Anti-Vac Arrogance

Mark Probert said:

ttp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-
607804,00.html

Who Needs Shots? A lot of parents are still choosing not
to vaccinate their babies. But at what risk? By
CHRISTINE GORMAN

Excellent article. Thank you for showing that arrogance in
the face of preventable, human tragedy is an ugliness we can
do without.

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-
607804,00.html

Who Needs Shots? A lot of parents are still choosing not
to vaccinate their babies. But at what risk? By
CHRISTINE GORMAN

Monday, Apr. 12, 2004 When an Iowa College student
returned from a class trip to India last

month,

Quoted message said:

he brought back more than the usual souvenirs. The man,
19, was infected with measles, a disease that is largely
under control in the U.S. but is endemic in India and can
cause high fevers, deafness, inflammation of the brain and
even death. He wound up infecting at least one other
person on

the

Quoted message said:

plane, and Iowa health officials confirmed last week that
a third person later developed the disease on the ground.

What happened? It turns out the young man, like several
others in his college group, comes from a family that
doesn't believe in vaccination,

and

Quoted message said:

so he had never had his measles shots. Altogether, six
people in the group developed the illness while in India.
When doctors at the Iowa Department

of

Quoted message said:

Public Health learned about their condition, they asked
the ailing

students

Quoted message said:

and their unvaccinated traveling companions to delay their
return to the U.S. so as not to spread the infection.
Instead, says Kevin Teale, a spokesman for the public-
health department, the 19year-old "came back

early

Quoted message said:

against our advice."

----
Comment: An excellent example of 'free choice not to
vaccinate' arrogance.

With any luck, the Iowa outbreak may be limited to just
the three cases.

But

Quoted message said:

it raises an important question: Why would anyone choose
not to get vaccinated? For some it's a matter of religion.
For others it's a concern about possible side effects. All
vaccines have some small risk. Some

parents

Quoted message said:

and even a few doctors also are worried that recent
increases in the rate

of

Quoted message said:

autism and earlier occurrences of Type 1 diabetes could
have been caused

by

Quoted message said:

routine childhood vaccines.

It has taken a while, but the best and largest studies
have shown that not to be the case. Eighteen months ago, a
giant study of practically every child in Denmark found no
causative link between autism and the so-called MMR shot -
the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella.
Another big Danish study last week found no link between
various childhood

vaccines

Quoted message said:

and Type 1 diabetes.

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for
any reason -

not

Quoted message said:

to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves but
everyone around them.

From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

Well, I guess you should hide in your house then, because
the great un-vaccinated are out there.

M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5 said:

tp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-
607804,00.html

Who Needs Shots? A lot of parents are still choosing not
to vaccinate their babies. But at what risk?

That measles vaccine half killed me. And I still got the
measles. You can keep
it.

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

time.com0,9171,1101040412Open ↗
607804,00.html

(Yet another example of crappy reporting!)

Quoted message said:

Who Needs Shots? A lot of parents are still choosing not
to vaccinate their babies. But

at

Quoted message said:

what risk?

Quoted message said:

By CHRISTINE GORMAN

Quoted message said:

Monday, Apr. 12, 2004 When an Iowa College student
returned from a class trip to India last

month,

Quoted message said:

he brought back more than the usual souvenirs. The
man, 19, was

infected

Quoted message said:

with measles, a disease that is largely under control in
the U.S. but

is

Quoted message said:

endemic in India and can cause high fevers, deafness,
inflammation of

the

Quoted message said:

brain and even death.

lol....Virtually *anything* can cause death.

He wound up infecting at least one other person on the

Quoted message said:

plane, and Iowa health officials confirmed last week
that a third

person

Quoted message said:

later developed the disease on the ground.

Ages? Vaccination status? I'm betting those infected were
also adults, simply because if they were kids, health
officials would use that fact in their propaganda.

Quoted message said:

What happened? It turns out the young man, like several
others in his college group, comes from a family that
doesn't believe in

vaccination, and

Quoted message said:

so he had never had his measles shots. Altogether, six
people in the

group

Quoted message said:

developed the illness while in India.

Again, age and vaccination status? I'm inclined to believe
most, if not all, of the others infected *were* vaccinated,
for the same reason as above. (I think health officials
would announce that they--the others infected--also were not
vaccinated, if that was the case. No value, and perhaps some
harm, in publicizing the fact that they were vaccinated.)

When doctors at the Iowa Department of

Quoted message said:

Public Health learned about their condition, they asked
the ailing

students

Quoted message said:

and their unvaccinated traveling companions to delay their
return to

the

Quoted message said:

U.S. so as not to spread the infection. Instead, says
Kevin Teale, a spokesman for the public-health department,
the 19year-old "came back

early

Quoted message said:

against our advice."

Quoted message said:

----
Comment: An excellent example of 'free choice not to
vaccinate'

arrogance.

Quoted message said:

With any luck, the Iowa outbreak may be limited to just
the three

cases. But

Quoted message said:

it raises an important question: Why would anyone choose
not to get vaccinated? For some it's a matter of religion.
For others it's a

concern

Quoted message said:

about possible side effects. All vaccines have some small
risk. Some

parents

Quoted message said:

and even a few doctors also are worried that recent
increases in the

rate of

Quoted message said:

autism and earlier occurrences of Type 1 diabetes could
have been

caused by

Quoted message said:

routine childhood vaccines.

Forgoing vaccination boils down to three reasons: Safety,
efficacy, and/or necessity. IME, the majority of non-
vaccinators cite the third reason, and their
beliefs/opinions are not predicated upon "herd immunity";
they're simply, despite the dire warnings of possible
complications/sequelae of a disease, no more afraid of
formerly routine (endemic) diseases than they are of, say, a
cold or the flu.

Quoted message said:

It has taken a while, but the best and largest studies
have shown that

not

Quoted message said:

to be the case. Eighteen months ago, a giant study of
practically

every

Quoted message said:

child in Denmark found no causative link between
autism and the

so-called

Quoted message said:

MMR shot - the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and
rubella.

Another

Quoted message said:

big Danish study last week found no link between various
childhood

vaccines

Quoted message said:

and Type 1 diabetes.

Guess Ms. Gorman decided to cram as many vaccine/vaccination
issues into her article as possible! <g>

Quoted message said:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide
- for any

reason - not

Quoted message said:

to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves but
everyone

around

Quoted message said:

them.

Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt,
or (if a physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or...
Being unvaccinated, in and of itself, poses a danger TO NO
ONE. You might assert that an individual poses a
*potential* danger once he/she is infected, but vaccinated
individuals who've nonetheless contracted a given disease
pose the same danger.

Quoted message said:

From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

(If you want to read the vaccination opinions views of
another Gorman [Linda; the director of the Independence
Institute's Health Care Policy Center], you can find some at
i2i.orgauthor.aspxOpen ↗. The II HCPC's
February bulletin had a good article, "Do We Spend Too Much
on Immunizations?" in its February issue;
i2i.orghcpcfeb2004.aspxOpen ↗.)

JG said:

Quoted message said:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide -
for any reason - not to vaccinate, they are endangering
not just themselves but everyone around them.

Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt,
or (if a physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or...
Being unvaccinated, in and of itself, poses a danger TO NO
ONE. ...

The article could have just as well concluded:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for
any reason
- to visit Third World countries, they are endangering not
just themselves but everyone around them.

or:

The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can
be bringing disease.

Quoted message said:

From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

Time! that has to be the main mouthpiece of the cartel, if
there ever was one. Last time I looked at that piece of
propaganda it was cover to cover bin laden and co fearmongering--
just another patsy for the Illuminati fake war on terror
whale.tobin laden.htmlOpen ↗

Roger Schlafly said:

JG said:

Quoted message said:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide -
for any reason - not to vaccinate, they are endangering
not just themselves but everyone around them.

Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt,
or (if a physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or...
Being unvaccinated, in and of itself, poses a danger TO
NO ONE. ...

The article could have just as well concluded:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for
any reason
- to visit Third World countries, they are endangering not
just themselves but everyone around them.

or:

The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can
be bringing disease.

Could it possibly be the case that Roger is at last
getting a clue?

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project ratbags.comrsolesOpen ↗
The Green Light ratbags.comgreenlightOpen ↗
Quintessence of the Loon ratbags.comloonOpen ↗
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

In article <[email hidden]>,
"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t

Quoted message said:

tp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-
607804,00.html

Who Needs Shots? A lot of parents are still choosing not
to vaccinate their babies. But at what risk? By
CHRISTINE GORMAN

Monday, Apr. 12, 2004 When an Iowa College student
returned from a class trip to India last month, he
brought back more than the usual souvenirs. The man, 19,
was infected with measles, a disease that is largely
under control in the U.S. but is endemic in India and can
cause high fevers, deafness, inflammation of the brain
and even death. He wound up infecting at least one other
person on the plane, and Iowa health officials confirmed
last week that a third person later developed the disease
on the ground.

What happened? It turns out the young man, like several
others in his college group, comes from a family that
doesn't believe in vaccination, and so he had never had
his measles shots. Altogether, six people in the group
developed the illness while in India. When doctors at the
Iowa Department of Public Health learned about their
condition, they asked the ailing students and their
unvaccinated traveling companions to delay their return to
the U.S. so as not to spread the infection. Instead, says
Kevin Teale, a spokesman for the public-health department,
the 19year-old "came back early against our advice."

----
Comment: An excellent example of 'free choice not to
vaccinate' arrogance.

Indeed. The most arrogant part was that the young man
refused to wait to come back to the U.S. and hence infected
at least one person back in Iowa.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

(john) said:

Quoted message said:

From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

Time! that has to be the main mouthpiece of the cartel, if
there ever was one. Last time I looked at that piece of
propaganda it was cover to cover bin laden and co fearmongering--
just another patsy for the Illuminati fake war on terror
whale.tobin laden.htmlOpen ↗

Nice attempt to change the topic because you don't like what
the TIME story says.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Bowditch said:

Roger Schlafly said:

JG said:

> The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide
> - for any reason - not to vaccinate, they are
> endangering not just themselves but everyone around
> them.
Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or
hunt, or (if a physician/surgeon) prescibe
drugs/operate, or... Being unvaccinated, in and of
itself, poses a danger TO NO ONE. ...

The article could have just as well concluded:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide -
for any reason
- to visit Third World countries, they are endangering
not just themselves but everyone around them.

or:

The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India
can be bringing disease.

Could it possibly be the case that Roger is at last
getting a clue?

That remains to be seen.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

"JG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" <M.a.r.k
P.r.o.b.e.r.t [email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-
607804,00.html

(Yet another example of crappy reporting!)

Quoted message said:

Who Needs Shots?
A lot of parents are still choosing not to vaccinate
their babies. But

at

Quoted message said:

what risk?

Quoted message said:

By CHRISTINE GORMAN

Quoted message said:

Monday, Apr. 12, 2004 When an Iowa College student
returned from a class trip to India last

month,

Quoted message said:

he brought back more than the usual souvenirs. The man,
19, was

infected

Quoted message said:

with measles, a disease that is largely under control in
the U.S. but

is

Quoted message said:

endemic in India and can cause high fevers, deafness,
inflammation of

the

Quoted message said:

brain and even death.

lol....Virtually *anything* can cause death.

He wound up infecting at least one other person on the

Quoted message said:

plane, and Iowa health officials confirmed last week
that a third

person

Quoted message said:

later developed the disease on the ground.

Ages? Vaccination status? I'm betting those infected were
also adults, simply because if they were kids, health
officials would use that fact in their propaganda.

cdc.govmm53d319a1.htmOpen ↗

So what?

"Of the three Iowa patients, one had been vaccinated for
measles, "but, unfortunately, vaccine is not 100 percent
guaranteed that you will not get measles," she said."

press-citizen.com033104measles.htmOpen ↗

regardless, you're wrong. The vaccinated case was a 21 year
old male exposed to the incident case on a flight from
Detroit to Cedar rapids. Note, Roger, you don't have to
leave the country to get exposed and catch measles - and
yes, even vaccination is not 100% effective.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What happened? It turns out the young man, like several
others in his college group, comes from a family that
doesn't believe in

vaccination, and

Quoted message said:

so he had never had his measles shots. Altogether, six
people in the

group

Quoted message said:

developed the illness while in India.

Again, age and vaccination status? I'm inclined to believe
most, if not all, of the others infected *were*
vaccinated,

Some were. Some were not. The incident case was not. The
second US case was. The third case is unknown. The school
group was from a college were exemptor status is common. It
was reported that "A high percentage of students from the
college are reported to be unvaccinated because of
nonmedical exemptions. Six measles cases occurred among the
students while they were in India."

Quoted message said:

for the same reason as above. (I think health officials
would announce that they--the others infected--also were
not vaccinated, if that was the case. No value, and
perhaps some harm, in publicizing the fact that they were
vaccinated.)

Rather than conjecture, why not try and find out? I did.
Seems that simple statements from CDC and others strongly
suggest that the incident case and the six other infecteds
were unvaccinated.

"The index patient was a member of a group of approximately
28 students and two supervisors from college A in Iowa who
had traveled to India, where approximately 52,000 cases of
measles were reported in 2002 (4). A high percentage of
students from college A are reported to be unvaccinated
because of nonmedical exemptions. Six measles cases occurred
among the students while they were in India. The group had
been scheduled to return to the United States on March 7. To
avoid potential spread during the prolonged airline flights,
IDPH recommended that these six students stay in India for
at least 4 days after rash onset (i.e., the period of
infectivity). Contacts of these infectious students who
lacked immunity for measles were asked to stay in India for
18 days after the last possible exposure. Despite these
recommendations, the index patient, who was an unvaccinated
contact, returned to the United States early, flying on
March 12 from New Delhi through Amsterdam and the Detroit
Metro Airport to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. During his travel, he
had a cough and conjunctivitis, and within 24 hours of his
arrival in Iowa on March 13, he had a rash. A local
physician reported the case to IDPH. Subsequently, measles
was confirmed serologically, and throat swab and urine
specimens were collected for viral isolation."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When doctors at the Iowa Department of Public Health
learned about their condition, they asked the ailing

students

Quoted message said:

and their unvaccinated traveling companions to delay
their return to

the

Quoted message said:

U.S. so as not to spread the infection. Instead, says
Kevin Teale, a spokesman for the public-health
department, the 19year-old "came back

early

Quoted message said:

against our advice."

Quoted message said:

----
Comment: An excellent example of 'free choice not to
vaccinate'

arrogance.

Quoted message said:

With any luck, the Iowa outbreak may be limited to just
the three

cases. But

Quoted message said:

it raises an important question: Why would anyone choose
not to get vaccinated? For some it's a matter of
religion. For others it's a

concern

Quoted message said:

about possible side effects. All vaccines have some
small risk. Some

parents

Quoted message said:

and even a few doctors also are worried that recent
increases in the

rate of

Quoted message said:

autism and earlier occurrences of Type 1 diabetes could
have been

caused by

Quoted message said:

routine childhood vaccines.

Forgoing vaccination boils down to three reasons: Safety,
efficacy, and/or necessity. IME, the majority of non-
vaccinators cite the third reason, and their
beliefs/opinions are not predicated upon "herd immunity";
they're simply, despite the dire warnings of possible
complications/sequelae of a disease, no more afraid of
formerly routine (endemic) diseases than they are of, say,
a cold or the flu.

These were philosophical exempters ("...A high percentage of
students from college A are reported to be unvaccinated
because of nonmedical exemptions."😉

The exemptor who got on the plane and proceded to infect two
others in the US is an ass.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It has taken a while, but the best and largest studies
have shown that

not

Quoted message said:

to be the case. Eighteen months ago, a giant study of
practically

every

Quoted message said:

child in Denmark found no causative link between autism
and the

so-called

Quoted message said:

MMR shot - the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and
rubella.

Another

Quoted message said:

big Danish study last week found no link between various
childhood

vaccines

Quoted message said:

and Type 1 diabetes.

Guess Ms. Gorman decided to cram as many
vaccine/vaccination issues into her article as
possible! <g>

Yep <g>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide -
for any

reason - not

Quoted message said:

to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves
but everyone

around

Quoted message said:

them.

Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or
hunt, or (if a physician/surgeon) prescibe
drugs/operate, or... Being unvaccinated, in and of
itself, poses a danger TO NO ONE.

Well, it certainly turned out different in this case, didn't
it. I feel sorry for the 21 year old that was exposed
because of the selfishness of the exemptor.

Quoted message said:

You might assert that an individual poses a *potential*
danger once he/she is infected, but vaccinated individuals
who've nonetheless contracted a given disease pose the
same danger.

In this case the exemptor went to a country where measles is
endemic, knew that he was exposed, was told NOT to go back
to the US and went anyway. Idiot.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

(If you want to read the vaccination opinions views of
another Gorman [Linda; the director of the Independence
Institute's Health Care Policy Center], you can find some
at i2i.orgauthor.aspxOpen ↗. The II HCPC's
February bulletin had a good article, "Do We Spend Too
Much on Immunizations?" in its February issue;
i2i.orghcpcfeb2004.aspxOpen ↗.)

And? Gorman has one article about vaccinations and it
pertained to the database proposal, not the safety or
efficacy of vaccines.

The other article is a rambling about how much is spent and
still not everyone is vaccinated in Colorado. Big wup.

The Iowa incident once again demonstrates the stupidity of
some folks. In this caqse its a vaccine exemptor who thinks
that divine grace will keep him well.

Yeh, Sure.

js

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Schlafly said:

JG said:

Quoted message said:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide -
for any reason - not to vaccinate, they are
endangering not just themselves but everyone around
them.

Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or
hunt, or (if a physician/surgeon) prescibe
drugs/operate, or... Being unvaccinated, in and of
itself, poses a danger TO NO ONE. ...

The article could have just as well concluded:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for
any reason
- to visit Third World countries, they are endangering not
just themselves but everyone around them.

or:

The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can
be bringing disease.

Very good. And with the interconnectedness of the world and
the frequency with which people travel between continents,
that means that vaccines can prevent outbreaks in the U.S.
brought by international travelers who were not vaccinated.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Anti-Vac Arrogance
From: Orac [email hidden]
Date: 4/6/04 7:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Indeed. The most arrogant part was that the young man
refused to wait to come back to the U.S. and hence infected
at least one person back in Iowa.

This seems antecdotal at best.

We need an in depth study.

We need a "control person".

'We need an "infected person."

We need then to replicate the prior events to see if we can
reproduce the proposed results.

Odds of this happening is probably over 100 million to one.

We will need to test for the next 100 million years to get
to the truth.

DrC PhD

In article <[email hidden]>,

john said:

Quoted message said:

From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

Time! that has to be the main mouthpiece of the cartel, if
there ever was one. Last time I looked at that piece of
propaganda it was cover to cover bin laden and co fearmongering--
just another patsy for the Illuminati fake war on terror
whale.tobin laden.htmlOpen ↗

When it comes to fearmongering, John just hates competition
for the whale.to site.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

DRCEEPHD said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Anti-Vac Arrogance From: Orac
[email hidden] Date: 4/6/04 7:47 PM Eastern Daylight
Time Message-id: <orac-
[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Indeed. The most arrogant part was that the young man
refused to wait to come back to the U.S. and hence
infected at least one person back in Iowa.

This seems antecdotal at best.

We need an in depth study.

We need a "control person".

'We need an "infected person."

We need then to replicate the prior events to see if we can
reproduce the proposed results.

Odds of this happening is probably over 100 million to one.

We will need to test for the next 100 million years to get
to the truth.

I see Chuck knows as much about mathematics as he does about
every other subject he posts on.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Schlafly said:

JG said:

Quoted message said:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide -
for any reason - not to vaccinate, they are endangering
not just themselves but everyone around them.

Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt,
or (if a physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or...
Being unvaccinated, in and of itself, poses a danger TO
NO ONE. ...

The article could have just as well concluded:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for
any reason
- to visit Third World countries, they are endangering not
just themselves but everyone around them.

or:

The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can
be bringing disease.

You don't really believe, that Roger. If you did, you
wouldn't write some of the stupid things you write about the
lack of need for vaccination.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 03:40:52 GMT, [email hidden] (David

Wright) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Roger

Schlafly said:

The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can
be bringing disease.

You don't really believe, that Roger. If you did, you
wouldn't write some of the stupid things you write about
the lack of need for vaccination.

Oh, he most certainly does believe it. You see, Roger thinks
we should just ban airplanes from India.

PF

Well David,

John loses, as Terrorism takes the cake. Who did start that
?

Cheers, Rod. "David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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In article
<[email hidden]>, john

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From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

Time! that has to be the main mouthpiece of the cartel,
if there ever was one. Last time I looked at that piece
of propaganda it was cover to cover bin laden and co fearmongering--
just another patsy for the Illuminati fake war on terror
whale.tobin laden.htmlOpen ↗

When it comes to fearmongering, John just hates
competition for the whale.to site.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 7 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message

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[censored] removed........................

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Roger isn't the subject. Why is it the *gang* always
want to get

personal

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and

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put others down??