beginner racing bike

"Ron Bott" wrote...

Quoted message said:

I see quite a bit of aluminum. Back in the day the only aluminum I
remember were the Vitus frames, and the bad rap on those were that the
aluminum would fatigue over time. Obviously with changes in
construction, materials, etc. things are different today?

Things are not much different in terms of longevity, although alu frames
have expanded their influence into some of the most expensive frames you can
buy. Consider getting a used bike, maybe from e-bay or
rec.bicycles.marketplace where you can get more bike for your buck. If you
prefer new, and are price conscious you will more than likely end up with an
aluminum bike, but good steel can be had. Even titanium, from r.b.r's own
Mark Hickey: http://www.habcycles.com/road.html

Quoted message said:

Looks like more groups of componentry available. I always preferred
the Campy stuff. What would be the lowest group in the heirachy that
would be recommended for racing?

I'm partial to Campy Chorus too, although Shimano is less expensive often
more easily available. You can look over Campy components here:
http://www.campagnolo.com/newprodc.php They market CENTAUR as their
"groupset introducing the hi-end of the Campagnolo range."

Quoted message said:

Basically I'm looking for some suggestions for good entry level racing
setups. I'll be starting off in Cat 5, would like a nice, solid bike,
but it needn't be overly extravigent. I'm also about 140lbs. if that
would matter for frame slection materials.

For starters you might look at
Gunnar (esp. for good, inexpensive steel):
http://www.waterfordbikes.com/gunnar/data/index.htm

Giant: http://www.giant-bicycle.com/default_200406.asp

Raleigh: http://www.raleighusa.com/

Ron Bott said:

I would like to return to some road racing after a layoff of about 10
years. While recently looking at some equipment, I felt a bit
overwhelmed by the options, variety, as well as the prices.

Last time I started racing, it was common to grab a bike with a
Columbus SL frame and Ultegra or Chorus components. I guess the
thought was the bike would be reasonably priced, perform well, but not
be overly expensive to replace parts, etc. when the eminent crashes of
beginner racing occurred.

I have a few questions about some current bikes:

I see quite a bit of aluminum. Back in the day the only aluminum I
remember were the Vitus frames, and the bad rap on those were that the
aluminum would fatigue over time. Obviously with changes in
construction, materials, etc. things are different today?

Looks like more groups of componentry available. I always preferred
the Campy stuff. What would be the lowest group in the heirachy that
would be recommended for racing?

Basically I'm looking for some suggestions for good entry level racing
setups. I'll be starting off in Cat 5, would like a nice, solid bike,
but it needn't be overly extravigent. I'm also about 140lbs. if that
would matter for frame slection materials.

Beginner? The beginners I know use Tiagra if they're lucky!

Most basic frames are alu these days, and the fat tubes prevent the
metal fatiguing as quickly as the old Vitus ones.

I would try and get 10-speed Campag if possible, as that's what everyone
else will be using and it's filtering down to the lower groups each year.

Ron Bott said:

I would like to return to some road racing after a layoff of about 10
years. While recently looking at some equipment, I felt a bit
overwhelmed by the options, variety, as well as the prices.

Last time I started racing, it was common to grab a bike with a
Columbus SL frame and Ultegra or Chorus components. I guess the
thought was the bike would be reasonably priced, perform well, but not
be overly expensive to replace parts, etc. when the eminent crashes of
beginner racing occurred.

I have a few questions about some current bikes:

I see quite a bit of aluminum. Back in the day the only aluminum I
remember were the Vitus frames, and the bad rap on those were that the
aluminum would fatigue over time. Obviously with changes in
construction, materials, etc. things are different today?

Looks like more groups of componentry available. I always preferred
the Campy stuff. What would be the lowest group in the heirachy that
would be recommended for racing?

Basically I'm looking for some suggestions for good entry level racing
setups. I'll be starting off in Cat 5, would like a nice, solid bike,
but it needn't be overly extravigent. I'm also about 140lbs. if that
would matter for frame slection materials.

The conservative choice would still be a good steel race
frame with Campagnolo Centaur at about $1500 &up or with
Chorus at $2300 &up, custom built with handbuilt wheels and
race quality peripherals, tubs or clinchers.

Factory bikes will generally be a little less but then
you'll need to negotiate parts swaps with the dealer to get
the exact setup you desire.

Neither steel or aluminum are altogether better or worse,
there being a range of materials, techniques, designs and
quality control ( Or lack thereof) in both.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

I see quite a bit of aluminum. Back in the day the only aluminum I
remember were the Vitus frames, and the bad rap on those were that the
aluminum would fatigue over time. Obviously with changes in
construction, materials, etc. things are different today?

All aluminum frames will eventually fail. The test is how long it will
be before they fail. When a German magazine did a tes on frames a
Cannondale was one of the frames they could not break. How the frame
is built is more important than the material.

Quoted message said:

Looks like more groups of componentry available. I always preferred
the Campy stuff. What would be the lowest group in the heirachy that
would be recommended for racing?

Veloce is nice stuff.

Quoted message said:

Basically I'm looking for some suggestions for good entry level racing
setups. I'll be starting off in Cat 5, would like a nice, solid bike,
but it needn't be overly extravigent. I'm also about 140lbs. if that
would matter for frame slection materials.

I would look at an inexpensice aluminum frame that fits well. I don't see
you getting much extra with the mondo dollar aluminum frames.
-----------
Alex

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

I see quite a bit of aluminum. Back in the day the only aluminum I
remember were the Vitus frames, and the bad rap on those were that the
aluminum would fatigue over time. Obviously with changes in
construction, materials, etc. things are different today?

One more thing. I remember the Vitus frames and I never heard of any of
them having fatigue failures. I heard of many bond failues, these frames
were bonded. I owned one for more than 15k miles and I never had any problems
with the frame. I kinda wish I had kept that bike.
-------------
Alex

Campy Shampy.... I'm a DA guy, but you can get a sweet bike with
Ultegra that will treat you just fine. If you haven't ridden or
researched a Cannondale bike, I would highy recommend starting there.
Their stock alu CAD7 frames come race ready(with components choices
galore). As always, don't take my/anyone elses word for it, try a
handful of bikes (fitted properly of course) then figure it out
yourself.

Oh yeah, you might want to try saddling a Cannondale (like a
low/mid-priced R1000) first, it will save you time and money 🙂...

Take a peek below if ya feel urge...

Scottt

http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/04/cusa/model-4RR1D.html

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ron Bott said:

I would like to return to some road racing after a layoff of about 10
years. While recently looking at some equipment, I felt a bit
overwhelmed by the options, variety, as well as the prices.

Last time I started racing, it was common to grab a bike with a
Columbus SL frame and Ultegra or Chorus components. I guess the
thought was the bike would be reasonably priced, perform well, but not
be overly expensive to replace parts, etc. when the eminent crashes of
beginner racing occurred.

I have a few questions about some current bikes:

I see quite a bit of aluminum. Back in the day the only aluminum I
remember were the Vitus frames, and the bad rap on those were that the
aluminum would fatigue over time. Obviously with changes in
construction, materials, etc. things are different today?

Looks like more groups of componentry available. I always preferred
the Campy stuff. What would be the lowest group in the heirachy that
would be recommended for racing?

Basically I'm looking for some suggestions for good entry level racing
setups. I'll be starting off in Cat 5, would like a nice, solid bike,
but it needn't be overly extravigent. I'm also about 140lbs. if that
would matter for frame slection materials.

The conservative choice would still be a good steel race
frame with Campagnolo Centaur at about $1500 &up or with
Chorus at $2300 &up, custom built with handbuilt wheels and
race quality peripherals, tubs or clinchers.

Factory bikes will generally be a little less but then
you'll need to negotiate parts swaps with the dealer to get
the exact setup you desire.

Neither steel or aluminum are altogether better or worse,
there being a range of materials, techniques, designs and
quality control ( Or lack thereof) in both.

ronbott-<< I see quite a bit of aluminum. Back in the day the only aluminum I
remember were the Vitus frames, and the bad rap on those were that the
aluminum would fatigue over time. Obviously with changes in
construction, materials, etc. things are different today? >><BR><BR>

Aluminum is cheap and easy to manufacture, hence a lot of aluminum. An aluminum
frameset can work for you, a stoopid light one will not last.

ronbott-<< I always preferred
the Campy stuff. What would be the lowest group in the heirachy that
would be recommended for racing? >><BR><BR>

Any group will 'work for racing'. Gruppos won't make you faster or slower. Find
a bike shop that can make up a package for you. Like less expensive things that
may get broken in crashes, like rear ders. Spend the $ on the frameset and te
wheels. The rest is not important .

Go to a bike shop that will do a fit on you, on a fit cycle. Then pick a
frameset and then build the bike specifically the way you want it. Fit is more
important than anything. Stay away from bike shops that do the 'stand over,
ride around the paring lot' type fit.

I'd say a well fitting aluminum or steel frameset, Veloce or Mirage or a mix,
or Centaur for a wee biot less weight but identical performance. Ideally a good
wheel builder will build your wheels, not just somebody taking smething outta a
box.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Jim-<< I'm partial to Campy Chorus too, although Shimano is less expensive
often
more easily available. >><BR><BR>

Don't get the first part of this. Chorus is cheaper than 10s DA, Centaur is
certainly going to be less than 10s ultegra.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " wrote...

Quoted message said:

Don't get the first part of this. Chorus is cheaper than 10s DA, Centaur

is

Quoted message said:

certainly going to be less than 10s ultegra.

I was just thinking Record ($1689.00) to DA ($1289.00), Chorus ($1229.00) to
Ultegra ($659.00) as a top-of-the-line to top-, second-to-second comparison.
So Chorus is cheaper than DA but more expensive than Ultegra. Never mind
that in your and my opinion the Chorus is a far better groupset than the
Ultegra. Prices are from Colorado Cyclist just to use a ready online
reference. Groups are full groups with the same list of components
included.

JF

Jim-<< I was just thinking Record ($1689.00) to DA ($1289.00), Chorus
($1229.00) to
Ultegra ($659.00) as a top-of-the-line to top-, second-to-second comparison.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Here we go...ya know a Ford Crown Victoria is way less than a Mercedes 500
SEL..both top of the line.

I think ya gotta look at materials, not heirarchy. It was simplier when Chorus
was all aluminum, now with carbon, a bit tougher. BUT I compare DA 10s with
Chorus still, Centaur with ultegra. Titanium, of which there is about what a
'ti bolt kit' from SRP offered now in 2004 Record(17 'bits), makes for the
price of Record.

BTW-I doubt you will find DA 10s, WITH hubs for less than about $1600.

Must compare with hubs, as DA 10s hubs are so expensive.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jim-<< I was just thinking Record ($1689.00) to DA ($1289.00), Chorus
($1229.00) to
Ultegra ($659.00) as a top-of-the-line to top-, second-to-second

comparison.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Here we go...ya know a Ford Crown Victoria is way less than a Mercedes 500
SEL..both top of the line.

I think ya gotta look at materials, not heirarchy. It was simplier when

Chorus

Quoted message said:

was all aluminum, now with carbon, a bit tougher. BUT I compare DA 10s

with

Quoted message said:

Chorus still, Centaur with ultegra. Titanium, of which there is about what

a

Quoted message said:

'ti bolt kit' from SRP offered now in 2004 Record(17 'bits), makes for the
price of Record.

BTW-I doubt you will find DA 10s, WITH hubs for less than about $1600.

Must compare with hubs, as DA 10s hubs are so expensive.

On the other hand, at the price of $1600 for the group, with hubs, DA 10 is
*priced* to match Record 10, not Chorus or Centaur. The other thing to look
at in comparing DA 10 to Record 10 is weight. For that same $1600, DA 10 is
"lighter" than Record 10. Add in the fact that DA 10 appears to be in short
supply, real or not, plus all the fact that it is the *group to get* as all
the pros ride it - thus increasing demand, and well, you may want to believe
that DA 10 is "equivalent" to Chorus or Centaur, but the reality of price,
weight and desireability makes it closer match to Record....

Alex Rodriguez said:

All aluminum frames will eventually fail. The test is how long it will
be before they fail. When a German magazine did a tes on frames a
Cannondale was one of the frames they could not break. How the frame
is built is more important than the material.

Every time the 'Tour' (iirc) magazine article is mentioned, I feel a
need to remind everyone that they had to make certain compromises to
the testing regime - namely they were forced to use a high stress /
short time accelerated life testing approach, rather than the MUCH
more expensive and time-consuming (but more realistic) "same stress -
same time" approach.

The tour test would be appropriate if the bike were to be ridden by an
800 pound gorilla with a great sprint, though... ;-)

(suddenly it occurs to me how cool it would be to train an 800 pound
gorilla to ride a bike and put him up against Cipo in an exibition
race).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:24:16 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

All aluminum frames will eventually fail. The test is how long it will
be before they fail. When a German magazine did a tes on frames a
Cannondale was one of the frames they could not break. How the frame
is built is more important than the material.

Every time the 'Tour' (iirc) magazine article is mentioned, I feel a
need to remind everyone that they had to make certain compromises to
the testing regime - namely they were forced to use a high stress /

Careful -- surely you mean load, not stress, right?

Quoted message said:

short time accelerated life testing approach, rather than the MUCH
more expensive and time-consuming (but more realistic) "same stress -
same time" approach.

The tour test would be appropriate if the bike were to be ridden by an
800 pound gorilla with a great sprint, though... ;-)

(suddenly it occurs to me how cool it would be to train an 800 pound
gorilla to ride a bike and put him up against Cipo in an exibition
race).

Now that would be a fine sight to see! But what outfits would they
wear?!? We'd have to enforce strict regulations to ensure Cipo didn't
dress up as a gorilla or something. ;-)

Quoted message said:

I would look at an inexpensice aluminum frame that fits well. I don't see
you getting much extra with the mondo dollar aluminum frames.

Try Cervelo Team Soloist. www.cervelo.com

Mark Hickey said:

The tour test would be appropriate if the bike were to be ridden by an
800 pound gorilla with a great sprint, though... ;-)

(suddenly it occurs to me how cool it would be to train an 800 pound
gorilla to ride a bike and put him up against Cipo in an exibition
race).

Would the gorilla shave his legs?

-=Dave=-

Mark-<< namely they were forced to use a high stress /
short time accelerated life testing approach, rather than the MUCH
more expensive and time-consuming (but more realistic) "same stress -
same time" approach. >><BR><BR>
<< The tour test would be appropriate if the bike were to be ridden by an
800 pound gorilla with a great sprint, though... ;-) >><BR><BR>

well said mark. Same goes for crank/BB 'stiffness' testing as well as wind
tunnel tersting of bike parts, W/O a rider on the bike. How to 'decieve' with
numbers.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

BFD-<< On the other hand, at the price of $1600 for the group, with hubs, DA 10
is
*priced* to match Record 10, not Chorus or Centaur. >><BR><BR>

Well, also remember that mailorder does not a 'standard' make. We price DA and
Chorus very closely together, including hubs. Samo for ultegra(altho we really
can't get it now) with centaur, Veloce with 105.

BFD<< For that same $1600, DA 10 is
"lighter" than Record 10. >><BR><BR>

Not so, per the Velonews article of the groups. DA 10s and Chorus 10s are about
the same.

BFD-<< Add in the fact that DA 10 appears to be in short
supply, real or not, >><BR><BR>

You can say that again. We cannot find 10s cogsets.

BFD<< Chorus or Centaur, but the reality of price,
weight and desireability makes it closer match to Record.... >><BR><BR>

Here in the republic, we sell 20-25 Record groups PLUS 15-20 Chorus groups for
one DA 10s group. OEM, from Specialized, Giany, Trek, does not a standard make
either.

BFD-<< all the fact that it is the *group to get* as all
the pros ride it >><BR><BR>

TdF has more Campag teams than shimano PLUS, like Dean and some other bike
stuff(ksyriums), giving it away for free or 'bro' deals skews the appearance of
what actually 'sells'.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

BFD-<< On the other hand, at the price of $1600 for the group, with hubs, DA 10
is
*priced* to match Record 10, not Chorus or Centaur. >><BR><BR>

Well, also remember that mailorder does not a 'standard' make. We price DA and
Chorus very closely together, including hubs. Samo for ultegra(altho we really
can't get it now) with centaur, Veloce with 105.

My LBS sells the DA 10 group for $1600. How much do you sell your DA
10 group for? Less than $1600?

Quoted message said:

BFD<< For that same $1600, DA 10 is
"lighter" than Record 10. >><BR><BR>

Not so, per the Velonews article of the groups. DA 10s and Chorus 10s are about
the same.

Actually, according to the "official" websites, Record is the lightest
of the 3 groups mentioned. Record 10 group (no pedals or headset)
weighs in at 2671g, DA 10 group weighs 2696g and Chorus 10 group
weighs 2836. I would say its more like DA 10 and Record 10 are "about
the same"....

Quoted message said:

BFD-<< Add in the fact that DA 10 appears to be in short
supply, real or not, >><BR><BR>

You can say that again. We cannot find 10s cogsets.

BFD<< Chorus or Centaur, but the reality of price,
weight and desireability makes it closer match to Record.... >><BR><BR>

Here in the republic, we sell 20-25 Record groups PLUS 15-20 Chorus groups for
one DA 10s group. OEM, from Specialized, Giany, Trek, does not a standard make
either.

Since you appears to be selling so much more Campy 10 than DA 10, how
much are you selling these groups for?

Quoted message said:

BFD-<< all the fact that it is the *group to get* as all
the pros ride it >><BR><BR>

TdF has more Campag teams than shimano PLUS, like Dean and some other bike
stuff(ksyriums), giving it away for free or 'bro' deals skews the appearance of
what actually 'sells'.

Agree, OEM gets the best deal and can "package" a group in a
*complete* bike for way less than what you, the shops, can get it for.
That's how mail-order has survived all these years.....

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

...
Here in the republic, we sell 20-25 Record groups PLUS 15-20 Chorus groups for
one DA 10s group....

And would you not be promoting Campy over Shimano to your customers, Mr.
Chisholm? Is not this sample therefore biased?

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area