Beloki has Osteoperosis?

There was a rumor going around that Boardman was taking a bone "lightening" drug to drop weight to
climb better. A friend of mine was racing in Europe when he heard about this...seems pretty
ludicrous, but then again Hct's of over 60% and the pervasive use of insulin suggest some riders
will try anything.

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

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"Marty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"Ronald B. Wyckoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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From a physics perspective Beloki's crash was not that bad.

Watch again, it's bad: boss.streamos.com14action11 300.wvxOpen ↗

He was still moving pretty fast when he went down. Plus, his rear wheel planted which ejected
him from the bike - but not parallel to the ground,

or

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up into the air - he ejected towards the pavement at speed + acceleration

of

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the ejection caused by the planting of the rear wheel . When he hit the pavement, it looks like
he took almost all of the impact to the hip. When

I

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saw it live, I figured he'd be done with a hip injury. It was violent.

I know of a rider who broke their hip (femoral neck fracture) going all of about 8 mph - front
wheel dropped into some railroad tracks, and he was vaulted over the bars much like you describe.
He isn't some undernourished climber, either, but a former weightlifter whose bones are probably
quite dense.

People who do research on osteoporosis like to refer to a "fracture threshold"...but in fact any
bone, even a thick, healthy one, will break under sufficient force (obviously).

None of which is meant to minimize the issue of osteopenia/osteoporosis among elite cyclists,
which does occur....

Andy Coggan

"roadracer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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NEVER supplement with calcium, it only makes it worse, despite what you hear from the medical
know-it-alls.

Quack.

Andy Coggan

------------------
From Roadracer:

Andy Coggan = Total Idiot!!

ESMD is exactly right. Every athlete that understands health knows you don't supplement calcium as
calcium is a major inflammatory that can wreak your nerves, muscles, organs, and brain if you
don't have the proper neural and hormonal factors for it to properly uptake to new bone matrix
reformation. In osteoporosis you have a high imbalance between osteoblasts (builds bone) and
osteoclasts (breaks down bone) and this excess breakdown is causing excess circulatory calcium
levels. Taking calcium supplements just increases immune activation, inflammation, and increases
the degenerative disease process. Excess circulatory calcium has been medically implicated in all
major neurodegenerative diseases including ALS and early on-set Parkinson's, which current
increases in athletes is the highest every recorded in medical history.

You need to stop getting a boner watching milk commercials clown!!

I'll say it again: you're a quack.

Andy Coggan

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"roadracer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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NEVER supplement with calcium, it only makes it worse, despite what you hear from the medical
know-it-alls.

Quack.

Andy Coggan

------------------
From Roadracer:

Andy Coggan = Total Idiot!!

ESMD is exactly right. Every athlete that understands health knows you don't supplement calcium
as calcium is a major inflammatory that can wreak your nerves, muscles, organs, and brain if you
don't have the proper neural and hormonal factors for it to properly uptake to new bone matrix
reformation. In osteoporosis you have a high imbalance between osteoblasts (builds bone) and
osteoclasts (breaks down bone) and this excess breakdown is causing excess circulatory calcium
levels. Taking calcium supplements just increases immune activation, inflammation, and increases
the degenerative disease process. Excess circulatory calcium has been medically implicated in
all major neurodegenerative diseases including ALS and early on-set Parkinson's, which current
increases in athletes is the highest every recorded in medical history.

You need to stop getting a boner watching milk commercials clown!!

I'll say it again: you're a quack.

Correction: you're both quacks.

Andy Coggan

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"roadracer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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> NEVER supplement with calcium, it only makes it worse, despite what you hear from the
> medical know-it-alls.

Quack.

Andy Coggan

------------------
From Roadracer:

Andy Coggan = Total Idiot!!

ESMD is exactly right. Every athlete that understands health knows you don't supplement
calcium as calcium is a major inflammatory that can wreak your nerves, muscles, organs,
and brain if you don't have the proper neural and hormonal factors for it to properly
uptake to new

bone

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Quoted message said:

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matrix reformation. In osteoporosis you have a high imbalance between osteoblasts (builds
bone) and osteoclasts (breaks down bone) and this excess breakdown is causing excess
circulatory calcium levels. Taking calcium supplements just increases immune activation,
inflammation,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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increases the degenerative disease process. Excess circulatory calcium has been medically
implicated in all major neurodegenerative diseases including ALS and early on-set Parkinson's,
which current increases in athletes is the highest every recorded in medical history.

You need to stop getting a boner watching milk commercials clown!!

I'll say it again: you're a quack.

Correction: you're both quacks.

Andy Coggan

They are worse than that, they are dangerous quacks.

My wife has Osteoperosis, doctor prescribed Hormone Replacement Therapy and calcium.

Latest bone density test was normal.

Dashii

"Ronald B. Wyckoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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From a physics perspective Beloki's crash was not that bad. His

vertical

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fall was not that much more than 2',

Beloki's fall was probably a rotational acceleration roughly equivilent to a 8 or 10 foot fall.

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the road surface was melting Tar and was probably soft,

The melting tar is some 1/16th of an inch under which is rock and gravel. I wonder what
you sleep on.

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and he had already bled allot of his speed before launching off the

bike,

From 45 down to a meager 25 mph?

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and his deceleration on hitting the road was not that much

considering his slide afterward.

Would you care to try it sometime?

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The Femur bone is the largest bone in the body and the least likely

to break.

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Racers that are known for their climbing ability are smaller and lighter, the best climbers
probably also have the least dense bones because power/Kg is so important that 5 lbs.
difference in total

weight

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would be very sifnificant in climbing ability in the upper echelons

of

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our sport.

Lance was the best climber this year as well and he is some 6' tall and weighs in pretty hefty.

Cyclists don't have shock loadings on their bones as foot sports do and hence tend to have less
dense bones on the average.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tom Kunich

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Lance was the best climber this year as well and he is some 6' tall and weighs in pretty hefty.

Huh?

-WG

I've started to see some (mountain) bike shorts made with padding on the side to shield the hips in
a fall. A helmet for the hip, so to speak. The pads I saw were foamlike but I suppose styrofoam
would be the most weigh- and bulk-effective system. Curious -- does anyone have any experience with
these things? I'd wear the added bulk while training in the rain...--Shayana Kadidal

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Looking at my chart of the skeletal system, the Greater Trochanter is the top of the Femur that
you feel with you push on the side of your "hip." It is the attachment for several muscles but
does not have a muscle covering it on the side. Therefore, when Beloki landed almost straight down
on the side of his "hip," he apparently landed directly on the Greater Trochanter. This could have
broken the neck of the Femur (between the Greater Trochanter and the Head of the Femur (ball at
the end of the Femur in the socket of the Illium).

Best climber??? Was there some other Tour Lance was in? Because the one I saw, showed Lance barely a
shadow of his former self...except for Luz Ardiden and even then he was not as good as before.

As for Beloki, I imagine he was very unlucky and has fairly normal bones.

CH

"chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Best climber??? Was there some other Tour Lance was in? Because the one I saw, showed Lance barely
a shadow of his former self...except for Luz Ardiden and even then he was not as good as before.

I don't know if you've ever tried to ride fast with a dragging brake but if you just set your brake
up some time so that it barely touches on the high spots of your rim - just barely detectable - and
go for a ride with a good group you're going to find out how hard it is. Lance said that his brakes
were dragging on that one stage hard enough to wear out the pads. I find it amazing that he was so
close to the front under those conditions.

Moreover, even though he definitely had a bad start to the Tour and had some super hard competition
he won the race in the mountains.

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As for Beloki, I imagine he was very unlucky and has fairly normal bones.

I think that was my point. He doesn't have osteoporosis or brittle bones or anything else. He
took a bad fall and hurt himself. What would cause someone to suggest something like the title of
this thread?

Great Forum. I don't post to forums, but felt the need to add my thought here:

1. According to the WHO, the U.S. population has the highest amount of calcium in their daily diet of any developed country, yet has the highest level of osteoporosis of any developed country. Obviously, a lack of calcium intake is not the reason for osteoporosis.

2. Calcium Channel Blockers are heavily used by U.S. physicians for various heart disorders, and heavily used in reducing excess calcium excretion noted in numerous autoimmune/degenerative diseases.

3. My wife had osteoporosis and her doctor put her on HRT and calcium. Six months later she developed Lupus and one year later DEXA scan showed her osteoporosis was worse. After two year of fighting this horrible disease, we finally found a doctor who changed her HRT treatment, took her off all calcium supplements, and put her on a calcium channel blocker. Nine months later her Lupus went into remission and tested Ca2+ (reduced calcium) levels returned to normal. DEXA scans since this time have continued to show significant improvement in bone density.

4. Andy Coggan Background - "Andy Coggan is a researcher and widely respected exercise scientist. He addressed a lot of the technical and biomechanical aspects of training with power as well as the physiological responses and adaptations to endurance training. He drew mainly from his own experience using power meters over the last 10 years."

With all due respect sir, I don't see where you have any background as a medical doctor or a PhD in Human Biochemistry. Accordingly, what knowledgeable basis could you possibly have for your expressed opinions on this subject based on current published international sports medicine science. To resort to name calling people a "quack" on this forum is both unprofessional and reflects very poorly on your character.

Secondly with all due respect, endurance athletes reflect some of the most unhealthy blood chemistry and health biomarkers of all tested athletes. Not a very good source of recommendations for reversing a serious degenerative disease or returning the body to a healthy state.

5. Finally, all forum individuals should understand that Public Medicine does not treat diseases, it treats only symptoms. Further approx. 70% of current U.S. medical research is funded by pharmaceutical companies which have become increasing corrupt over the last 25 years. According to the New England Journal of Medicine, not one cure for any of the approx. 100 degenerative diseases has been discovered by the U.S. Medical Industry in over 45 years. Drug company's or doctors have zero knowledge of nutritional biochemistry or cellular human biochemistry. Accordingly, many current medical practices are fraught with serious error and are not based on sound "whole body" medical science.

6. Elite athletes have access to highly effective therapies not available to the general public or understood by Public medical doctors. Their discussion should be encouraged on forum's like this, not discouraged by a PhD and another significant forum poster calling people with good information a "quack". Just because bone is losing calcium, does not mean you turn around and supplement calcium until you stop what is causing the body to rob the bone of calcium in the first place. Don't have to be a rocket scientist or a "quack" to understand this point.

B. Simms said:

1. According to the WHO, the U.S. population has the highest amount of calcium in their daily diet
of any developed country, yet has the highest level of osteoporosis of any developed country.
Obviously, a lack of calcium intake is not the reason for osteoporosis.

I always thought lack of exercise (or more specifically, mechanically stimulating the bones) was the
main reason for osteoporosis. Of course, if no calcium is entering the body, one can stimulate
forever but no "re-calcification" will occur.

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Just because bone is losing calcium, does not mean you turn around and supplement calcium until
you stop what is causing the body to rob the bone of calcium in the first place.

With "my" reason in mind, seeing that Beloki probably gets enough exercise (although running may be
better than cycling), and seeing that he must watch his weight and may be dieting or not eating
varied, calcium supplements would be my first try too.

E.-no credentials whatsoever

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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B. Simms said:

1. According to the WHO, the U.S. population has the highest amount of calcium in their daily
diet of any developed country, yet has the highest level of osteoporosis of any developed
country. Obviously, a lack of calcium intake is not the reason for osteoporosis.

B. Simms is full of [censored].

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With "my" reason in mind, seeing that Beloki probably gets enough exercise (although running may
be better than cycling), and seeing that he must watch his weight and may be dieting or not eating
varied, calcium supplements would be my first try too.

E.-no credentials whatsoever

news.bbc.co.uk428878.stmOpen ↗

Osteoporosis affects one in three women and one in 12 men, is responsible for 200,000 breaks per
year in the UK and 40 deaths a day. It is often known as a silent illness, because many people do
not know they have it until it is too late. Although it is thought of as a disease of old age,
latest research suggests its roots lie in adolescence.

Dashii

"B. Simms" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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4. Andy Coggan Background - "Andy Coggan is a researcher and widely respected exercise scientist.
He addressed a lot of the technical and biomechanical aspects of training with power as well
as the physiological responses and adaptations to endurance training. He drew mainly from his
own experience using power meters over the last 10 years."

With all due respect sir, I don't see where you have any background as a medical doctor or a PhD
in Human Biochemistry.

I am not a physician, no. OTOH, I work and have worked with quite a few, as well as with Ph.D.s who
speciality is exercise and bone (e.g., Wendy Kohrt and Gail Dalsky). (As for the comment about
"human biochemistry", I'll put my knowledge there up against anybody's.)

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Accordingly, what knowledgeable basis could you possibly have for your expressed opinions on this
subject based on current published international sports medicine science.

It's simple: a little over 10 years ago, I had a DXA scan that revealed that my BMD was below
average (esp. in my under-developed upper body). This fall I volunteered for a study of
vegans/vegitarians, which included having another DXA. Perhaps not surprisingly, given that I'm more
than a decade older, my BMD is even lower now - in the osteopenic range, technically (note, however,
that current normative standards make no allowance for weight). Figuring it might be appropriate to
seek treatment, the first thing I did was call my friend Wendy (see above - and also PubMed under
Kohrt WM) to see what she had to say. Her response? One, make sure I was getting plenty of calcium
and vitamin D, and supplement my diet if necessary, two, consider taking one of the bisphosphonates,
and three (of course), consult a physician. So, to answer your question: in addition to doing my
best to stay abreast of the current research literature (although osteoporosis isn't my research
speciality, exercise/aging is), when I wanted more detailed information I consulted with an
internationally-recognized expert in this particular area. Where do you get *your* information?

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To resort to name calling people a "quack" on this forum is both unprofessional and reflects very
poorly on your character.

One of the defining characteristics of quackery is blanket statements that go against the
recommendations of the medical mainstream, coupled with a sense of paranoia, i.e., the implication
that not only does the medical establishment not have the answers, they don't want to know the
answer, and are suppressing "the truth". In my mind, that pretty much sums up the initial post
(which included the claim that supplemental calcium actually aggravates osteoporosis - pretty much
the exact opposite of currently accepted thinking in this area) to which I responded.

BTW: next time you want to know somebody's credentials as a scientist, you'd probably be much better
off searching the web using PubMed or the CRISP database, rather than just googling.

Andy Coggan

Well Tom, this is rec.bicycle.gossip, afterall.

What would cause someone to suggest something like the title of this

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thread?

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Secondly with all due respect, endurance athletes reflect some of the most unhealthy blood
chemistry and health biomarkers of all tested athletes. Not a very good source of recommendations
for reversing a serious degenerative disease or returning the body to a healthy state.

I can't say I agree with this statement. Health is a blanket term often misused and/or misunderstood
by too many people. Health was known as being free from disease, but more contemporary definitions
consider a more holistic view (eg, mind, body, soul). Now one could make the argument, as I have in
the past, that elite, or even highly trained athletes, are not the healthiest persons; it basically
comes down to balance and obsessive athletes tend to do too much of one thing and include practices
that are geared towards short term gains, not long-term improvement. However, the preceding
statement is not one I've commonly come across. Furthermore, the overall detriment of our society is
not people exercising too much and eating too little, IT'S THE OPPOSITE.

The U.S. could only be so lucky to have over half its population exercising like mad, instead of
being a bunch of fat asses. Sure we might need a few more knee replacements, but what would our
heart disease rates be? or Diabetes? or cancer? I'll bank on ANY endurance athlete being better
suited to daily living than ANY average American.

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5. Finally, all forum individuals should understand that Public Medicine does not treat diseases,
it treats only symptoms. Further approx. 70% of current U.S. medical research is funded by
pharmaceutical companies which have become increasing corrupt over the last 25 years.
According to the New England Journal of Medicine, not one cure for any of the approx. 100
degenerative diseases has been discovered by the U.S. Medical Industry in over 45 years. Drug
company's or doctors have zero knowledge of nutritional biochemistry or cellular human
biochemistry. Accordingly, many current medical practices are fraught with serious error and
are not based on sound "whole body" medical science.

What's your point?

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6. Elite athletes have access to highly effective therapies not available to the general public
or understood by Public medical doctors. Their discussion should be encouraged on forum's like
this, not discouraged by a PhD and another significant forum poster calling people with good
information a "quack". Just because bone is losing calcium, does not mean you turn around and
supplement calcium until you stop what is causing the body to rob the bone of calcium in the
first place. Don't have to be a rocket scientist or a "quack" to understand this point.

I think you missed the point here...

CH

I believe watching it on television completely removes your appreciation of the forces at work. I
remember the day Dale Ernhardt has his seemingly little bump into the wall at the Daytona 500. I
thought to myself "that doesn't look so bad". Obviously I was wrong.

Marty said:

"Ronald B. Wyckoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From a physics perspective Beloki's crash was not that bad.

Watch again, it's bad: boss.streamos.com14action11 300.wvxOpen ↗

He was still moving pretty fast when he went down. Plus, his rear wheel planted which ejected him
from the bike - but not parallel to the ground, or up into the air - he ejected towards the
pavement at speed + acceleration of the ejection caused by the planting of the rear wheel . When he
hit the pavement, it looks like he took almost all of the impact to the hip. When I saw it live, I
figured he'd be done with a hip injury. It was violent.

---
Kelly Beard, a.k.a. Mr. K.V.B. Liar