetsuits
and their improvement with wetsuits.<<

Since you were kind enough to report on your results with "Larry's Kicking Challenge," the least I
can do is to reciprocate with "Ross's Wetsuit Challenge."

Hope that we can collect some useful data, analogous to the very interesting and useful data which
was reported in the "Kicking Challenge."

- Larry

Ross Bogue said:

So how do you interpret those statistics?

The water was cold.

martin

Ross Bogue said:

So how do you interpret those statistics? I don't know. If you consider only the top 10 finishers,
then a disproportionate number (90%) wore wetsuits. But if you consider all 38 who finished under
30 minutes, or all 168 who finished under 35 minutes, a slightly disproportionate number (24% and
21%, respectively) did not wear wetsuits.

You've merely proved that the fast swimmers that do Alcatraz without a wetsuit are locals from SERC
and Dolphin who practice in those conditions every day. With the currents, chop, and the narrow
entrance to the Aquatic Park, swimming ability is only a small piece of the equation. Familiarity is
worth a lot.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

Larry Weisenthal said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I've done the SERC Alcatraz swim both with and without a

wetsuit. I was faster with the wetsuit by 1-2 minutes (no wetsuit, ~35 minutes; with wetsuit 33
and 34 minutes). Having said that, however, I don't think it's a highly valid comparison. <<

I was thinking about pool swimming, with and without a wetsuit. I'll try and do this, when I have
the chance.

The problem with that is overheating. You cannot swim in a full wetsuit in normal pool temps w/o
overheating. My personal experience is that anything over 72F is too warm for a full; after that, I
start sweating and feeling the effects of overheating. Even 70-72 can be too warm if the sun is out.
You might get a reasonable comparison using a shortie in a pool, but that obviously will not show
the full effect.

I'll try it next time I get a chance, though.

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe we could ask everyone to swim the event twice, once without

wetsuits and once with? Then we could look for a correlation between their times without wetsuits
and their improvement with wetsuits.<<

Since you were kind enough to report on your results with "Larry's Kicking Challenge," the least I
can do is to reciprocate with "Ross's Wetsuit Challenge."

Hope that we can collect some useful data, analogous to the very

interesting

Quoted message said:

and useful data which was reported in the "Kicking Challenge."

- Larry

Oh, that reminds me, we did a lot of kicking yesterday, so I had a chance to time my kick. It's
exactly half the speed of my pull. That same kick, in a backstroke position is some 30% faster.

"M.W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Ross Bogue said:

So how do you interpret those statistics?

The water was cold.

martin

Love the common sense here 🙂

gwydion said:

Well, I've done the SERC Alcatraz swim both with and without a wetsuit. I was faster with the
wetsuit by 1-2 minutes (no wetsuit, ~35 minutes; with wetsuit 33 and 34 minutes). Having said that,
however, I don't think it's a highly valid comparison. First, every Alcatraz swim I have done has
been different. The boat doesn't drop you off in exactly the same place, the
tide/current/waves/conditions are never quite the

I have three different times on the Alcatraz -> Cristy Field course and yeah, there's no way you can
do comparisons. 2001- 52 minutes. 2002- 42 minutes. 2003- 64 minutes (definitely longer course).

Wave conditions vary, tides vary, start points vary, and temps vary.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

In Larry Weisenthal said:

Since you were kind enough to report on your results with "Larry's Kicking Challenge," the least I
can do is to reciprocate with "Ross's Wetsuit Challenge."

:-)

Not sure I can claim full title to that challenge, as I didn't start the wetsuit discussion. I also
can't contribute, as I don't own a wetsuit. But I'd be happy to listen to other people's
experiences.

And I think Gwydion, etc, are right: you'd want to time the two swims in a lake or pool to ensure
conditions are consistent.

Ross