'Bents and Lower Abs???

NYC XYZ said:

I think I read in one of the RCN back-issues that certain 'bents
naturally provide an abdominal workout!

The Thys almost certainly provides this.
http://www.rowingbike.com/main.php?sNewLang=GB

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Yeah, I was wondering about that!

Anyone actually tried one? Looks like great fun, but how does it
handle?? Can't imagine trying to turn on the thing!

Peter Clinch said:

NYC XYZ said:

I think I read in one of the RCN back-issues that certain 'bents
naturally provide an abdominal workout!

The Thys almost certainly provides this.
http://www.rowingbike.com/main.php?sNewLang=GB

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

NYC XYZ said:

Anyone actually tried one? Looks like great fun, but how does it
handle?? Can't imagine trying to turn on the thing!

No personal experience, but since the designer has ridden one around the
Tour de France route in the wake of the official tour it looks like the
practicalities aren't too bad. Don't forget that most of a bike's
turning action comes from leaning it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

No personal experience, but since the designer has ridden one around the
Tour de France route in the wake of the official tour it looks like the
practicalities aren't too bad. Don't forget that most of a bike's
turning action comes from leaning it.

Right, but much more so with this machine, and much more often, and
probably rather harder, too...can you imagine nudging your hips or
thighs while rowing this thing, your whole torso stretching back and
forth?

I'd get one for the exercise benefits if it could also be practical
enough for urban terrain.

You know, this HPV stuff really makes me wish I lived in the
Netherlands!

NYC XYZ said:

Quoted message said:

Don't forget that most of a bike's
turning action comes from leaning it.

Quoted message said:

Right, but much more so with this machine,

No. the amount of lean needed will be irrespective of the power
transmission system, it'll be determined by the overall geometry of the
wheels (size and spacing). And the Thys isn't much different in that
respect to many SWB 'bents.

Quoted message said:

and much more often

When you want to turn the bike, again not a function of how you power
it. If you /don't/ lean a bike (any bike) into a turn at any sort of
speed you'll probably fall off: it's quite a natural thing, and means
that in practice you don't need to move the bars that much.

Quoted message said:

probably rather harder, too...can you imagine nudging your hips or
thighs while rowing this thing, your whole torso stretching back and
forth?

No "nudging of thighs" to be done to lean a bike into a turn, or that
I've ever noticed, so no need to imagine it. I think your imagination
is a bit too active for your own good sometimes, as it seems to throw up
all sorts of problems that aren't there!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

No. the amount of lean needed will be irrespective of the power
transmission system, it'll be determined by the overall geometry of the
wheels (size and spacing). And the Thys isn't much different in that
respect to many SWB 'bents.

How d'ya figure? All that forward and backward motion having no effect
on a lean??

Quoted message said:

When you want to turn the bike, again not a function of how you power
it. If you /don't/ lean a bike (any bike) into a turn at any sort of
speed you'll probably fall off: it's quite a natural thing, and means
that in practice you don't need to move the bars that much.

Oh God...are you trying to outdo Ed Dolan in "The Three O's" again?

Quoted message said:

No "nudging of thighs" to be done to lean a bike into a turn, or that
I've ever noticed, so no need to imagine it.

Most folks use lower-body to nudge their bikes on a lean. For example,
when you "ride no-hands" you're essentially using your lower-body. On
a DF, anyway. On a 'bent, I know there isn't much, if any, "body
English" that can be applied, but this Thys machine may be an
exception. Certainly any lateral motion (lean) must take into some
account all that forward and backward motion -- unless one simply
remains still in that regard while leaning, rather like how sometimes
you don't peddle turning into a curve.

Quoted message said:

I think your imagination
is a bit too active for your own good sometimes, as it seems to throw up
all sorts of problems that aren't there!

I think you're much too empirical-minded. Insights come from the
imagination, not the world out there.

NYC XYZ said:

I think I read in one of the RCN back-issues that certain 'bents
naturally provide an abdominal workout! Anyone notice?? I can't
remember which design, though for some reason I'm thinking low-racer.

No such thing as "lower abs." At least in a human body.

Quoted message said:

No such thing as "lower abs." At least in a human body.

I'm speaking colloquially. No need to get all "Gray's" on me! =)

NYC XYZ said:

How d'ya figure? All that forward and backward motion having no effect
on a lean??

Why should it? they're in different planes.

Quoted message said:

Most folks use lower-body to nudge their bikes on a lean.

They do? I just, well, *lean*. And since my upper body is free, and my
lower body is restricted by being sat on the bike and powering it, I
generally do a fair bit of the leaning upstairs, or so ISTM.

Quoted message said:

when you "ride no-hands" you're essentially using your lower-body.

The limiting case here is the unicycle, where I can /assure/ you upper
body movement plays a significant role!

Quoted message said:

exception. Certainly any lateral motion (lean) must take into some
account all that forward and backward motion

Why? If I lean down onto the bars on a DF as I'm going round a corner,
or sit more upright, that doesn't require me to consciously modify the
lean. There may well be more work to do in total, but I doubt it's of
the thinking variety, rather than just doing.

Quoted message said:

I think you're much too empirical-minded. Insights come from the
imagination, not the world out there.

But if the imagination is wrong, it isn't really an insight...
Furthermore, I haven't ridden a Thys, so I'm using my imagination to
come up with answers here. Though it appears they tie in with the
experience of folk that do ride them, since I've yet to hear any
comments on the lines of "they're very hard to steer!".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

NYC XYZ said:

I think I read in one of the RCN back-issues that certain 'bents
naturally provide an abdominal workout! Anyone notice?? I can't
remember which design, though for some reason I'm thinking low-racer.

No such thing as "lower abs." At least in a human body.

The governments of the UK and Australia, at the very least, as well as
the American Council on Exercise, say you are wrong. The lower abs
are the abdominal muscles below the navel, and although they are not a
separate group from the upper abs, some exercises are known to produce
greater motion in the lower than upper range. As a result, they are
treated as a targetable group for exercise regimes.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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On 13 Mar 2006 08:21:42 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

No personal experience, but since the designer has ridden one around the
Tour de France route in the wake of the official tour it looks like the
practicalities aren't too bad. Don't forget that most of a bike's
turning action comes from leaning it.

Right, but much more so with this machine, and much more often, and
probably rather harder, too...can you imagine nudging your hips or
thighs while rowing this thing, your whole torso stretching back and
forth?

I'd get one for the exercise benefits if it could also be practical
enough for urban terrain.

Beware of riding it in a litigious area. You'd get sued for causing
accidents by distracting people from their cell phone conversations.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Peter Clinch said:

Why should it? they're in different planes.

Um, okay...next time you lean into a curve, try doing some ab crunches
and see what happens....

Quoted message said:

They do? I just, well, *lean*. And since my upper body is free, and my
lower body is restricted by being sat on the bike and powering it, I
generally do a fair bit of the leaning upstairs, or so ISTM.

Okay, so it seems to you, fine. Just wondering how on *this* bike, the
Thys row-bike, it all might be different.

Quoted message said:

The limiting case here is the unicycle, where I can /assure/ you upper
body movement plays a significant role!

But the issue isn't upper-body versus lower-body.

Quoted message said:

Why? If I lean down onto the bars on a DF as I'm going round a corner,
or sit more upright, that doesn't require me to consciously modify the
lean. There may well be more work to do in total, but I doubt it's of
the thinking variety, rather than just doing.

You're bringing in the "thinking variety" yourself, not me. You seem
to go off on digressions and then imagine it's me that's brought them
up and had the problem!

Quoted message said:

But if the imagination is wrong, it isn't really an insight...

Non sequitor. But I'm sick of debating straw-man arguments with you,
with all due respect.

Quoted message said:

Furthermore, I haven't ridden a Thys, so I'm using my imagination to
come up with answers here. Though it appears they tie in with the
experience of folk that do ride them, since I've yet to hear any
comments on the lines of "they're very hard to steer!".

Yes...I think I'll just let you debate yourself on this, now. =)

Quoted message said:

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Right. He's talking about "Gray's Anantomy." The term "lower abs" is
colloquial, but the ab muscles are distinguished really by an
inside/outside division, since they stretch continuously from the ribs
to the pelvis....

Werehatrack said:

The governments of the UK and Australia, at the very least, as well as
the American Council on Exercise, say you are wrong. The lower abs
are the abdominal muscles below the navel, and although they are not a
separate group from the upper abs, some exercises are known to produce
greater motion in the lower than upper range. As a result, they are
treated as a targetable group for exercise regimes.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

LOL! I live in NYC -- chutzpah is required!

Werehatrack said:

Beware of riding it in a litigious area. You'd get sued for causing
accidents by distracting people from their cell phone conversations.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

The lower abs
are the abdominal muscles below the navel, and although they are not a
separate group from the upper abs, some exercises are known to produce
greater motion in the lower than upper range.

ACE is a bunch of airhead aerobics instructors, nothing more. Show us
the peer-reviewed studies. Feel-the-burn-baby annecdotes don't count.

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

The lower abs
are the abdominal muscles below the navel, and although they are not a
separate group from the upper abs, some exercises are known to produce
greater motion in the lower than upper range.

ACE is a bunch of airhead aerobics instructors, nothing more.

Ah, I see. And you're an absolute authority on everything, whose
competence and certification extends to every known field of
endeavour, giving you the absolute right to state that all terminology
must conform to your set of definitions.

And your finding concerning the the other two entities mentioned?
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Peter Clinch wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

No "nudging of thighs" to be done to lean a bike into a turn, or that
I've ever noticed, so no need to imagine it. I think your imagination
is a bit too active for your own good sometimes, as it seems to throw up
all sorts of problems that aren't there!

Throw up is right. I've never thought about this before... when your
nose runs on a regular bike, it just drips away harmlessly. Do
recumbent riders have to contend with snot streaking across their
faces?

Another observation that really has nothing to do with your post: the
website's claim that the rowbike is "full of well-considerated and new
technology" and has "superb aerodynamical qualities" makes me suspect
this whole thing is just a hoax.

-Vee

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote:

Read enough of ACE junk to know there ain't much behind the facade.

Quoted message said:

And your finding concerning the the other two entities mentioned?

Wow, the entire governments of two countries have ruled there is such a
thing as lower abs! Amazing. Or perhaps you could offer specific
citations of which agencies and which reports they've issued based on
what science.

Show us the peer-reviewed studies backing up your claim that lower abs
can be specifically targeted and trained apart from the upper abs. In
particular how riding a bike in any configuration attains this.

"Vee" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Another observation that really has nothing to do with your post: the
website's claim that the rowbike is "full of well-considerated and new
technology" and has "superb aerodynamical qualities" makes me suspect
this whole thing is just a hoax.

I don't know the particular "row bike" previously mentioned,
but I do know someone who owns a Rowbike brand one
(http://www.rowbike.com/). As far as I know, Rowbike does not claim
"superb aerodynamically qualities". In fact, they do admit/claim
their bike:

- Burns approximately 50% more calories than ordinary biking
- Provides nearly twice the cardiovascular benefits as ordinary biking

It definitely has a learning curve associated with it. I saw the
owner ride it and two other people try it. I declined to try it... %^P

Jon Meinecke