Another one R.I.P.

http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15280150%26method=full%26siteid=50060%26page=1%26headline=biker%2ddeath%2dprobe-name_page.html

Biker death probe

Mar 10 2005

By Andrew Hirst, The Huddersfield Daily Examiner

David Burns

POLICE are probing the death of cyclist who fell from his bike after
hitting a tree which may have been deliberately placed across a bridleway.

Local residents and dog-walkers are thought to have taken exception to
off-road cyclists using Coxley Woods, near New Hall Prison, close to
Flockton and a cyclist revealed today there had been a history of
problems in the wood.

David Burns, 38, of Mirfield, died more than two weeks after he hit a
tree laid across the bridleway in the wood.

Police are now investigating if his death can be linked directly to the
fall at 11.30am on Sunday, February 13.

A 34-year-old man who was with Mr Burns when he fell, said a branch and
a tree 15ft apart looked like they had been deliberately laid across the
path.

"Dave managed to jump over the branch, but there was no way he could
avoid the tree because the branches meant it was sticking up," said the
man, who asked not to be named.

"He fell heavily onto his side and was dazed and possibly concussed.

"It took him around 20 minutes to come round which was a long time.

"Normally we are straight back on our bikes and off again."

They eventually continued the ride, but David went to Dewsbury District
Hospital the following day and medical staff told him he had damaged a
joint in his shoulder.

It's very sad when something as small as trail conflicts leads to
people doing things that risk/take others lives. Strangely I have never
heard of Mountain bikers laying traps to catch out hikers but often
hear of hikers attempts to injure cyclists. Barbed wire, fishing line,
trees, large rocks,and anything else they can think up. Very very sad.

I've heard reports of the alt.mountain-bike resident troll doing things
like that but of course I couldn't comment on if they are accurate
reports or if troll boy is enough of a moron to do something so stupid.
Wait, did I just say that..........

===
Mike Vandeman The Extremist
I waste my time harassing mountain bikers and annoying real
environmentalists and scientists. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting something else but got bored)

www.geocities.com/mike_vandeman_the_extremist

Quoted message said:

It's very sad when something as small as trail conflicts leads to
people doing things that risk/take others lives. Strangely I have never
heard of Mountain bikers laying traps to catch out hikers but often
hear of hikers attempts to injure cyclists. Barbed wire, fishing line,
trees, large rocks,and anything else they can think up. Very very sad.

I've heard reports of the alt.mountain-bike resident troll doing things
like that but of course I couldn't comment on if they are accurate
reports or if troll boy is enough of a moron to do something so stupid.
Wait, did I just say that..........

===
Mike Vandeman The Extremist
I waste my time harassing mountain bikers and annoying real
environmentalists and scientists. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting something else but got bored)

As a suscriber and reguler poster to alt.moutain-bike I have to admit I do
think mike is harmless although he acts big in newsgroups and on the
internet he has no fact (I have proven this) I set him a simple task to
gather some scientific knoledge proving some of his points. I admit I set
some conditions to ensure they they were traceable / true / scientifically
investigated. He couldnt do this he has little or no reason to hate bikers
and I personally belive he wouldnt even have time to get outeside to set
traps for mauntain bikers.

It is true that he loves it when we get hurt though. He is definatly enough
of a moron to do things like that but he is apparently 57 years old so I
doubt he would do anything like that + that would add some more feul to the
already blasing pro mouatin biker argument.

oh and get this the thing he spent the last 8 years trying (and failing) to
complete is a nature reserve 100% off limits to humans. This isnt even
possible as all nature parks have staff to maintain the area and ensure no
one breaks the rules.

He is just a complete moron and idiot with a very good point but with little
or no scientific background to base his argument on. I think he fell off a
bike as child and has thus hated us ever since.

Hands up all mountain bikers who love nature ...not trails actual nature?

FeltnA said:

http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15280150%26method=full%26siteid=50060%26page=1%26headline=biker%2ddeath%2dprobe-name_page.html

Biker death probe

Mar 10 2005

By Andrew Hirst, The Huddersfield Daily Examiner

David Burns

POLICE are probing the death of cyclist who fell from his bike after
hitting a tree which may have been deliberately placed across a bridleway.

Local residents and dog-walkers are thought to have taken exception to
off-road cyclists using Coxley Woods, near New Hall Prison, close to
Flockton and a cyclist revealed today there had been a history of
problems in the wood.

David Burns, 38, of Mirfield, died more than two weeks after he hit a
tree laid across the bridleway in the wood.

Police are now investigating if his death can be linked directly to the
fall at 11.30am on Sunday, February 13.

A 34-year-old man who was with Mr Burns when he fell, said a branch and
a tree 15ft apart looked like they had been deliberately laid across the
path.

"Dave managed to jump over the branch, but there was no way he could
avoid the tree because the branches meant it was sticking up," said the
man, who asked not to be named.

"He fell heavily onto his side and was dazed and possibly concussed.

"It took him around 20 minutes to come round which was a long time.

"Normally we are straight back on our bikes and off again."

They eventually continued the ride, but David went to Dewsbury District
Hospital the following day and medical staff told him he had damaged a
joint in his shoulder.

page 2

He was allowed home, but collapsed on February 22.

He was taken to Dewsbury District Hospital, but was transferred to Leeds
General Infirmary for specialist care after a serious head injury was
diagnosed. He died last Friday.

David's friend said there had also been problems with obstacles -
including wire - being placed across bridleways and cycle tracks at
Hopton Wood in Mirfield.

David, a single man, has been a market stall trader all his working life
and sold shoes at Huddersfield, Dewsbury and Leeds markets.

A police spokeswoman said today: "A post-mortem has been carried out,
but medical tests are still on-going as to whether the injuries Mr Burns
suffered in the fall contributed to his death.

"Police are aware there have been tensions in the area involving
off-road cyclists and local residents."

Fish wrote:>

Quoted message said:

oh and get this the thing he spent the last 8 years trying (and
failing) to complete is a nature reserve 100% off limits to humans.
This isnt even possible as all nature parks have staff to maintain
the area and ensure no one breaks the rules.

jayzys, give it a rest.... ignore, kill it whatever but leave it alone. Go
ride your bike or something. Post a ride report.... anything but feed the
troll.

small change

what a coincidence that seems to be happening alot these days. I was just
reading an article in Mountain Bike Action about the very same issue.
Apparently some of the more radical land-use groups are booby-trapping
trails. Even legal ones.

Fish said:

Quoted message said:

It's very sad when something as small as trail conflicts leads to
people doing things that risk/take others lives. Strangely I have

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heard of Mountain bikers laying traps to catch out hikers but often
hear of hikers attempts to injure cyclists. Barbed wire, fishing

line,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trees, large rocks,and anything else they can think up. Very very

sad.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've heard reports of the alt.mountain-bike resident troll doing

things

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like that but of course I couldn't comment on if they are accurate
reports or if troll boy is enough of a moron to do something so

stupid.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wait, did I just say that..........

===
Mike Vandeman The Extremist
I waste my time harassing mountain bikers and annoying real
environmentalists and scientists. Want to help? (I spent the

previous 8

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

years fighting something else but got bored)

As a suscriber and reguler poster to alt.moutain-bike I have to admit

I do

Quoted message said:

think mike is harmless although he acts big in newsgroups and on the
internet he has no fact (I have proven this) I set him a simple task

to

Quoted message said:

gather some scientific knoledge proving some of his points. I admit I

set

Quoted message said:

some conditions to ensure they they were traceable / true /

scientifically

Quoted message said:

investigated. He couldnt do this he has little or no reason to hate

bikers

Quoted message said:

and I personally belive he wouldnt even have time to get outeside to

set

Quoted message said:

traps for mauntain bikers.

ESL?

Quoted message said:

It is true that he loves it when we get hurt though. He is definatly

enough

Quoted message said:

of a moron to do things like that but he is apparently 57 years old

so I

Quoted message said:

doubt he would do anything like that

What does age have to do with it?

Perhaps you weren't around when this was posted the first time:

http://www.bikemag.com/news/newsarchive/news_031104/

Former School Principal and Peace Corps Worker Caught in Eco-Terrorism

A 54-year-old management consultant could spend up to 20 years behind
bars for setting up booby traps on New Mexico singletrack. Michael
Delongchamp is a former elementary school principal, Peace Corps worker
and a director for the Behavioral Health Research Center of the
Southwest--apparently a kind enough individual, aside from his
uncontrollable hatred toward mountain bike riders and other trail
users.
Delongchamp was arrested and released on March 6, "on a federal charge
of using hazardous or injurious devices on federal land," according to
a U.S. District Court criminal complaint. These devices, set up west of
Placitas, New Mexico, consisted of metal cables strung across busy
trails and semi-buried wooden boards with nails pointing upright. The
investigation was spurred when the hidden cables injured a mountain
biker and a runner.

http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/messages/2629/2020222.html

http://www.abqjournal.com/news/state/aptrap08-03-04.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

oh and get this the thing he spent the last 8 years trying (and

failing) to

Quoted message said:

complete is a nature reserve 100% off limits to humans. This isnt

even

Quoted message said:

possible as all nature parks have staff to maintain the area and

ensure no

Quoted message said:

one breaks the rules.

Not only is it possible to set areas aside that are 100% off limits to
humans, it has already been done. The National Park Service (U.S.) and
sevearl private organizations have set aside areas. The Lakes of
Castravalva would be one example.

<snip>

R

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

oh and get this the thing he spent the last 8 years trying (and

failing) to

Quoted message said:

complete is a nature reserve 100% off limits to humans. This isnt

even

Quoted message said:

possible as all nature parks have staff to maintain the area and

ensure no

Quoted message said:

one breaks the rules.

Not only is it possible to set areas aside that are 100% off limits to
humans, it has already been done. The National Park Service (U.S.) and
sevearl private organizations have set aside areas. The Lakes of
Castravalva would be one example.

Quoted message said:

Well im not being offensive to you this isnt my aim but clearly you have

been mislead if there is noone in these place there is noone to prove there
is no-one in there ...if you get my meaning. Who ever set these places aside
for this purpose will have rangers or something just to ensure that no one
goes in there.

look at it logically the only way to tell if a place is human free ..is to
go in and have a look. if there is no one there to keep people out ..people
will go in its human nature to want to go to places that they are not
allowed and to do things that they are not allowed. And according to the
national park services's own website they let people in as long as you have
a pass ....as far i I can see ..they make no mention of any parks completely
off limits to humans.
No offence but are you sure you got your names right .. I just did a web
search for "Castravalva" and apparently it's a Dr who character and the
lakes of Castravalva got no hits whatsoever.

We are missing the original point here anyway I dont care if it is possible
to set nature asside as 100% human free I dont even care if it has been done
I dont particually agree with it but if dont strongly disagree either.

I think that the point of this post was to prove Mike Vandemans stupidiy and
his inability to produce facts and figures.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As a suscriber and reguler poster to alt.moutain-bike I have to admit

I do

Quoted message said:

think mike is harmless although he acts big in newsgroups and on the
internet he has no fact (I have proven this) I set him a simple task

to

Quoted message said:

gather some scientific knoledge proving some of his points. I admit I

set

Quoted message said:

some conditions to ensure they they were traceable / true /

scientifically

Quoted message said:

investigated. He couldnt do this he has little or no reason to hate

bikers

Quoted message said:

and I personally belive he wouldnt even have time to get outeside to

set

Quoted message said:

traps for mauntain bikers.

I too think mike's harmless.He just jerking everyone's chain with his
fabricated stories and posts. And I think he knows that he's not
fooling anyone.

routebeer wrote:

Hehehe...I like your handle Routebeer.

Mike

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:53:16 +0100, FeltnA <[email hidden]> wrote:

..http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15280150%26method=full%26siteid=50060%26page=1%26headline=biker%2ddeath%2dprobe-name_page.html
..
..Biker death probe
..
..Mar 10 2005
..
..By Andrew Hirst, The Huddersfield Daily Examiner
..
..
..David Burns
..
..POLICE are probing the death of cyclist who fell from his bike after
..hitting a tree which may have been deliberately placed across a bridleway.
..
..Local residents and dog-walkers are thought to have taken exception to
..off-road cyclists using Coxley Woods, near New Hall Prison, close to
..Flockton and a cyclist revealed today there had been a history of
..problems in the wood.
..
..David Burns, 38, of Mirfield, died more than two weeks after he hit a
..tree laid across the bridleway in the wood.
..
..Police are now investigating if his death can be linked directly to the
..fall at 11.30am on Sunday, February 13.
..
..A 34-year-old man who was with Mr Burns when he fell, said a branch and
..a tree 15ft apart looked like they had been deliberately laid across the
..path.

He can't blame a tree on his death. He should have ridden defensively, and not
hit it.

.."Dave managed to jump over the branch, but there was no way he could
..avoid the tree because the branches meant it was sticking up," said the
..man, who asked not to be named.
..
.."He fell heavily onto his side and was dazed and possibly concussed.
..
.."It took him around 20 minutes to come round which was a long time.
..
.."Normally we are straight back on our bikes and off again."
..
..They eventually continued the ride, but David went to Dewsbury District
..Hospital the following day and medical staff told him he had damaged a
..joint in his shoulder.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:48:47 -0700, Raptor <[email hidden]> wrote:

..FeltnA wrote:
..> http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15280150%26method=full%26siteid=50060%26page=1%26headline=biker%2ddeath%2dprobe-name_page.html
..
..Why would anyone ride down (or up) a trail faster than they can stop
..safely, or at the very least slow-speed flop in soft bushes OR hard ground?

Uh, mountain bikers are, how do I say this, NOT VERY BRIGHT!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On 18 Mar 2005 14:27:14 -0800, "DecSim" <[email hidden]> wrote:

..It's very sad when something as small as trail conflicts leads to
..people doing things that risk/take others lives.

Nonsense. It was his own fault for not riding defensively. Trees fal on paths
all the time.

Strangely I have never
..heard of Mountain bikers laying traps to catch out hikers but often
..hear of hikers attempts to injure cyclists. Barbed wire, fishing line,
..trees, large rocks,and anything else they can think up. Very very sad.

Maybe you should ask yourself WHY?

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Fish said:

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

oh and get this the thing he spent the last 8 years trying (and

failing) to

Quoted message said:

complete is a nature reserve 100% off limits to humans. This isnt

even

Quoted message said:

possible as all nature parks have staff to maintain the area and

ensure no

Quoted message said:

one breaks the rules.

Not only is it possible to set areas aside that are 100% off limits

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

humans, it has already been done. The National Park Service (U.S.)

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sevearl private organizations have set aside areas. The Lakes of
Castravalva would be one example.

Quoted message said:

Well im not being offensive to you this isnt my aim but clearly you

have

Quoted message said:

been mislead if there is noone in these place there is noone to prove

there

Quoted message said:

is no-one in there ...if you get my meaning. Who ever set these

places aside

Quoted message said:

for this purpose will have rangers or something just to ensure that

no one

Quoted message said:

goes in there.

You have missed a key point. It is possible to close an area, and
secure its points of ingress and egress, without venturing inside. It
really depends on the type of resource being protected.

Quoted message said:

look at it logically the only way to tell if a place is human free

...is to

Quoted message said:

go in and have a look. if there is no one there to keep people out

...people

Quoted message said:

will go in its human nature to want to go to places that they are not
allowed and to do things that they are not allowed.

The second step in resource protection, after securing ingress and
egress points is to expunge or restrict access to information on a
resource.

Quoted message said:

And according to the
national park services's own website they let people in as long as

you have

Quoted message said:

a pass ....as far i I can see ..they make no mention of any parks

completely

Quoted message said:

off limits to humans.

Look for areas that are closed for resouce protection. You will find
three levels of closure: Open to guided tours only, Closed to the
public (but open to research and observation, and finally, Closed to
all activity.

Quoted message said:

No offence but are you sure you got your names right .. I just did a

web

Quoted message said:

search for "Castravalva" and apparently it's a Dr who character and

the

Quoted message said:

lakes of Castravalva got no hits whatsoever.

Climbers and others often name new routes, or new discoveries after
"current" pop culture.

Quoted message said:

We are missing the original point here anyway I dont care if it is

possible

Quoted message said:

to set nature asside as 100% human free I dont even care if it has

been done

Quoted message said:

I dont particually agree with it but if dont strongly disagree

either.

Quoted message said:

I think that the point of this post was to prove Mike Vandemans

stupidiy and

Quoted message said:

his inability to produce facts and figures.

You have missed his point. Google up his posts from a few years ago. He
is not around to produce "facts and figures." Dr. Vandeman is
attempting to be a catalyst. Just like his "work" to create human free
habitat. He has often said that his part, beyond his un-mown backyard,
is to inspire others to carry out the actual work needed to create the
habitat.

You have missed the point of Dr. Vandeman's arguments if you think it
is about science. Ol'doc has a background in science and math, but
falls back on the philosophical concept of truth to put forward his
arguments. Truth, is subjective. As are the majority of Dr. Vandeman's
arguments.

R

Quoted message said:

You have missed his point. Google up his posts from a few years ago. He
is not around to produce "facts and figures." Dr. Vandeman is
attempting to be a catalyst. Just like his "work" to create human free
habitat. He has often said that his part, beyond his un-mown backyard,
is to inspire others to carry out the actual work needed to create the
habitat.

You have missed the point of Dr. Vandeman's arguments if you think it
is about science. Ol'doc has a background in science and math, but
falls back on the philosophical concept of truth to put forward his
arguments. Truth, is subjective. As are the majority of Dr. Vandeman's
arguments.

R

Oh No, another one!!

Fish wrote:
< stuff snipped>

I hope that you are bright and interested enough to be re-focused to the
best part of this ng, discussing bikes and biking.
Things will always get posted here that have no value to the ng, the
proof is that they always have.
The only thing you can do to change that is to lower the percentage of
"noise" by raising the percentage of valuable and interesting discussion
on bikes and biking.

I was supposed to go to Moab this weekend, but cancelled because of
weather. It has been a pretty tough winter here in the SW, and it is
snowing even again. Phil's World and The Road Apple have been great, but
I am so jonesing for some more single track.
Spring is knocking on the door, the Salty is listening, so am I.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
remove "mydebt" to reply

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:21:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:53:16 +0100, FeltnA <[email hidden]> wrote:

.http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15280150%26method=full%26siteid=50060%26page=1%26headline=biker%2ddeath%2dprobe-name_page.html
.
.Biker death probe
.
.Mar 10 2005
.
.By Andrew Hirst, The Huddersfield Daily Examiner
.
.David Burns
.
.POLICE are probing the death of cyclist who fell from his bike after
.hitting a tree which may have been deliberately placed across a bridleway.
.
.Local residents and dog-walkers are thought to have taken exception to
.off-road cyclists using Coxley Woods, near New Hall Prison, close to
.Flockton and a cyclist revealed today there had been a history of
.problems in the wood.
.
.David Burns, 38, of Mirfield, died more than two weeks after he hit a
.tree laid across the bridleway in the wood.
.

Seems more like he was killed by one of your supporters.

He did not kill himself, he was killed by the deliberate action of
another. Even if it was illegal for him to ride there (not clear),
being murdered by a vigilante is a steep price.

Voluntary manslaughter or second degree murder charges for the person
who placed the branch. And you support that.

But sociopaths like you do not care.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:45:15 GMT, Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:

..On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:21:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>
..wrote:
..
..>On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:53:16 +0100, FeltnA <[email hidden]> wrote:
..>
..>.http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15280150%26method=full%26siteid=50060%26page=1%26headline=biker%2ddeath%2dprobe-name_page.html
..>.
..>.Biker death probe
..>.
..>.Mar 10 2005
..>.
..>.By Andrew Hirst, The Huddersfield Daily Examiner
..>.
..>.David Burns
..>.
..>.POLICE are probing the death of cyclist who fell from his bike after
..>.hitting a tree which may have been deliberately placed across a bridleway.
..>.
..>.Local residents and dog-walkers are thought to have taken exception to
..>.off-road cyclists using Coxley Woods, near New Hall Prison, close to
..>.Flockton and a cyclist revealed today there had been a history of
..>.problems in the wood.
..>.
..>.David Burns, 38, of Mirfield, died more than two weeks after he hit a
..>.tree laid across the bridleway in the wood.
..>.
..Seems more like he was killed by one of your supporters.
..
..He did not kill himself, he was killed by the deliberate action of
..another.

So if a tree falls on the trail, and then a mountain biker kills himself by
running into it at too high a speed, it was the TREE'S fault???? You have to be
kidding. Or God's fault? Why are mountain bikers afraid to tell the truth: they
don't know how to ride!!!

Even if it was illegal for him to ride there (not clear),
..being murdered by a vigilante is a steep price.
..
..Voluntary manslaughter or second degree murder charges for the person
..who placed the branch. And you support that.
..
..But sociopaths like you do not care.
..
..Happy trails,
..Gary (net.yogi.bear)

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On 19 Mar 2005 08:59:40 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:

..
..Fish wrote:
..> > <snip>
..> >
..> >
..> > > oh and get this the thing he spent the last 8 years trying (and
..> > failing) to
..> > > complete is a nature reserve 100% off limits to humans. This isnt
..> > even
..> > > possible as all nature parks have staff to maintain the area and
..> > ensure no
..> > > one breaks the rules.
..> >
..> > Not only is it possible to set areas aside that are 100% off limits
..to
..> > humans, it has already been done. The National Park Service (U.S.)
..and
..> > sevearl private organizations have set aside areas. The Lakes of
..> > Castravalva would be one example.
..>
..> >
..> >Well im not being offensive to you this isnt my aim but clearly you
..have
..> been mislead if there is noone in these place there is noone to prove
..there
..> is no-one in there ...if you get my meaning. Who ever set these
..places aside
..> for this purpose will have rangers or something just to ensure that
..no one
..> goes in there.
..
..You have missed a key point. It is possible to close an area, and
..secure its points of ingress and egress, without venturing inside. It
..really depends on the type of resource being protected.

And it isn't necessary to "enforce" it, especially if you make it hard to get
to, by removing all nearby roads & trails. That would rule out 99% of humans.

..> look at it logically the only way to tell if a place is human free
....is to
..> go in and have a look. if there is no one there to keep people out
....people
..> will go in its human nature to want to go to places that they are not
..> allowed and to do things that they are not allowed.
..
..The second step in resource protection, after securing ingress and
..egress points is to expunge or restrict access to information on a
..resource.

Correct, e.g. de-mapping it.

..> And according to the
..> national park services's own website they let people in as long as
..you have
..> a pass ....as far i I can see ..they make no mention of any parks
..completely
..> off limits to humans.
..
..Look for areas that are closed for resouce protection. You will find
..three levels of closure: Open to guided tours only, Closed to the
..public (but open to research and observation, and finally, Closed to
..all activity.

I haven't any confirmed examples of the latter. Have you? Biologists are always
allowed access.

..> No offence but are you sure you got your names right .. I just did a
..web
..> search for "Castravalva" and apparently it's a Dr who character and
..the
..> lakes of Castravalva got no hits whatsoever.
..
..Climbers and others often name new routes, or new discoveries after
.."current" pop culture.
..
..
..>
..> We are missing the original point here anyway I dont care if it is
..possible
..> to set nature asside as 100% human free I dont even care if it has
..been done
..> I dont particually agree with it but if dont strongly disagree
..either.
..>
..> I think that the point of this post was to prove Mike Vandemans
..stupidiy and
..> his inability to produce facts and figures.
..
..You have missed his point. Google up his posts from a few years ago. He
..is not around to produce "facts and figures." Dr. Vandeman is
..attempting to be a catalyst. Just like his "work" to create human free
..habitat. He has often said that his part, beyond his un-mown backyard,
..is to inspire others to carry out the actual work needed to create the
..habitat.
..
..You have missed the point of Dr. Vandeman's arguments if you think it
..is about science. Ol'doc has a background in science and math, but
..falls back on the philosophical concept of truth to put forward his
..arguments. Truth, is subjective. As are the majority of Dr. Vandeman's
..arguments.
..
..R

Facts are one thing, but no amount of facts will lead you to a "should"
(morality). That requires an act of morality -- a community creating an
agreed-upon rule of ethics.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande