almost frozen nipples on old wheel - typical solution

[Woogoogle]

I have an older wheel that when I turn a nipple, I must turn it a lot
before the spoke frees itself and moves.

From what I could find using google search most people recommend
replacing the spokes and nipples. Why does one have to replace the
spokes?

 

[[email protected]]

On 10 Oct 2004 19:02:16 -0700, [email protected]
(Woogoogle) wrote:

>I have an older wheel that when I turn a nipple, I must turn it a lot
>before the spoke frees itself and moves.
>
>From what I could find using google search most people recommend
>replacing the spokes and nipples. Why does one have to replace the
>spokes?

Dear Suitor-to-Searcher,

At a guess, the problem is corrosion.

If both the nipple and spoke are corroded, then both of them
need replacement. Any corroded spot would be where things
would crack and fail.

Carl Fogel

 

[A Muzi]

Woogoogle wrote:

> I have an older wheel that when I turn a nipple, I must turn it a lot
> before the spoke frees itself and moves.
>
> From what I could find using google search most people recommend
> replacing the spokes and nipples. Why does one have to replace the
> spokes?

Oh, but it does move though? Drop the tension, oil the
nipples and then bring it back up to tight/round/true and
all will be well. If you have to cut out one or two spokes
I'd still consider that reasonable.

Oil the threads and let oil spill over the side to lube the
nipple against the rim, too. Wipe up the excess before
smearing the oil with your brake shoes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

steve-<< I have an older wheel that when I turn a nipple, I must turn it a lot
before the spoke frees itself and moves.

From what I could find using google search most people recommend
replacing the spokes and nipples. Why does one have to replace the
spokes?
>><BR><BR>


Before you do that look into a thing called a 'twist assist', a modified 4th
hand that is used to hold spokes while you turn nipps. You don't have the
replace the spokes, if you can actually turn the nipples. Lube the nipps and
rebuild.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[David Green]

A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:

> Oil the threads and let oil spill over the side to lube the
> nipple against the rim, too. Wipe up the excess before
> smearing the oil with your brake shoes.

Another good reason to remove any excess oil is that it will cause
punctures in your inner tubes. After carefully de-tensioning, lubing
and re-tensioning a wheel recently, surplus oil I had left around the
rim caused the inner tube to fail within a matter of hours of
refitting the tyre.

I had been rather liberal with the oil can (standard motor oil) around
the sockets in the rim. Gravity and a few hours time were all it took.

David Green
Cambridge UK

 

[David Green]

A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:

> Oil the threads and let oil spill over the side to lube the
> nipple against the rim, too. Wipe up the excess before
> smearing the oil with your brake shoes.

Another good reason to remove any excess oil is that it will cause
punctures in your inner tubes. After carefully de-tensioning, lubing
and re-tensioning a wheel recently, surplus oil I had left around the
rim caused the inner tube to fail within a matter of hours of
refitting the tyre.

I had been rather liberal with the oil can (standard motor oil) around
the sockets in the rim. Gravity and a few hours time were all it took.

David Green
Cambridge UK

 

[Weisse Luft]

The reason its recommended to replace the spokes is cleaning the threads on each spoke is time consuming. Cheaper to replace.

For the DIY'er, its not usually an issue.

 

[[email protected]]

On 11 Oct 2004 07:11:26 -0700, [email protected] (David
Green) wrote:

>A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:
>
>> Oil the threads and let oil spill over the side to lube the
>> nipple against the rim, too. Wipe up the excess before
>> smearing the oil with your brake shoes.
>
>Another good reason to remove any excess oil is that it will cause
>punctures in your inner tubes. After carefully de-tensioning, lubing
>and re-tensioning a wheel recently, surplus oil I had left around the
>rim caused the inner tube to fail within a matter of hours of
>refitting the tyre.
>
>I had been rather liberal with the oil can (standard motor oil) around
>the sockets in the rim. Gravity and a few hours time were all it took.
>
>David Green
>Cambridge UK

Dear David,

Was your tube thin or latex?

Or does a thin layer of ordinary motor oil dissolve butyl
rubber within a few hours?

Time to experiment!

Carl Fogel

 

[Doug]

>steve-<< I have an older wheel that when I turn a nipple, I must turn it a lot
>before the spoke frees itself and moves.
>
>You don't have the
>replace the spokes, if you can actually turn the nipples. Lube the nipps and
>rebuild.

Or if you have aluminum nips and live near the beach, they'll
disintegrate off like mine have.

Doug

 

[Woogoogle]

Thanks to all for their ideas and suggestions. I was fooling around
with a nipple and it broke - I examined it and realized it was
aluminum. After much squeaking and complaining from the spokes I just
removed all of them and replaced them ( lots of fine aluminum? powder
dropped out of each eyelet ) with brass nipples and the retensioning
went without a hitch or frozen spoke or squeak. It's an old wheel but
still spins great and was fairly true and round to begin with.

 

[David Green]

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Dear David,
>
> Was your tube thin or latex?
>
> Or does a thin layer of ordinary motor oil dissolve butyl
> rubber within a few hours?

Carl,

it was standard black synthetic (butyl) rubber.

I fixed the wheel and refitted the tyre one evening. Pumped up to
normal pressure, and refitted wheel in frame.

Next morning, tyre was flat. When I looked, a small area where oil had
seeped onto the inner tube had developed a 'split'. I then stripped
tyre, tube and rim tape off and thoroughly cleaned any oil from the
inside of the rim. Since then, no recurrences.

David.

 

[[email protected]]

David Green writes:

>> Was your tube thin or latex?

>> Or does a thin layer of ordinary motor oil dissolve butyl
>> rubber within a few hours?

> it was standard black synthetic (butyl) rubber.

> I fixed the wheel and refitted the tyre one evening. Pumped up to
> normal pressure, and refitted wheel in frame.

> Next morning, tyre was flat. When I looked, a small area where oil
> had seeped onto the inner tube had developed a 'split'. I then
> stripped tyre, tube and rim tape off and thoroughly cleaned any oil
> from the inside of the rim. Since then, no recurrences.

I think you have cause and effect incorrectly linked... or you have an
unusual black tube. Butyl tubes commonly sold are not affected by oil
and do just fine even with a blotch of oil on them. Besides, into
what space did the tube expand and fail or are you suggesting it got
porous from the oil and did not burst?

Something does not add up here. Maybe you can clarify.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[[email protected]]

On 12 Oct 2004 08:02:33 -0700, [email protected] (David
Green) wrote:

>[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> Dear David,
>>
>> Was your tube thin or latex?
>>
>> Or does a thin layer of ordinary motor oil dissolve butyl
>> rubber within a few hours?
>
>Carl,
>
>it was standard black synthetic (butyl) rubber.
>
>I fixed the wheel and refitted the tyre one evening. Pumped up to
>normal pressure, and refitted wheel in frame.
>
>Next morning, tyre was flat. When I looked, a small area where oil had
>seeped onto the inner tube had developed a 'split'. I then stripped
>tyre, tube and rim tape off and thoroughly cleaned any oil from the
>inside of the rim. Since then, no recurrences.
>
>David.

Dear David,

So far, the section of ordinary butyl inner tube that I set
to soak in 10w-40 motor oil yesterday seems unaffected.

Maybe your tube had a pre-existing problem and the oil on it
was just sheer coincidence?

Or maybe a badly stressed section of tube would be weakened,
but not dissolved by oil?

As far as I know, oil is only a weak solvent at best and not
a threat to inner tubes, which tend to frequent oily
garages.

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:20:39 GMT, Retro Bob
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:00:21 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>Dear David,
>>
>>So far, the section of ordinary butyl inner tube that I set
>>to soak in 10w-40 motor oil yesterday seems unaffected.
>>
>>Maybe your tube had a pre-existing problem and the oil on it
>>was just sheer coincidence?
>>
>>Or maybe a badly stressed section of tube would be weakened,
>>but not dissolved by oil?
>>
>>As far as I know, oil is only a weak solvent at best and not
>>a threat to inner tubes, which tend to frequent oily
>>garages.
>>
>>Carl Fogel
>
>
>How can a thread about "frozen nipples" have gone this far without
>a single joke ?
>

Dear Bob,

"Dignity!" as Gene Kelly's successful actor declares during
flashbacks about his undignified earlier career in "Singin'
in the Rain"--"Always Dignity!"

Carl Fogel

 

[David Green]

[email protected] wrote:

> I think you have cause and effect incorrectly linked... or you have an
> unusual black tube. Butyl tubes commonly sold are not affected by oil
> and do just fine even with a blotch of oil on them. Besides, into
> what space did the tube expand and fail or are you suggesting it got
> porous from the oil and did not burst?
>
> Something does not add up here. Maybe you can clarify.

All I know is that, when I removed the tyre to investigate the
unexpected flat, there appeared to be a linear 'split' in the inner tube
parallel to the edge of the rim tape, and there was oil present at this
point. My conclusion was that oil had somehow attacked the rubber.

Certainly since thorough cleaning the rim of all oil, the tyre has not
suffered a repeat of the same problem.

(If this were a latex tube, would it have been susceptible to oil damage
at all?)

--
David Green
Cambridge, UK.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DON'T MAIL THE REPLY ADDRESS! Before you click 'Send',
replace 'deadspam.com' with 'onetel.com'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I would offer the following theories for consideration:
NOTE: none of these involve chemical disintegration of butyl rubber.

1) Oil could have made the rim strip less likely to adhere properly to the
rim bed, thereby offering little resistance over time. Pressure from the
tube wall could have pushed it out of place thereby exposing the rim to a
jagged spoke end or sharp edge of a spoke hole. Or tearing the tube if the
tube were stuck to the rim strip as it moved.

2) If the tube was stuck to the tire through long use and the tube were
deflated and then re-inflated the area at the drop of oil could have moved
further against the rim as the tube wall stretched to fill the rim bed.
(this one is a little far fetched)

3) The way the split is lengthwise along the edge of the rim makes me think
that the tube was perhaps slightly pinched between the tyre and hook bead,
the oil allowed the ends of this pinch to slip back into place but this
placed more strain on the center of the pinch until the tube wall failed.

Dave Reckoning


"David Green" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I think you have cause and effect incorrectly linked... or you have an
>> unusual black tube. Butyl tubes commonly sold are not affected by oil
>> and do just fine even with a blotch of oil on them. Besides, into
>> what space did the tube expand and fail or are you suggesting it got
>> porous from the oil and did not burst?
>>
>> Something does not add up here. Maybe you can clarify.
>
> All I know is that, when I removed the tyre to investigate the unexpected
> flat, there appeared to be a linear 'split' in the inner tube parallel to
> the edge of the rim tape, and there was oil present at this point. My
> conclusion was that oil had somehow attacked the rubber.
>
> Certainly since thorough cleaning the rim of all oil, the tyre has not
> suffered a repeat of the same problem.
>
> (If this were a latex tube, would it have been susceptible to oil damage
> at all?)
>
> --
> David Green
> Cambridge, UK.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> DON'T MAIL THE REPLY ADDRESS! Before you click 'Send',
> replace 'deadspam.com' with 'onetel.com'.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[[email protected]]

David Green writes:

>> I think you have cause and effect incorrectly linked... or you have an
>> unusual black tube. Butyl tubes commonly sold are not affected by oil
>> and do just fine even with a blotch of oil on them. Besides, into
>> what space did the tube expand and fail or are you suggesting it got
>> porous from the oil and did not burst?

>> Something does not add up here. Maybe you can clarify.

> All I know is that, when I removed the tyre to investigate the
> unexpected flat, there appeared to be a linear 'split' in the inner
> tube parallel to the edge of the rim tape, and there was oil present
> at this point. My conclusion was that oil had somehow attacked the
> rubber.

> Certainly since thorough cleaning the rim of all oil, the tyre has
> not suffered a repeat of the same problem.

> (If this were a latex tube, would it have been susceptible to oil
> damage at all?)

You may find the custom silly, but at one time people regularly threw
salt over their shoulders and could subsequently make the same claims
as you have after cleaning the rim, and I assume installing a new or
patched inner tube. There was, no doubt, a leak, but attributing it
to a trace of oil is so much salt thrown over your shoulder.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]

 

[Philip Koop]

David Green wrote:

> All I know is that, when I removed the tyre to investigate the
> unexpected flat, there appeared to be a linear 'split' in the inner tube
> parallel to the edge of the rim tape, and there was oil present at this
> point.

Do you have that hard plastic rim tape? Perhaps, if there was a fold
before inflation, it gave your tube a "paper cut."

> My conclusion was that oil had somehow attacked the rubber.

How would chemical degradation produce a linear split? How would the
tube have the opportunity to expand and tear inside the tire?

--
Philip Koop
Toronto, Canada