Alloy nipples.

leestevens said:

I've just had a wheel built recently and am getting quite fed up with
it. Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the

rim

Quoted message said:

snakes. The rim is a mavic CX18 with DT Swiss spokes and alloy

nipples,

Quoted message said:

28 spokes built two cross. The bloke who built the wheel for me says

he

Quoted message said:

doesn't want to tighten the spokes to much and strip the threads in

the

Quoted message said:

nipples, which i can understand. I have two remedies for this problem
but would appreciate a second or third opinion on the matter. First
suggestion, bugger the weight advantage and go with brass nipples and
tell him to tighten them up as much as needed. Second suggestion, use
Loc-tite or similar on the threads and stop them from undoing.

--
leestevens

***********************************

You should be able to tighten alloy nipples sufficiently, so maybe the
bloke was not using a 'proper' spoke wrench (the type that holds 3
corners)

The weight penalty of using brass nipples is very unlikely to be
anything that you would notice.

Lewis.

*****************************

leestevens-<< I've just had a wheel built recently and am getting quite fed up
with
it. Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the rim
snakes. The rim is a mavic CX18 with DT Swiss spokes and alloy nipples,
28 spokes built two cross. >><BR><BR>

I answer-the spokes are coming loose because the tension was too low. Now that
you have ridden this wheel, the rim may be deformed as well(bent).

I would say have a better wheelbuilder rebuild with brass nipps and see.
OBTW-weigh 28 alloy nipps and 28 brass nipps...see the difference? Less than a
Power bar.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

leestevens said:

I've just had a wheel built recently and am getting quite fed up with
it. Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the rim
snakes. The rim is a mavic CX18 with DT Swiss spokes and alloy nipples,
28 spokes built two cross. The bloke who built the wheel for me says he
doesn't want to tighten the spokes to much and strip the threads in the
nipples, which i can understand. I have two remedies for this problem
but would appreciate a second or third opinion on the matter. First
suggestion, bugger the weight advantage and go with brass nipples and
tell him to tighten them up as much as needed. Second suggestion, use
Loc-tite or similar on the threads and stop them from undoing.

have your "bloke" use the proper [3 sided] tool. stipping threads
within rim manufacturer specified spoke tension is impossible. more
likely, they're using just a 2 sided tool and are worried about rounding
the nipple flats.

i suspect that they're not a very good builder. ask them if they used a
spoke tensiometer. if not, just take your wheel back, walk out & find
someone else that knows what they're doing.

loctite is going to be ineffective if the existing spokes/nipps were
previously lubed on assembly. given the above, that could well not be
the case. again, qualify this person's competency before using loctite.
locking in a bad build is /not/ a place you want to go. ask around
and look for people riding wheels that remain true after extended use.
/that's/ the person you want. worth payng more for too.

there's nothing intrinsically wrong with alloy nipps when correctly
used. find someone that knows what they're doing - your problems will
disappear.

In article <[email hidden]>,

leestevens said:

Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the rim
snakes.

Quoted message said:

The bloke who built the wheel for me says he
doesn't want to tighten the spokes to much and strip the threads in the
nipples, which i can understand.

The bloke who built the wheel is incompetant. Alloy nipples won't strip
unless they corrode and seize up even on the highly tensioned rear wheel
drive side. If you try to kludge arround the insufficiently tensioned wheel
with Loctite or lindseed oil you'll probably have spoke breakage due to fatigue.

With reasonably strong rims properly tensioned wheels don't need any
sort of sticky goo to keep the nipples from unscrewing. A drop of oil for
each nipple+socket is ideal.

You might want to read _The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt and build
your own wheels. They'll stay true until you crash them and when that
happens you can have a replacement built by the next day. The only
drawback is that it will take you much longer than a competant professional;
although I find it somewhat relaxing and cathartic to build wheels with
a big mug of stout.

--
<a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/">Home Page</a>
9/11 was a premptive attack

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've just had a wheel built recently and am getting quite fed up with
it. Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the rim
snakes. The rim is a mavic CX18 with DT Swiss spokes and alloy nipples,
28 spokes built two cross. The bloke who built the wheel for me says he
doesn't want to tighten the spokes to much and strip the threads in the
nipples, which i can understand. I have two remedies for this problem
but would appreciate a second or third opinion on the matter. First
suggestion, bugger the weight advantage and go with brass nipples and
tell him to tighten them up as much as needed. Second suggestion, use
Loc-tite or similar on the threads and stop them from undoing.

You need to find a wheel builder who knows what they are doing. If the
spokes are sized properly, you can tighten the alloy nipples as tight as
the rim will allow. This assumes you are using decent quality nipples.
Switching to brass nipples would be the better option. Loctite is a crutch
for poor wheel builders. It also means that you are compromising the strength
of your wheel by leaving the tension lower thant it needs to be.
--------------
Alex

jim beam said:

have your "bloke" use the proper [3 sided] tool. stipping threads
within rim manufacturer specified spoke tension is impossible. more
likely, they're using just a 2 sided tool and are worried about
rounding the nipple flats.

....

Quoted message said:

there's nothing intrinsically wrong with alloy nipps when correctly
used. find someone that knows what they're doing - your problems
will disappear.

I disagree. The problem I've always had with aluminum nipples wasn't
rounding the flats, it was the threads.

When I'm tightening a really tight spoke the threads will simply pull
out. The nipple threads that remain on the spoke look like tiny
springs after I remove them. I've always used Edco aluminum nipples
because by reputation they are the best.

It is true that on a lot of wheels you can get aluminum nipples tight
enough to work. A few times I used aluminum nipples and just replaced
the ones that stripped while building or trueing then it ocurred to me
that the darned things were just more bother than they are worth. The
tradeoff for saving a few grams just isn't worth it.
--
Bruce Jackson

leestevens said:

I've just had a wheel built recently and am getting quite fed up with
it. Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the rim
snakes. The rim is a mavic CX18 with DT Swiss spokes and alloy nipples,
28 spokes built two cross. The bloke who built the wheel for me says he
doesn't want to tighten the spokes to much and strip the threads in the
nipples, which i can understand. I have two remedies for this problem
but would appreciate a second or third opinion on the matter. First
suggestion, bugger the weight advantage and go with brass nipples and
tell him to tighten them up as much as needed. Second suggestion, use
Loc-tite or similar on the threads and stop them from undoing.

An emphatic "NO!" to the Loctite from me.

A definite "yes" on the brass nipps, and stress-relieve the spokes as
well; chances are good that this step has also been missed. If the
wheel builder does not understand the meaning of stress-relieving,
find a different one.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"leestevens" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just had a wheel built recently and am getting quite fed up with
it. Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the rim
snakes. The rim is a mavic CX18 with DT Swiss spokes and alloy nipples,
28 spokes built two cross. The bloke who built the wheel for me says he
doesn't want to tighten the spokes to much and strip the threads in the
nipples, which i can understand. I have two remedies for this problem
but would appreciate a second or third opinion on the matter. First
suggestion, bugger the weight advantage and go with brass nipples and
tell him to tighten them up as much as needed. Second suggestion, use
Loc-tite or similar on the threads and stop them from undoing.

I weigh 235 and have one set of wheels with Al nipples (close out
mega-deal, couldn't resist). I had no trouble getting the tension high
enough for them not to unscrew, I didn't strip or round any. I've also had
a wheel built with Loc-tite, that wasn't a tragedy either, although a
couple of years later when I swapped the rim it took me twice as long to
unscrew everything.

I'd recommend staying away from both Al nipples and Loc-tite if possible,
but since you've got the Al already, I wouldn't bother swapping. I would
insist on the builder getting the spokes tight and stress-relieved.
Personally, I've found the easiest way to get this done right is to do it
myself, mostly because I can bring the tension up, go for a ride, check for
spokes unscrewing (by tone), if I get any, bring up the tension a little
more, lather, rinse, repeat. Beats going back to the shop over & over (been
there, done that).

Bruce Jackson said:

jim beam said:

have your "bloke" use the proper [3 sided] tool. stipping threads
within rim manufacturer specified spoke tension is impossible. more
likely, they're using just a 2 sided tool and are worried about
rounding the nipple flats.

...

Quoted message said:

there's nothing intrinsically wrong with alloy nipps when correctly
used. find someone that knows what they're doing - your problems
will disappear.

I disagree. The problem I've always had with aluminum nipples wasn't
rounding the flats, it was the threads.

When I'm tightening a really tight spoke the threads will simply pull
out.

i'll repeat: "stipping threads within rim manufacturer specified spoke
tension is impossible."

if you're stripping threads, you're exceeding manufacturer spec.

Quoted message said:

The nipple threads that remain on the spoke look like tiny
springs after I remove them. I've always used Edco aluminum nipples
because by reputation they are the best.

It is true that on a lot of wheels you can get aluminum nipples tight
enough to work. A few times I used aluminum nipples and just replaced
the ones that stripped while building or trueing then it ocurred to me
that the darned things were just more bother than they are worth. The
tradeoff for saving a few grams just isn't worth it.
--
Bruce Jackson

Alex Rodriguez said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've just had a wheel built recently and am getting quite fed up with
it. Every time i take it for a ride the nipples loosen off and the rim
snakes. The rim is a mavic CX18 with DT Swiss spokes and alloy nipples,
28 spokes built two cross. The bloke who built the wheel for me says he
doesn't want to tighten the spokes to much and strip the threads in the
nipples, which i can understand. I have two remedies for this problem
but would appreciate a second or third opinion on the matter. First
suggestion, bugger the weight advantage and go with brass nipples and
tell him to tighten them up as much as needed. Second suggestion, use
Loc-tite or similar on the threads and stop them from undoing.

You need to find a wheel builder who knows what they are doing. If the
spokes are sized properly, you can tighten the alloy nipples as tight as
the rim will allow.

this ambiguous advice frequently leads to excess tension. the result is
increased propensity for the rim to taco and to crack. _only_ build to
the spoke tension specified by the rim manufacturer.

Quoted message said:

This assumes you are using decent quality nipples.
Switching to brass nipples would be the better option. Loctite is a crutch
for poor wheel builders. It also means that you are compromising the strength
of your wheel by leaving the tension lower thant it needs to be.
--------------
Alex

Aluminum nipples should only be used with butted spokes.

Weisse Luft said:

Aluminum nipples should only be used with butted spokes.

Dear Weisse,

I'm intrigued--why?

Hoping for fascinating technology,

Carl Fogel

Lower stress variation and lower maximum stress. Using aluminum nipples with straight gauge spokes is also pointless based on weight.

Weisse Luft said:

Lower stress variation and lower maximum stress. Using aluminum nipples
with straight gauge spokes is also pointless.

Dear Weisse,

Possibly there's a typo in this thread, so I'm just asking
for clarification.

Are you saying that butted spokes inherently exert lower
maximum stress than straight gauge spokes on nipples?

Or that you would build butted spokes to a lower maximum
stress than straight gauge spokes in the same wheel?

Or what? When I read both your posts, I'm confused.

Carl Fogel

Weisse Luft said:

Aluminum nipples should only be used with butted spokes.

Why?
I dislike them as I can't get proper tension before nipple
failure. But why butted?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Weisse Luft said:

Lower stress variation and lower maximum stress. Using aluminum nipples
with straight gauge spokes is also pointless.

Using them with butted spokes is equally pointless, IMHO

"Lower stress variation" What does that mean in English? In
a tight wheel (assuming the rim isn't damaged) the stresses
aren't all that varied.

"Lower maximum stress" You mean less tension? If your
spokes are not properly tensioned, it's max stressful, what
the brake rubbing and those broken spokes and all.

Really, why butted spokes with aluminum nipples?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

quote='A Muzi'Weisse Luft said:

Lower stress variation and lower maximum stress. Using aluminum nipples
with straight gauge spokes is also pointless.

Using them with butted spokes is equally pointless, IMHO

"Lower stress variation" What does that mean in English? In
a tight wheel (assuming the rim isn't damaged) the stresses
aren't all that varied.

"Lower maximum stress" You mean less tension? If your
spokes are not properly tensioned, it's max stressful, what
the brake rubbing and those broken spokes and all.

Really, why butted spokes with aluminum nipples?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971[/QUOTE]

Butted spokes are more elastic.

Andy writes-<< Using them with butted spokes is equally pointless, IMHO

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner. They are great for shooting across the shop
out of a straw on slow winter days...but that's about all.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Which rim manufacturers rate their rims for maximum spoke tension?
I've seen some informal recommendations from marketing blow hards but
no rim I ever bought came with a spec sheet indicating optimum spoke
tension.

Best spoke tension is determined experimentally. If aluminum nipples
become the limiting factor on how tight the spokes can be than the
wheel will be weaker than if it was built to the point where the rim is
the limiting factor.

I have managed to get wheels with alloy nipples tight enough to work
but the same wheels would be better if I were able to tension them
higher with brass nipples.
--
Bruce Jackson