Barium grease?

"mike anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking for
opinions about barium greases.
Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to the
tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease with
Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:

<http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf>

Quoted message said:

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

I have been at google but there was surprisingly little mentioned in
RBT about barium grease, just a single comment saying that it (barium
grease) was industry only - not for bikes, lol, a bad sign perhaps 😉
But yet, has the subject been investigated enough?
I have been in touch with a chemist at Petro-Canada who thought it
(barimol heavy) would be excellent for bikes.

Any help would be most appreciated, thanks
mike anderson

While the Barium grease you mention looks good, might it be 'overkill' for
such a light application as bicycle wheels? Do bike wheel bearings need a
high speed, high load grease? Not from what I've learned. Most modern wheels
that use open bearing from Campy and Shimano are pretty well protected from
water intrusion and if you re-pack the bearings at the end of each season
(summer and winter) all will be fine.

Lithium grease for bike wheel bearings has been used for what seems eons,
worked well, and is cheap. If you desire something a little heavier, regular
automotive wheel bearing grease would fill the bill, also very cheap.

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking for
opinions about barium greases.
Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to the
tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease with
Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:
<http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf>

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

I have been at google but there was surprisingly little mentioned in
RBT about barium grease, just a single comment saying that it (barium
grease) was industry only - not for bikes, lol, a bad sign perhaps 😉
But yet, has the subject been investigated enough?
I have been in touch with a chemist at Petro-Canada who thought it
(barimol heavy) would be excellent for bikes.

Any help would be most appreciated, thanks
mike anderson

mike anderson said:

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking for
opinions about barium greases.
Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to the
tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease with
Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:
<http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf>

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

I have been at google but there was surprisingly little mentioned in
RBT about barium grease, just a single comment saying that it (barium
grease) was industry only - not for bikes, lol, a bad sign perhaps 😉
But yet, has the subject been investigated enough?
I have been in touch with a chemist at Petro-Canada who thought it
(barimol heavy) would be excellent for bikes.

Any help would be most appreciated, thanks
mike anderson

I can't help on the barium grease, but let me recommend Versilube,
G322L, a silicone lubricating grease. I recently took apart some bottom
brackets on which I had used Versilube, about 1975. The grease was only
slightly darkened (it's pale yellow), and as far as I can see the cups
and balls were in good shape. I's still available -- check the web.

--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.

15 Oct 2004 15:40:13 -0400 mike anderson said:

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking for
opinions about barium greases.
Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to the
tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease with
Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:
<http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf>

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

Bicycle applications make extremely light demands on greases. Almost
anything will work for you here. I don't see anything that would
recommend a barium grease over any other grease. For more information
about greases, I just found this site:

http://www.reliability.com/articles/article66.htm

Grease is very poorly understood by the public. There's very little
about it that is magic, and spending lots of money for most specialty
greases is a total waste. The only things we need to worry about are
its tolerance to water and ability to inhibit corrosion.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

"Jim Adney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

15 Oct 2004 15:40:13 -0400 mike anderson said:

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking for
opinions about barium greases.
Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to the
tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease with
Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:

<http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf>

Quoted message said:

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

Bicycle applications make extremely light demands on greases. Almost
anything will work for you here. I don't see anything that would
recommend a barium grease over any other grease. For more information
about greases, I just found this site:

http://www.reliability.com/articles/article66.htm

Grease is very poorly understood by the public. There's very little
about it that is magic, and spending lots of money for most specialty
greases is a total waste. The only things we need to worry about are
its tolerance to water and ability to inhibit corrosion.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

A very good piece on grease. It sure makes the cheap, plentiful and very
available lithium grease look good, doesn't it?

mike anderson said:

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking for
opinions about barium greases.
Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to the
tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease with
Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:
<http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf>

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

I have been at google but there was surprisingly little mentioned in
RBT about barium grease, just a single comment saying that it (barium
grease) was industry only - not for bikes, lol, a bad sign perhaps 😉
But yet, has the subject been investigated enough?
I have been in touch with a chemist at Petro-Canada who thought it
(barimol heavy) would be excellent for bikes.

Any help would be most appreciated, thanks
mike anderson

Why bother? The green marine bearing grease always worked fine for me.
Phil Wood used to put it in a tube and sell it for extra $$$.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jim Adney said:

15 Oct 2004 15:40:13 -0400 mike anderson said:

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking for
opinions about barium greases.
Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to the
tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease with
Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:
<http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf>

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

Bicycle applications make extremely light demands on greases. Almost
anything will work for you here. I don't see anything that would
recommend a barium grease over any other grease. For more information
about greases, I just found this site:

http://www.reliability.com/articles/article66.htm

Grease is very poorly understood by the public. There's very little
about it that is magic, and spending lots of money for most specialty
greases is a total waste. The only things we need to worry about are
its tolerance to water and ability to inhibit corrosion.

Another good article on grease properties (but with a bit of
marketing thrown in) at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/GREASE/index.htm
Defines all of those mystery words on some tubes of grease like
"reversibility."
Personally, I use auto wheel bearing grease because I had a tub of it
and it seems to shed water slightly better than plain "lithium grease"
in the tubes at the hardware store.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail.net

mike anderson said:

Thank you for your input.

Bob Wheeler said:

I can't help on the barium grease, but let me recommend Versilube,
G322L, a silicone lubricating grease.

Thank you for the tip, it sound great, however, I live in Sweden and
it seems like it is not available over here.

Jim Adney said:

For more information about greases, I just found this site:

http://www.reliability.com/articles/article66.htm

Thank you, interesting article.

Threeducks said:

The green marine bearing grease always worked fine for me.

The barimol heavy is indeed suited for marine use.

I was hoping for a disscussion about barium grease, not lithium. And I
sure do not want to open the can of worms wether or not lithium
trigger galvanism between steel and aluminium and therefore you better
use anything but lithium.
I would like it to be about the pros and cons of barium grease in
general and this one (barimol heavy) in particular. I would also like
to know if Moly is wasted on bikes because the metal to metal heavy
load conditions is not that significant, or if it do have a beneficial
effect.

Thanks again
mike

i'm not a rheologist, but here's what i understand. barium greases are
fine in this application, if not necessary because bikes are not very
challenging for bearings. most of the time, moly greases are not used
unless there are really heavy loads because it's so slippery, the
bearing elements can slide, not roll and that leads to flat spots &
subsequent failure. this may arguably be good in an impact environment
like a headset, but not for much else on a bike.

regarding silicone greases, dow corning "33" silicone grease is superb &
readily available. doesn't oxidise, dry, crack, or emulsify. it also
does not rot rubber like normal hydrocarbon greases. i've got some 33
that is 20+ years old and still perfect. it does however tend to creep
very slightly, so if you have it in a head set for instance, you'll
notice having to wipe a very thin oily film off the paint periodically.

Thank you for your input.

Bob Wheeler said:

I can't help on the barium grease, but let me recommend Versilube,
G322L, a silicone lubricating grease.

Thank you for the tip, it sound great, however, I live in Sweden and
it seems like it is not available over here.

Jim Adney said:

For more information about greases, I just found this site:

http://www.reliability.com/articles/article66.htm

Thank you, interesting article.

Threeducks said:

The green marine bearing grease always worked fine for me.

The barimol heavy is indeed suited for marine use.

I was hoping for a disscussion about barium grease, not lithium. And I
sure do not want to open the can of worms wether or not lithium
trigger galvanism between steel and aluminium and therefore you better
use anything but lithium.
I would like it to be about the pros and cons of barium grease in
general and this one (barimol heavy) in particular. I would also like
to know if Moly is wasted on bikes because the metal to metal heavy
load conditions is not that significant, or if it do have a beneficial
effect.

Thanks again
mike

Dave Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am trying to find a good grease for bearings and I am looking
for opinions about barium greases.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here is a, non-lithum based, grease, Petro-Canada's: 'Barimol
Heavy' with Moly (Molybdenum Disulphide). It is an, according to
the tech data, extremely water-repellant barium soap based grease
with Moly for bearings (and more), tech data sheet PDF file:

http://www.petro-canada.com/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/pdf/im7826e0301.pdf

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It sure looks promising but is it good or bad?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bicycle applications make extremely light demands on
greases. Almost anything will work for you here. I don't see
anything that would recommend a barium grease over any other
grease. For more information about greases, I just found this site:

http://www.reliability.com/articles/article66.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Grease is very poorly understood by the public. There's very little
about it that is magic, and spending lots of money for most
specialty greases is a total waste. The only things we need to
worry about are its tolerance to water and ability to inhibit
corrosion.

I don't see a recommended type of grease in the above and that's what
most bicyclists need to know. Formerly, chassis lube available at
auto parts stores for less than 1/10 the cost of bicycle greases was
the best and most common grease. Now it's disc brake wheel bearing
grease, grease gun type lubrication having all but vanished from the
auto industry (at last).

Quoted message said:

A very good piece on grease. It sure makes the cheap, plentiful and
very available lithium grease look good, doesn't it?

If you mean "white greases" like Campagnolo or ones for automotive use,
I advise against it, because these greases readily oxidize and become
tar, literally gumming up what they are to lubricate. Just the smell
of a old polymerized white grease is sickening.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I have been at google but there was surprisingly little mentioned in
RBT about barium grease, just a single comment saying that it (barium
grease) was industry only - not for bikes, lol, a bad sign perhaps 😉
But yet, has the subject been investigated enough?
I have been in touch with a chemist at Petro-Canada who thought it
(barimol heavy) would be excellent for bikes.

You're overthinking grease. Grease, as used in bicycles, doesn't have to be
anything magical. To me, the main properties are that it doesn't harden
(like the "white" greases seem to do over time), tries to stay where it's
needed (some greases seem to just disappear after a while) and, if possible,
not be black (so you can tell when it's severely contaminated).

To date, the best stuff I've used is plain old Phil. Supposedly it's
nothing more than repackaged Chevron Marine grease and I'm sure it's a heavy
profit center for the company. But if one $6 tube of grease is going to
last you for 10 years, price isn't much of an issue. And the stuff works.
Particularly in the longevity department- I recently came across a tube that
was, literally, 20 years old. Seemed good as new, just a tiny amount of
liquefied stuff at the top.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoth Mike Jacoubowsky ...

Quoted message said:

You're overthinking grease. Grease, as used in bicycles, doesn't have to be
anything magical. To me, the main properties are that it doesn't harden
(like the "white" greases seem to do over time), tries to stay where it's
needed (some greases seem to just disappear after a while) and, if possible,
not be black (so you can tell when it's severely contaminated).

You are over-thinking me 😉 I am not looking for anything magical, I
want to learn.

Quoted message said:

To date, the best stuff I've used is plain old Phil. Supposedly it's
nothing more than repackaged Chevron Marine grease and I'm sure it's a heavy
profit center for the company. But if one $6 tube of grease is going to
last you for 10 years, price isn't much of an issue. And the stuff works.
Particularly in the longevity department- I recently came across a tube that
was, literally, 20 years old. Seemed good as new, just a tiny amount of
liquefied stuff at the top.

I am from Sweden and we do not have Phil's over here and the smartest
thing seem to be to find something as good, or just below, available
to me. I would have pay through my nose by ordering Phil's from the
states or England. I rather feed my hubs drops of oil from used oil
cans at the gas station like I used to do 🙂

Thank you for the marine grease tip,
mike anderson

Quoth jim beam ...

Quoted message said:

i'm not a rheologist, but here's what i understand. barium greases are
fine in this application, if not necessary because bikes are not very
challenging for bearings. most of the time, moly greases are not used
unless there are really heavy loads because it's so slippery, the
bearing elements can slide, not roll and that leads to flat spots &
subsequent failure. this may arguably be good in an impact environment
like a headset, but not for much else on a bike.

Very useful info! So, under certain circumstances, moly could be
harmful.

Quoted message said:

regarding silicone greases, dow corning "33" silicone grease is superb &
readily available. doesn't oxidise, dry, crack, or emulsify. it also
does not rot rubber like normal hydrocarbon greases. i've got some 33
that is 20+ years old and still perfect. it does however tend to creep
very slightly, so if you have it in a head set for instance, you'll
notice having to wipe a very thin oily film off the paint periodically.

Thank you very much for your help and the tip, I will look for it.
mike anderson

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i'm not a rheologist, but here's what i understand. barium greases are
fine in this application, if not necessary because bikes are not very
challenging for bearings. most of the time, moly greases are not used
unless there are really heavy loads because it's so slippery, the
bearing elements can slide, not roll and that leads to flat spots &
subsequent failure. this may arguably be good in an impact environment
like a headset, but not for much else on a bike.

If this is true, I'm wondering, does it even matter? After all, if the
bearing slides just as easily as if it were rolling, then there's no
practical negative effect. The bearing still provides low enough
friction. Even if the bearing had a flat spot, keeping the ball from
rotating, this type of grease would apparently compensate, since it
wasn't rotating when it was still round anyway.

someone said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not a rheologist, but here's what i understand. Barium greases
are fine in this application, if not necessary because bikes are
not very challenging for bearings. Most of the time, moly greases
are not used unless there are really heavy loads because it's so
slippery, the bearing elements can slide, not roll and that leads
to flat spots & subsequent failure. This may arguably be good in
an impact environment like a headset, but not for much else on a
bike.

Bicycle head sets are not damaged by impact.

Quoted message said:

If this is true, I'm wondering, does it even matter? After all, if
the bearing slides just as easily as if it were rolling, then
there's no practical negative effect. The bearing still provides
low enough friction. Even if the bearing had a flat spot, keeping
the ball from rotating, this type of grease would apparently
compensate, since it wasn't rotating when it was still round anyway.

All ball bearings slide in their races. Consider that elastically a
ball, whose radius is smaller than the minor radius of the race, makes
an elliptical contact patch that is essentially on a cylindrical
surface (the race). This means the central contact of the ball is
sliding rearward while the edges are sliding forward. Only a line
somewhere in between can truly roll. The analysis of these motions is
treated in "Rolling Bearing Analysis" T. Harris.

That there are greases too slippery for rolling element bearings is
ridiculous. It is only the oil in the grease that resides in the
interface of ball and race, and it does so in a few molecular layers.
In such thin films, liquids cease to operate as liquids do in bulk and
become semi rigid, their fluid characteristics being as we know them
mainly in bulk fluid.

For this reason oil remains in the interface of a steel ball pressing
against steel races even under extreme pressure. In the absence of a
separating lubricant (oil), they weld as is evident in dimpled head
bearings. The dimples are caused by fretting, motions so small that
no new lubricant enters the interface, while the lubricant film is
being penetrated. This causes welding and microscopic tear-outs that
result in the milky dimples of indexed head sets.

This effect first came to attention in damaged bearings in cars when
shipped on carriers. Differential pinion bearings and wheel bearings
develop indexed wear marks that give the typical shhhhhhh rushing
sound as BMW's often have as they pass by on the road.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote:
-snip-

Quoted message said:

grease gun type lubrication having all but vanished from the
auto industry (at last).

I'm sure this OT question will annoy someone, but what's not
to like about shooting fresh grease in the center of an
assembly until the old grease shoots out the ends?
It seems preferable to disassembly/reassembly for things
like king pins, etc. I'm missing something, I'm sure.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

...grease gun type lubrication having all but vanished from the
auto industry (at last).

Quoted message said:

I'm sure this OT question will annoy someone, but what's not to like
about shooting fresh grease in the center of an assembly until the
old grease shoots out the ends? It seems preferable to
disassembly/reassembly for things like king pins, etc. I'm missing
something, I'm sure.

What you are missing is that good grease does not get "old" and that
the reason we had lube racks and grease guns was that the joints got
full of dirt. My last car went for 150K miles and was never greased
nor valves adjusted or points replaced. It rusted through in a couple
of places but was still mechanically perfect. The car I drive now has
160K miles on it and has no grease fittings either and also needs no
replenishing of grease. The reason for this is that greased joints
need only to be sealed against dirt intrusion to remain lubricated for
life.

We don't got no steenkin king pins no more. They were replaced by
permanently greased ball joints.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

15 Oct 2004 21:27:52 -0700 'Dave Thompson said:

"Jim Adney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bicycle applications make extremely light demands on greases. Almost
anything will work for you here. I don't see anything that would
recommend a barium grease over any other grease. For more information
about greases, I just found this site:

http://www.reliability.com/articles/article66.htm

Grease is very poorly understood by the public. There's very little
about it that is magic, and spending lots of money for most specialty
greases is a total waste. The only things we need to worry about are
its tolerance to water and ability to inhibit corrosion.

Quoted message said:

A very good piece on grease. It sure makes the cheap, plentiful and very
available lithium grease look good, doesn't it?

Soaps based on calcium, sodium, & lithium are all just fine for us. I
have to admit that I had never heard of barium based greases before,
but I see no reason to avoid them, nor anything to specifically
recommend them for bicycles.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

But Jobst...

In your part of the world that may be.

However, where i live (Winnipeg, Canada) the damn temperatures cause
havoc!! I use synthetic 5W-40 oil in my vehicles. The stuff that is rated
at 200 hours rather than ordinary 5W-?? Oil.

Also, you have not seen torn and destroyed rubber boots on Cv joints after
a particularly bad winter. Torn and the CV joints are destroyed because of
the intrusion of salt and grit from our roads.

Hence the need for "zerk" fittings and "grease". There is no way to extend
the lifespan of the rubber "boots" on CV joints, nor on tie-rod ends here
on the Canadian Prairies.

BTW, I am particularly concerned with my Phil Wood hubs and a particular
trip I am planning (in a warn climate) where there are about 60+ creek
crossings and the rivers are at a depth of 70cm (or so). Sealed
bearings???? Sealed against what?? Surely not water. While they may work
fine on a gravel/sand road and on pavement, I am not convinced on their
serviceability on sand/gravel roads combined with water crossings. Perhaps
I will have to carry the empty bike and then return for the
trailer/pannier system?? Jobst, I ENVY your trips in the mountains - two
tyres on pavement, and no fording of waterways ... :-)

I think I would have been better to have the regular hubs with cones and
ball bearings - and put a "zerk" fitting into the middle of each hub and
pump in a bunch of grease AFTER each and every baptism (sorry, that means
river immersion)..

Comments SVP??

Ken
Winnipeg, Canada

P.S. Jobst, please send me a private e-mail so that I can pick your brains
for some wheel-building info...

TNX :-)
K.P.

Quoted message said:

What you are missing is that good grease does not get "old" and that
the reason we had lube racks and grease guns was that the joints got
full of dirt. My last car went for 150K miles and was never greased
nor valves adjusted or points replaced. It rusted through in a couple
of places but was still mechanically perfect. The car I drive now has
160K miles on it and has no grease fittings either and also needs no
replenishing of grease. The reason for this is that greased joints
need only to be sealed against dirt intrusion to remain lubricated for
life.