apollo bottom bracket and chainset repairs

Nigel Cliffe said:

Tweak/pull the front cage so that doesn't touch and look again. This
observation is trying to establish if the middle chain ring is in line with
the middle rear sprocket *without* any of the gear shifting bits
touching/pulling anything. That will confirm that the bottom bracket is
about the right length.

Ah, I see.

This time I kept the chain free of the front cage, and I could see no
visible deflection of the chain approaching front or back sprocket.

raisethe said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

Tweak/pull the front cage so that doesn't touch and look again. This
observation is trying to establish if the middle chain ring is in
line with the middle rear sprocket *without* any of the gear
shifting bits touching/pulling anything. That will confirm that the
bottom bracket is about the right length.

Ah, I see.

This time I kept the chain free of the front cage, and I could see no
visible deflection of the chain approaching front or back sprocket.

OK, good. Bottom bracket is right length for your bike and crankset.

Your problems are now all adjustment or sticky/kinked cables. Sheldon Brown
and Park Tools websites cover adjusting gears, plus numerous bits in this
thread. Do one end at a time, with the other end in "middle gear". Then go
round again fine tuning.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Progress!

The check of the chain run on the middle sprockets shows that my new
BB and chainset appear okay. Its not surprising I couldn't find the
fault since the cause would appear to lie somewhere other than where I
was looking.

Rob Morley said:

Quoted message said:

Hang the bike up so you can rotate the crank with one hand and have a

hand free.
Put the chain on the middle ring.
Undo the clamp holding the rear mech cable and tuck the cable out of the
way somewhere.
Now 'pedal' with your right hand while pushing the rear mech inwards -
rest a couple of fingers on the chainstay, and press your thumb on the
bottom of the parallelogram (not the cage), and let it spring out again.
Does it have a full range of movemement, or does it refuse to go into
some gears or jump off the inside or outside?

It jumped off the inside. Understandable, as I had turned the
adjusting screw to its max to try and get the largest two sprockets. I
now restored the adjusting screw to a more normal position, and all of
the gears are attainable with the cable unattached, without the chain
jumping off.

Quoted message said:

If the above doesn't reveal any problems then it's a cable/lever
problem.

The cable looked very dry and a little rusty. In fact, all of the gear
and brake cables look like this. The BSO is just over a year old and
all cables have been oiled regularly, but already the full set need
replacing!

Make sure the cable is properly seated and routed, starting

Quoted message said:

with the nipple and working down to the rear mech. Screw the barrel
adjuster(s) all the way in, and clamp the cable to the mech, making sure
you get it on the correct side of the clamping arrangement and that
there's minimal slack with the chain on the smallest sprocket. Now try
running through the gears with the chain on the middle ring.

To try to get it working, I oiled the cable and reassembled it,
holding the cable with pliers as I tightened the clamp. I tried this
several times, and with several different cable tensions. The cable
either seemed too slack, in which case it wouldn't change off the
smallest sprocket, or it seemed too tight, and then I could change
gear at the lever as it was too stiff. I've replaced this cable before
without this problem, so I don't think I'm being insensitive here.

Do you think it would be best to hold fire until I get a new cable, or
does it appear that I have made a silly mistake at some point?

Nigel Cliffe said:

Quoted message said:

Just checking - you haven't had the axle out of the rear wheel ? (eg. to

clean/lube the bearings)

No, not since it was purchased.

Quoted message said:

Back to the front end; my reading of the specs is that you have a sane
Bottom Bracket for the crankset. It says 113mm for 50mm offset from centre
line. 110mm is close enough (only 1.5mm difference each side). So, if
chainset doesn't foul everything, should be OK once adjusted correctly.
Double check this with Rob Morley's recommendation of putting bike into
middle-middle gear and look at chain along its top edge. Does it look
straight and parallel to axis of bike ? Should be near enough straight
(small deviation doesn't matter).

Yes, this looks pretty good.

Quoted message said:

If the front mechanism is fouling things, it needs adjusting; possibly down
(slide down seat tube), check it is truely parallel to the bike. The
mechanism should show about 2mm clear of the outer chainring as the
mechanism swings out past the edge of the teeth. Finally adjust cable
pull.

I'll fine tune this after getting the rear gears sorted. It maybe that
I will be able to manage with slightly out of adjustment front gears
by having the handlebar index in a slightly different position. I'll
have to wait until I can test ride with working rear gears before I
can assess the extent of the problem.

I have previously tried to slide the front mech down the seat tube
(because of the reduction in teeth from 28 to 22) but without success
because it catches on the chainstay. Also, I found it impossible to
get the cage paralell to the biggest ring. These two issues may be why
I have been unable to get the changing spot on.

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

More instructions and tips:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html

Thats a really helpful link, thanks.

In article <5d424762-b800-4081-95d8-94c63c618445
@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, raisethe
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

To try to get it working, I oiled the cable and reassembled it,
holding the cable with pliers as I tightened the clamp. I tried this
several times, and with several different cable tensions. The cable
either seemed too slack, in which case it wouldn't change off the
smallest sprocket,

A bit slack is fine - you adjust the tension with the barrel adjuster on
the rear mech (and possibly on the lever too).

Quoted message said:

or it seemed too tight, and then I could change
gear at the lever as it was too stiff.

I'm guessing you mean "couldn't change gear". Undo the cable clamp at
the rear mech and unhook the rear bit of casing from the frame to give
some slack in the cable. Grab the cable where it comes out of the
casing from the lever, at the first cable stop on the frame. Maintain
tension on the cable while shifting the lever through its range in both
directions. Does it move through the full range, indexing on each
shift? If it does then the lever is working and the cable is properly
routed thus far. Put the rear casing back in its stop, grab the cable
end and repeat the exercise to make sure the cable isn't snagging
anywhere further down. Now examine the rear mech closely to see where
the locating groove or bumps are where the cable attaches to the mech.
If you don't put the cable on the correct side of the clamp bolt it
messes up the leverage. Reattach the cable so it's just slack, and take
up the slack with the barrel adjuster.
Any luck?
:-)

Rob Morley said:

Quoted message said:

or it seemed too tight, and then I could change
gear at the lever as it was too stiff.

I'm guessing you mean "couldn't change gear".

Correct. It was a typo.

Quoted message said:

Undo the cable clamp at
the rear mech and unhook the rear bit of casing from the frame to give
some slack in the cable. Grab the cable where it comes out of the
casing from the lever, at the first cable stop on the frame. Maintain
tension on the cable while shifting the lever through its range in both
directions. Does it move through the full range, indexing on each
shift?

Yes, all's well.

Quoted message said:

If it does then the lever is working and the cable is properly
routed thus far. Put the rear casing back in its stop, grab the cable
end and repeat the exercise to make sure the cable isn't snagging
anywhere further down.

Yes, its fine.

Quoted message said:

Now examine the rear mech closely to see where
the locating groove or bumps are where the cable attaches to the mech.
If you don't put the cable on the correct side of the clamp bolt it
messes up the leverage. Reattach the cable so it's just slack, and take
up the slack with the barrel adjuster.
Any luck?
:-)

Yes, I did this carefully, and it worked better than before. However,
as I tighten the cable on the adjuster it makes it harder to get the
smallest sprocket. Also, and more importantly, I just cannot get the
biggest sprocket at all. As I tighten the adjuster, it eventually gets
so stiff that the index shifter moves from gear 1 to gear 2, and when
I try to restrain it, it needs a fair bit of force and then makes
unpleasant sounds, like something is braking inside the indexing
mechanism.

Is there anything else I can try? The largest sprocket has 34 teeth.
One option would be to replace it with something for fewer teeth,
though it worked fine before.

Two other points, in case they are relevant. The cable adjuster at the
derailleur end is seized by corrosion, and secondly, I note that with
the bike hanging, when the wheel is spinning, and I'm not pedalling,
the sprockets are wobbling. Is that okay, or shouldn't they be doing
that?

Any further pointers would be gratefully received :-)

Thanks
Ray

raisethe said:

Yes, I did this carefully, and it worked better than before. However,
as I tighten the cable on the adjuster it makes it harder to get the
smallest sprocket. Also, and more importantly, I just cannot get the
biggest sprocket at all.

If you hold the gear shifter at "1" or "2", can you also tension the gear
cable by hand (by pulling away from frame). Does it then shift to smallest
sprocket ?

I'm at a bit of a loss, but suspect either drag/kink in gear cable somewhere
(most likely), or wear in either the derailleur parallelogram or the gear
shifter mechanism.

Quoted message said:

As I tighten the adjuster, it eventually gets
so stiff that the index shifter moves from gear 1 to gear 2, and when
I try to restrain it, it needs a fair bit of force and then makes
unpleasant sounds, like something is braking inside the indexing
mechanism.

Is there anything else I can try? The largest sprocket has 34 teeth.
One option would be to replace it with something for fewer teeth,
though it worked fine before.

Shouldn't make this much difference. Its not where I'd start changing
anything else.

Quoted message said:

Two other points, in case they are relevant. The cable adjuster at the
derailleur end is seized by corrosion,

Hmmm.
Think I'd try to free that if I could (or get a new rear derailleur). At a
minimum clean out the hole in the centre.
And I'd suspect the rear curved cable outer to be corroded inside as well.
Try flushing the cable with WD-40 or similar, but new bits probably
required - both cable inners and outers.

I think new cables are the most likely next thing, but prefer to get it
working with the old before spending more cash !
You may need to cut an outer cable to length (only cut if you really most!).
To cut you need either the proper cable cutting tools, or the means to grind
the outer cable to be flat and without burrs - just chopping an outer cable
with a pair of pliers is a guaranteed way to make the cable useless !
(I cut mine with a small grinding disk in an electric mini-drill ).

Quoted message said:

and secondly, I note that with
the bike hanging, when the wheel is spinning, and I'm not pedalling,
the sprockets are wobbling. Is that okay, or shouldn't they be doing
that?

Within reason, all free-wheels I've got wobble.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

In article <663f2c06-7d74-435b-8241-8691c19765a8
@c30g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, raisethe
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Yes, I did this carefully, and it worked better than before. However,
as I tighten the cable on the adjuster it makes it harder to get the
smallest sprocket.

You need to find the point where it will shift both up and down equally
well. If it doesn't there's too much drag and/or slop in the system -
hopefully we've eliminated drag already by checking the cable top to
bottom.

Quoted message said:

Also, and more importantly, I just cannot get the
biggest sprocket at all.

Check that the inner limit screw is backed off enough to allow the
derailleur to move that far when you push it over by hand - unscrew it
until it threatens to throw off the inside, then screw it back in until
the chain stops rattling.

Quoted message said:

As I tighten the adjuster, it eventually gets
so stiff that the index shifter moves from gear 1 to gear 2, and when
I try to restrain it, it needs a fair bit of force and then makes
unpleasant sounds, like something is braking inside the indexing
mechanism.

Is there anything else I can try? The largest sprocket has 34 teeth.
One option would be to replace it with something for fewer teeth,
though it worked fine before.

If your rear mech has a B-tension screw (near where the parallelogram
pivots at the top) adjust it so the top jockey wheel just clears the
largest sprocket (under normal chain tension).

Quoted message said:

Two other points, in case they are relevant. The cable adjuster at the
derailleur end is seized by corrosion,

Not in itself a problem if you have an adjuster at the lever too, but it
might indicate that the derailleur is well past its prime. Check the
cage and top pivots for sideways free play, and the jockey wheels for
worn teeth or sloppy bearings (they should slide a little from side to
side, but not tip off-axis).

Quoted message said:

and secondly, I note that with
the bike hanging, when the wheel is spinning, and I'm not pedalling,
the sprockets are wobbling. Is that okay, or shouldn't they be doing
that?

There's usually a bit of float, but it might indicate that the freehub
body isn't straight/tight where it attaches to the hub itself.

Nigel Cliffe said:

raisethe wrote:

I think new cables are the most likely next thing, but prefer to get it
working with the old before spending more cash !
You may need to cut an outer cable to length (only cut if you really most!).
To cut you need either the proper cable cutting tools, or the means to grind
the outer cable to be flat and without burrs - just chopping an outer cable
with a pair of pliers is a guaranteed way to make the cable useless !
(I cut mine with a small grinding disk in an electric mini-drill ).

I method that I picked up from somewhere (possibly this group !) is to
place the cable between the cutting jaws of reasonable pliers on a hard
surface then hit the pliers with a heavy hammer. Superglue then stops
the end from fraying as you try to install it.
Paul
--
CTC Right to Ride Rep. for Richmond upon Thames

Paul Luton said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

raisethe wrote:

I think new cables are the most likely next thing, but prefer to get
it working with the old before spending more cash !
You may need to cut an outer cable to length (only cut if you really
most!). To cut you need either the proper cable cutting tools, or
the means to grind the outer cable to be flat and without burrs -
just chopping an outer cable with a pair of pliers is a guaranteed
way to make the cable useless ! (I cut mine with a small grinding
disk in an electric mini-drill ).

I method that I picked up from somewhere (possibly this group !) is to
place the cable between the cutting jaws of reasonable pliers on a
hard surface then hit the pliers with a heavy hammer. Superglue then
stops the end from fraying as you try to install it.

That works for inners. But it just squashes an outer flat !

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I method that I picked up from somewhere (possibly this group !) is to
place the cable between the cutting jaws of reasonable pliers on a hard
surface then hit the pliers with a heavy hammer. Superglue then stops
the end from fraying as you try to install it.

If you wick some superglue into the inner before you cut it it won't
fray during cutting either.

--
Tony

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has
taken place"
George Bernard Shaw

In article said:

Paul Luton said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

I think new cables are the most likely next thing, but prefer to get
it working with the old before spending more cash !
You may need to cut an outer cable to length (only cut if you really
most!). To cut you need either the proper cable cutting tools, or
the means to grind the outer cable to be flat and without burrs -
just chopping an outer cable with a pair of pliers is a guaranteed
way to make the cable useless ! (I cut mine with a small grinding
disk in an electric mini-drill ).

I method that I picked up from somewhere (possibly this group !) is to
place the cable between the cutting jaws of reasonable pliers on a
hard surface then hit the pliers with a heavy hammer. Superglue then
stops the end from fraying as you try to install it.

That works for inners. But it just squashes an outer flat !

Put an inner inside it to stop it being squashed. (If using the inner
you want to end up using, rather than a spare piece, make sure you
have the cable only just sticking out the end you are cutting and
it sticks well out the other end.)
Whether it will let you get away with using pliers without having to
grind the end flat or otherwise poke about a bit afterwards I doubt,
but it does help cut without squashing.