Anyone recommend Hunter frames?

thinuniking said:

*What about the "blizzard" frames they seem very like the hunter
one's?
http://tinyurl.com/3h4m *

It would be. But think about how cool it would be to have the one and
only Hunter in the UK. Does anyone in the UK have a Hunter yet?

--
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Hi,

there are one Hunter in Germany 🙂

Roland

--
wendino - Der Einradladen

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I can get the Hunter with brake bosses, but I'd have to have them done
seperately on the Blizzard I think. Plus powdercoating or respraying the
boss area. Plus it's a 22.2mm seatpost. Plus they only come in 20" and
24". I would have thought integrated seat clamps would be a big problem
if they got broken wouldn't they? And as John said, there aren't many
Hunters in the UK, so that would be cool. Plus I get the colour choice.
Plus loads of people have Hunters in the US and I've only heard very
positive comments about them, whereas I haven't heard anything good or
bad about Blizzard frames.

Can the (V) brake bosses be fitted in between the legs of the Hunter? If
it's possible, I think it would look pretty cool.

--
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OWS

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john_childs said:

*The most important part of the unicycle, as far as performance goes,
is the wheel. A good hub, good cranks, good pedals, good rim, good
tire, etc. The most important part of the unicycle, as far as comfort
goes, is the saddle.

That said, a good frame does make a difference. A strong frame with
machined bearing holders will be stiffer. There will be less flex and
twisting when climbing. This is even more important if you're running
a brake. If you're running a brake get the better frrame.

The frame is the last part of a unicycle that I'd upgrade. The wheel
and saddle are more important. *

I'd be inclined to agree with everything you've said, but I'm curious as
to know much all that extra tubing adds in weight?
I haven't noticed any flex in the stock Coker frames and I'd be
surprised if you were to find the Hunter gives a noticeable benefit in
that regard unless you're gripping your seat like a gorilla 😄

Much as I think the Hunters are beautiful frames, I think after
lightening my wheel and my saddle the frame will be next. Probably
either titanium or good quality butted Cromo steel 😎

--
GizmoDuck - New Zealands fastest unicyclist

o-kO

"Give a man dead fish, and he feed himself for lunch, teach man to catch
fish, and he feed himself for life. Teach man to wheel ride, and he
make friends everywhere, and even have lunch at their place."

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GizmoDuck said:

*

I'd be inclined to agree with everything you've said, but I'm curious
as to know much all that extra tubing adds in weight?
I haven't noticed any flex in the stock Coker frames and I'd be
surprised if you were to find the Hunter gives a noticeable benefit in
that regard unless you're gripping your seat like a gorilla 😄

Much as I think the Hunters are beautiful frames, I think after
lightening my wheel and my saddle the frame will be next. Probably
either titanium or good quality butted Cromo steel 😎 *

When I was first developing the Super Coker wheel I used the stock Coker
frame, which worked great with a little frame bending to widen it (the
steel is pretty soft). After the wheel started dialing in, the
inadequacies in the stock Coker bearing holders started becoming more
and more evident. Having worked with and ridden GB4 and Hunter frames
extensively now it is super obvious how much slop there is. People that
ride my GB4 29er comment on how tight and smooth it is.

However, if you are staging your upgrades, like I had to do, the wheel
should be first, saddle second, like John said.

The Hunter frame can be done with any style brake mount, as can the
GB4s, also in almost any color.

Rick would be the guy to ask about aluminum, but my understanding is
that, given the same tubing configuration, aluminum would be way too
flexy. Aluminum frames are invariably made of large-diameter tubing to
make them stiffer. The Wilder unicycle frame is an example of this, as
are Cannondale bicycles.

Ben PS's frame is a Sem XL modified to add brake bosses. That frame is
a really nice, stiff one. Its primary drawbacks are the traditional
bearing holders and the limited selection of seatposts. Taking into
account the extensive additional work to add brake bosses and protect
that section with several coats of primer, paint, and gloss, and if I
don't make any money on the process 🙁 , it's about half the price of a
GB4 or Hunter frame.

If there is sufficient demand for that frame, I've already talked with
Sem and the brake boss-adding guy (an internationally-respected bicycle
frame maker) about getting bare frames and powder coating them.
However, I fully support George and Rick. They are extremely
professional and I have nothing but good things to say about them and
their products. Since my thing is to try to put together the best
possible unicycles and unicycle wheels, I tend to recommend their frames
over ones with less desirable (though less expensive) design features.
In addition, each frame they make for me is customized for the
customer's dimensions and intended use. For example, cyberbellum's
Coker frame used a shorter seat tube and a different angle for the
angled downtube, and also his special cross-tube between legs. Tom
Blackwood's GB4 frame has a seat tube sized for his legs.

--
U-Turn - Member of Generation XO

Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.

'29er Tire Study' (http://u-turn.unicyclist.com/29erTireStudy/)

'Strongest Coker Wheel in the World'
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'New York Unicycle Club' (http://www.newyorkunicycle.com)

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U-Turn said:

*Rick would be the guy to ask about aluminum, but my understanding is
that, given the same tubing configuration, aluminum would be way too
flexy. Aluminum frames are invariably made of large-diameter tubing
to make them stiffer. The Wilder unicycle frame is an example of
this, as are Cannondale bicycles.
*

I was afraid of that. Firstly, does Rick ever answer his shop phone?
I've called him multiple times over the last few years and noone's ever
picked up. Second, is titanium (I can get pretty much any material if I
try hard enough) too flexy for a Hunter? Or is it just un-weldable? Any
other light materials that I could use (not magnesium, I have no
intention of screwing up a weld in someone else's shop and having hte
place burn down because of it)? What about sodium? 😉 Thanks for the
info.

Tom Blackwood makes a good point. I ran into this problem with my first
muni. I built it about two "levels" (I never really defined what a level
is) ahead of my skill at the time of making. Then, over the course of
about a month, I jumped up in skill to the point where I was on the
verge of outgrowing the muni. I've since outgrown it for muni and
trials, and wish I would've just made a muni that i would never outgrow.
That alone is a reaon why a Hunter would be worth it. You'll never
outgrow it. And of course, they look great and ride even better (from
the 10 minutes I've ever spent riding a hunter).

--
gerblefranklin - Trials Unicyclist

Don't you think it's a cruel irony that acting like a G.I. Joe in the
army can get you a Medal, while playing with one can get you thrown
out?

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Quoted message said:

And is there any specific reason you haven't called Rick? Go to the
link below and be done. He's really nice, and when I asked he even
offered to send me some bearing bearing housings. I don't reccomend
trying, though, you better be a damn good welder, I know he brazes his
stuff. But seriously, just drop him a line.

I take it he answered that time? 😄

--
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OWS

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Based on what U-Turn posted the true value in the Hunter, GB or KH
frames is the machined bearing holders, not the overall stiffness of
the frames. Would the KH 36" with the normal square crown be equal to
the Hunter 36" frame since they both have machined bearing holders?

--
oxfordrider
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oxfordrider said:

* Would the KH 36" with the normal square crown be equal to the
Hunter 36" frame since they both have machined bearing holders? *

not a ice cubes chance in hell... the KH 36 is almost twice as much
money and is spaced for the Suzie only... the Hunter is totaly custom to
what ever spacing you want,cheaper and comes in alot more colors.

--
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oxfordrider said:

*Based on what U-Turn posted the true value in the Hunter, GB or KH
frames is the machined bearing holders, not the overall stiffness of
the frames. *

Actually I disagree with this. I just didn't want to look
self-promoting. But for clarity here goes:

You really see the value of the entire package when you put together a
really good wheel with a really good frame and a brake. Even with the
36" wheel, with these three things you get really nice braking action
that doesn't rub even on hard ups or downs unless you actuate the brake
lever.

This requires a strong, stiff wheel, good bearing holders, and a stiff
frame.

--
U-Turn - Member of Generation XO

Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.

'29er Tire Study' (http://u-turn.unicyclist.com/29erTireStudy/)

'Strongest Coker Wheel in the World'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/albup39)

'New York Unicycle Club' (http://www.newyorkunicycle.com)

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U-Turn said:

Rick would be the guy to ask about aluminum, but my understanding is
that, given the same tubing configuration, aluminum would be way too
flexy. Aluminum frames are invariably made of large-diameter tubing to
make them stiffer. The Wilder unicycle frame is an example of this, as
are Cannondale bicycles.

Right. A proper aluminum frame is extremely stiff. That's because
flexing always fatigues aluminum, whereas steel can flex elastically
without being harmed. A practicable aluminum frame has to be far
stronger than a comparable steel frame to prevent flexing, and so the
use of oversized tubing is common.

I don't see why there should be a problem making an aluminum Hunter
style frame, though fatter tubing would have to be used.

Ken

U-Turn said:

*
Rick would be the guy to ask about aluminum, but my understanding is
that, given the same tubing configuration, aluminum would be way too
flexy. Aluminum frames are invariably made of large-diameter tubing
to make them stiffer. The Wilder unicycle frame is an example of
this, as are Cannondale bicycles. *

Aluminum is roughly 1/3 the strength and 1/3 the density of steel, so
with all else being equal you can make an equivalent frame by using
tubing that is three times thicker.

However, all else isn't equal. The usual rule of thumb in metal tubing
is to make the wall thickness at least 1/50th of the diameter of the
tube to keep it from denting and buckling like a soda can. Since steel
is so dense and strong this means that the tubing for steel frames has
to be relatively small in diameter to hold up. An "equivalent" aluminum
tube would have three times the wall thickness, which means it could be
stretched out to a 70% larger diameter before it begins to violate the
1/50 rule.

Larger diameter tubing is MUCH stiffer than small diameter tubing, so in
theory the aluminum framed unicycle would be better than steel. On the
other hand, that large diameter tubing might get in the way of your
legs, so there are advantages to the triangulated small, dense tubing
approach that Rick uses. Also, welded aluminum frames need to be heat
treated whereas steel frames can be braised and painted.

The bottom line is that every frame making material has pluses and
minuses. Go with whatever material you like, but don't force one
material to directly substitute for another. Good designers itterate
the geometry until the material and application are well matched. Rick
itterated the steel tubing design and came up with the very good Hunter
geometry. Others have pondered aluminum's nature and come up with very
non-hunter like geometries that also seem to work quite well.

So, to recap the thread - in order of importance:

1) Practice
2) More Practice
3) Even More Practice
4) Better Wheel
5) Better Seat
6) Better Frame
6) Better Components (like brakes)

--
cyberbellum - Level 1.0 rider!

I was standing in the park wondering why frisbees get bigger as they get
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So, since I'm pretty sure that Hunters use 1/2", could I go 50% larger
with 3/4" tubing and retain the same amount of strength? And then I
could do 2x as thick, right? I assume the larger diameter would make up
for the lack in thickness. Also, why does aluminum need heat treating,
and can I TIG the steel if I use steel, rather than brazing? Also,
what's the strength to weight ratio of titanium relative to steel? Is
titanium a reasonable material to atempt to use?

One Wheeled Stallion: That was e-mail about 2 years ago. Back then I was
intending to MIG, but now that I have better access to TIG, I figure I
should try that. I don't even want to bother trying brazing.

--
gerblefranklin - Trials Unicyclist

Don't you think it's a cruel irony that acting like a G.I. Joe in the
army can get you a Medal, while playing with one can get you thrown
out?

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gerblefranklin said:

*So, since I'm pretty sure that Hunters use 1/2", could I go 50%
larger with 3/4" tubing and retain the same amount of strength? And
then I could do 2x as thick, right? I assume the larger diameter would
make up for the lack in thickness. Also, why does aluminum need heat
treating, and can I TIG the steel if I use steel, rather than brazing?
Also, what's the strength to weight ratio of titanium relative to
steel? Is titanium a reasonable material to atempt to use? *

Yes, your diameters and thicknesses sound about right - BUT - my quick
analysis is based on aerospace engineering "rules of thumb", not
detailed calculations. This SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess) level
analysis is useful for making early trade-offs between approaches, but
is not sufficent for doing the actual design work. If you're really
serious then you need to go further and do a few calculations with the
properties of the materials you intend to use. I can help with that if
you need help.

Why does aluminum need to be heat treated? The alloys used for
framebuilding are not very ductile when they are at full strength so
they can't be bent or worked easily in that form. They come from the
manufacturer in a non-hardened state, get bent and welded into the right
shape and then undergo a heat treatment step to bring them to full
strength. This is a pretty common thing to do with exotic alloys.
Knife-making and tool steels are worked soft and then hardened, for
example.

RE: TIG welding steel. The specifics of welding are really well beyond
my knowledge. I don't know if TIG welding is the way to go, but I do
know that some bicycle framebuilders weld up very exotic steels with
great results. The issue as I understand it is that when you weld
exotic steels the heat ruins the carefully developed crystal structures
near the weld and renders the steel ordinary. This "heat affected zone"
is very small with some kinds of welding and so the overall structure
loses virtually no strength. Obviously the skill of the welder plays a
big part.

If you can work with titanium then that's what I'd use. Titanium is as
strong as steel but half the density, so you can either use more (by
volume) and get a stronger frame or keep the geometry constant and make
a much lighter frame. So what's the catch? As metals go, titanium is
kind of "rubbery." If you use exactly the same geometry I belive the
frame will flex about twice as much as a steel frame, so IMHO it would
be better to increase the amount of metal slightly and use bigger tubes
to regain some stiffness. Titalnium is a pain to machine, though. It's
very reactive and tends to micro-weld itself to the edges of cutting
tools.

--
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I was standing in the park wondering why frisbees get bigger as they get
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gerblefranklin said:

*So, since I'm pretty sure that Hunters use 1/2", could I go 50%
larger with 3/4" tubing and retain the same amount of strength? And
then I could do 2x as thick, right? I assume the larger diameter would
make up for the lack in thickness. Also, why does aluminum need heat
treating, and can I TIG the steel if I use steel, rather than brazing?
Also, what's the strength to weight ratio of titanium relative to
steel? Is titanium a reasonable material to atempt to use? *

Yes, your diameters and thicknesses sound about right - BUT - my quick
analysis is based on aerospace engineering "rules of thumb", not
detailed calculations. This SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess) level
analysis is useful for making early trade-offs between approaches, but
is not sufficent for doing the actual design work. If you're really
serious then you need to go further and do a few calculations with the
properties of the materials you intend to use. I can help with that if
you need help.

Why does aluminum need to be heat treated? The alloys used for
framebuilding are not very ductile when they are at full strength so
they can't be bent or worked easily in that form. They come from the
manufacturer in a non-hardened state, get bent and welded into the right
shape and then undergo a heat treatment step to bring them to full
strength. This is a pretty common thing to do with exotic alloys.
Knife-making and tool steels are worked soft and then hardened, for
example.

RE: TIG welding steel. The specifics of welding are really well beyond
my knowledge. I don't know if TIG welding is the way to go, but I do
know that some bicycle framebuilders weld up very exotic steels with
great results. The issue as I understand it is that when you weld
exotic steels the heat ruins the carefully developed crystal structures
near the weld and renders the steel ordinary. This "heat affected zone"
is very small with some kinds of welding and so the overall structure
loses virtually no strength. Obviously the skill of the welder plays a
big part.

If you can work with titanium then that's what I'd use. Titanium is as
strong as steel but half the density, so you can either use more (by
volume) and get a stronger frame or keep the geometry constant and make
a much lighter frame. So what's the catch? As metals go, titanium is
kind of "rubbery." If you use exactly the same geometry I belive the
frame will flex about twice as much as a steel frame, so IMHO it would
be better to increase the amount of metal slightly and use bigger tubes
to regain some stiffness. Titalnium is a pain to machine, though. It's
very reactive and tends to micro-weld itself to the edges of cutting
tools.

--
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Firstly, how complex are the formuli and equations needed to design a
frame? Are they workable by someone with an 11th grade math eduaction?
Is the information needed to work the formuli readily accedssed on the
internet? If so, I'd love to hear them. You could ethier post them or
e-mail them to me at onewheeler (at) mindspring.com .

So, here's a SWAG (aka hypothesis): Since the strength of tubing
increases exponentially as the diameter increases, to increase the
diameter of the tubing by 50% would cut around half the flex, thus
returning to the Hunter frame-strength? Correct? BUT, would a 50%
increase in diameter with no change in tubing thickness be more than 2x
the weight? I guess that depends on the original diameter and original
thickness. Damn.

Another problem is the brake bosses. I'd ethier have to strap them on or
machine them out of blocks of titanium. That'd suck.

One problem with titanium is that it'd be expensive, since 1" tubing is
about $25 a foot, and I'd need about three feet of it, plus filler
rod.

Would I have to engineer some reinforcement around the brake bosses if I
made the frame from titanium?

Here's some strength info I found:

A direct comparison, according to aerospacemetals.com, is that titanium
is 4.51g/cc (grams per cubic centimeter), and aluminum is 2.7 g/cc.

Cyberbellum, are these the strengh measurement tables i need to be able
to read?: http://tinyurl.com/2vw9t

http://tinyurl.com/2hcsc

The first one is unalloyed titanium, and the second one is 6061 T6
aluminum.

Here's the link for AISI 4130 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), air
cooled, 13 mm (0.5 in.) round.

http://tinyurl.com/3dzod

Finally, here's the link to the site where I got this info:

http://www.aerospacemetals.com/steelalloys.html

Thanks for the help.

--
gerblefranklin - Trials Unicyclist

Don't you think it's a cruel irony that acting like a G.I. Joe in the
army can get you a Medal, while playing with one can get you thrown
out?

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gerblefranklin said:

*Not to completely jack this thread, but I'm curious, would it be
possible to make a Hunter out of aluminum? *

hmmmm..? I'd say you have officialy done that now.

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Frame-making discussion continued 'here' (http://tinyurl.com/2llm5)

--
cyberbellum - Level 1.0 rider!

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Just before this thread dies completely after it suffered a
jacking-most-terrible 😉 Does anyone have pics of a Hunter 29"? Or any
Hunter (particularly with brakes) munis, cokers or whatever at all??

Cheers!

--
one wheeled stallion - Guerilla Unicyclist

OWS

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I don't know if Rick has even built a 29er frame yet, but there is no
question that he would do a fine job on one. Here are just a few of the
many photos out there. The gallery is apparently going through an
upgrade so many albums didn't make the search:

http://tinyurl.com/yv3gk

http://tinyurl.com/2r9cl

'Jeff Bauer's' (http://gallery.unicyclist.com/albus12)

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/albuq81

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/unipsycho/aad

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/albup30/DSC00232

http://gallery.unicyclist.com/albux49/IMG_0433

--
U-Turn - Member of Generation XO

Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.

'29er Tire Study' (http://u-turn.unicyclist.com/29erTireStudy/)

'Strongest Coker Wheel in the World'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/albup39)

'New York Unicycle Club' (http://www.newyorkunicycle.com)

-- Dave Stockton
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