Best All-Time RBR Posts/Threads?

Quoted message said:

Amen for Italian steel frames, and I think it really says something about
where the world is headed when people are running out to buy fragile,
stupid
light, carbon and Ti [censored] while they are 10lbs overweight, and way too
undetrained to need it. How about adding a few lbs on the bike for
reliabilty,
durability, and beauty, and losing a few off the gut.
I know why pros buy that stuff but one they aren't paying to replace [censored]
that
breaks, and in their case it may actually matter. For the rest of us it's
pretty stupid, but good for the LBS, so keep buying.
Bill C

Bill: There's nothing wrong with building a frame out of aluminum and, by
and large, you can build a stronger frame, at a bit lower weight, than you
could out of steel. But the personalization is lacking. The evidence of
handcraftsmanship isn't obvious. It might be there (I've spoken at length
with manufacturers, who insist that there is a great deal of work that goes
into making a quality hand-built aluminum frame), but it doesn't show.

As for losing the gut, absolutely, that's the best way to get faster. I'm
48, 6', back down to 173lbs, and *much* stronger than I was at 190lbs. But
my best racing was at 154lbs (and 30 years ago). So should I just give up
and consider that I'm not worthy of a nice bike?

As for Pros, most don't have to buy their equipment anyway, and the
equipment that they're given either wouldn't be given to them or wouldn't be
as nice if not for the huge numbers of recreational riders (even the Freds)
who support the system by actually paying good money for product they could
live without.

Failing equipment is a different matter. There's plenty of high-quality
stuff out there that holds up nicely. Is there a point to buying a 2lb
aluminum frame that's only guarantee is that it *will* fail given a couple
years of use? To me, that's dumb. Even dangerous. But that represents a
very small fringe part of the marketplace.

Regarding what's "good for the LBS", I'd suggest that there's nothing more
important than getting people out on bikes. That's far more important than
trying to milk a fringe set of customers for ultra-high-end parts. Besides,
once somebody gets into 2lb frames etc., you've probably lost them to
mail-order anyway. At that point they think they're smarter than their LBS,
because they can find all this cool stuff and don't understand that the LBS
isn't carrying it because it isn't something they can stand behind.

And no, I don't feel guilty about riding a TREK 5900 (instead of, say, a
$1200 basic road bike). Should I?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

From: "Mike Jacoubowsky" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Bill: There's nothing wrong with building a frame out of aluminum and, by
and large, you can build a stronger frame, at a bit lower weight, than you
could out of steel. But the personalization is lacking. The evidence of
handcraftsmanship isn't obvious. It might be there (I've spoken at length
with manufacturers, who insist that there is a great deal of work that goes
into making a quality hand-built aluminum frame), but it doesn't show.

I really hate the "exposed" welds, and I don't like how stiff an aluminum
frame seems to have to be to be really strong.
I've got a couple of aluminum hybrids we use to run errands and they aren't
bad at all due to the wide soft tires. Just like a hardtail chopper on bias
plies. If I was a lot smaller I probably wouldn't mind.
I've got one of the last Italian Benottos that I've spent a lot of time and
love keeping up and updating without having to tweak the frame or go to STI, a
Masi 3v, and an old team Fuji w/biopace and they all ride nicely if
differently. The Benotto is realxed and great for lots of miles. It's still my
favorite. The Masi is the newest and best for both road and crit races. The
Fuji is my winter bike and is a bit too small and just seems really twitchy.

Quoted message said:

So should I just give up
and consider that I'm not worthy of a nice bike?

I just see so many Master types especially show up and they're 20lbs
overweight and worried about titanium chainring bolts to lose a few grams. It
just makes me shake my head.
I got out of the Harley-Davidson gig because I just got tired of dealing with
exactly the same people who were even worse because they were spending 10X more
on those.
I'm an old school, retrogrouch, grunt. I admire the skill and research that
goes into building all the niche stuff, but I love the K.I.S.S. stuff that will
work everywhere, almost always. But that's just me.

Quoted message said:

Failing equipment is a different matter. There's plenty of high-quality
stuff out there that holds up nicely. Is there a point to buying a 2lb
aluminum frame that's only guarantee is that it *will* fail given a couple
years of use? To me, that's dumb. Even dangerous. But that represents a
very small fringe part of the marketplace.

My impression was that a lot of the 10speed cogsets and chains were basically
disposable, and it might just be me, but I thought I saw more broken chains
this year than ever. I get ridiculous years of use out of my stuff. I bought
the Benotto out of the back room of a shop after it had sat there for years
back about 1980. I got 8 years out of my first '72 F-250 before something too
expensive to fix let go. I picked up another one and have finally tweaked and
swapped almost everything over to set up another 8-10 years from this one.
Like I said I "might" have a bad attitude towards those people who buy stupid
[censored] because they can. My H-D dealership catered to them and was/is wildly
successful.

Quoted message said:

Regarding what's "good for the LBS", I'd suggest that there's nothing more
important than getting people out on bikes. That's far more important than
trying to milk a fringe set of customers for ultra-high-end parts. Besides,
once somebody gets into 2lb frames etc., you've probably lost them to
mail-order anyway. At that point they think they're smarter than their LBS,
because they can find all this cool stuff and don't understand that the LBS
isn't carrying it because it isn't something they can stand behind.

I see your point on this as long as you can keep them from buying Wally-World
[censored] that was put together by a stoned teenager. The LBSs I've dealt with have
been really good for the most part, or I didn't deal with them. >And no, I
don't feel guilty about riding a TREK 5900 (instead of, say, a

Quoted message said:

$1200 basic road bike). Should I?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

If that's what makes you happy, go for it, but do you really think that a 5900
or things like are the most durable, reliable, cost effective choice out there
for the average Fred?
Bill C

Quoted message said:

If that's what makes you happy, go for it, but do you really think that a
5900
or things like are the most durable, reliable, cost effective choice out
there
for the average Fred?
Bill C

Absolutely not. But why should a bike be subject to different
considerations than anything else one might buy? Why do people need cars
that are capable of speeds and performance far beyond what they'll actually
do? Why buy a fancier stereo or TV than absolutely required, or, for that
matter, remodel a kitchen at great expense when the reality is that it
really won't change how you use it?

It's not just about utility, and the fact that it isn't makes it no
different from most other things. We routinely buy better stuff than we
actually require, for a variety of reasons.

The problem is when the "average Fred" thinks that, by buying some high-end
bike, he/she's going to be magically transformed. Maybe in their mind? But
even if it's only in their head, I dunno, it still seems like a better place
to sink their money than a fancy car (in my totally-biased way of looking at
things, of course!).

But I guess I still have to determine if I'm an "average Fred." No question
I could fit into the category (if the jersey was big enough) of a "Masters
Fattie." But only if I decided to race again. Look what happened last time
I did that-

www.ChainReaction.com/crazy.htm

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "Mike Jacoubowsky" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Bill: There's nothing wrong with building a frame out of aluminum and, by
and large, you can build a stronger frame, at a bit lower weight, than you
could out of steel. But the personalization is lacking. The evidence of
handcraftsmanship isn't obvious. It might be there (I've spoken at length
with manufacturers, who insist that there is a great deal of work that
goes
into making a quality hand-built aluminum frame), but it doesn't show.

I really hate the "exposed" welds, and I don't like how stiff an aluminum
frame seems to have to be to be really strong.
I've got a couple of aluminum hybrids we use to run errands and they
aren't
bad at all due to the wide soft tires. Just like a hardtail chopper on
bias
plies. If I was a lot smaller I probably wouldn't mind.
I've got one of the last Italian Benottos that I've spent a lot of time
and
love keeping up and updating without having to tweak the frame or go to
STI, a
Masi 3v, and an old team Fuji w/biopace and they all ride nicely if
differently. The Benotto is realxed and great for lots of miles. It's
still my
favorite. The Masi is the newest and best for both road and crit races.
The
Fuji is my winter bike and is a bit too small and just seems really
twitchy.

Quoted message said:

So should I just give up
and consider that I'm not worthy of a nice bike?

I just see so many Master types especially show up and they're 20lbs
overweight and worried about titanium chainring bolts to lose a few grams.
It
just makes me shake my head.
I got out of the Harley-Davidson gig because I just got tired of dealing
with
exactly the same people who were even worse because they were spending 10X
more
on those.
I'm an old school, retrogrouch, grunt. I admire the skill and research
that
goes into building all the niche stuff, but I love the K.I.S.S. stuff that
will
work everywhere, almost always. But that's just me.

Quoted message said:

Failing equipment is a different matter. There's plenty of high-quality
stuff out there that holds up nicely. Is there a point to buying a 2lb
aluminum frame that's only guarantee is that it *will* fail given a couple
years of use? To me, that's dumb. Even dangerous. But that represents a
very small fringe part of the marketplace.

My impression was that a lot of the 10speed cogsets and chains were
basically
disposable, and it might just be me, but I thought I saw more broken
chains
this year than ever. I get ridiculous years of use out of my stuff. I
bought
the Benotto out of the back room of a shop after it had sat there for
years
back about 1980. I got 8 years out of my first '72 F-250 before something
too
expensive to fix let go. I picked up another one and have finally tweaked
and
swapped almost everything over to set up another 8-10 years from this one.
Like I said I "might" have a bad attitude towards those people who buy
stupid
[censored] because they can. My H-D dealership catered to them and was/is wildly
successful.

Quoted message said:

Regarding what's "good for the LBS", I'd suggest that there's nothing more
important than getting people out on bikes. That's far more important
than
trying to milk a fringe set of customers for ultra-high-end parts.
Besides,
once somebody gets into 2lb frames etc., you've probably lost them to
mail-order anyway. At that point they think they're smarter than their
LBS,
because they can find all this cool stuff and don't understand that the
LBS
isn't carrying it because it isn't something they can stand behind.

I see your point on this as long as you can keep them from buying
Wally-World
[censored] that was put together by a stoned teenager. The LBSs I've dealt with
have
been really good for the most part, or I didn't deal with them. >And no, I
don't feel guilty about riding a TREK 5900 (instead of, say, a

Quoted message said:

$1200 basic road bike). Should I?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

If that's what makes you happy, go for it, but do you really think that a
5900
or things like are the most durable, reliable, cost effective choice out
there
for the average Fred?
Bill C

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

As for Pros, most don't have to buy their equipment anyway, and the
equipment that they're given either wouldn't be given to them or wouldn't be
as nice if not for the huge numbers of recreational riders (even the Freds)
who support the system by actually paying good money for product they could
live without.

Failing equipment is a different matter. There's plenty of high-quality
stuff out there that holds up nicely. Is there a point to buying a 2lb
aluminum frame that's only guarantee is that it *will* fail given a couple
years of use? To me, that's dumb. Even dangerous. But that represents a
very small fringe part of the marketplace.

Hmmm, are you taunting Justin Lewis, Mike?

Quoted message said:

Regarding what's "good for the LBS", I'd suggest that there's nothing more
important than getting people out on bikes. That's far more important than
trying to milk a fringe set of customers for ultra-high-end parts. Besides,
once somebody gets into 2lb frames etc., you've probably lost them to
mail-order anyway. At that point they think they're smarter than their LBS,
because they can find all this cool stuff and don't understand that the LBS
isn't carrying it because it isn't something they can stand behind.

I think you're probably right about that for most high-end customers.
When I need some parts, I usually go up to the Bike Nook in SF, even though
I *know* I'll probably pay a bit mre. But he's got a lot of the stuff I
want in stock, and it's worth it to me to support a guy who pretty much
caters to roadies.

--
tanx,
Howard

A billion + 2 followups...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

So what do you guys think of 10-cog clusters?

(...While we're on the topic of off-topic BS.)

--JP

Quoted message said:

So what do you guys think of 10-cog clusters?

I'm waiting until the next "improvement" comes along, and some bonehead asks
me that question and I can tell him with a straight face "You don't
understand. This one goes to 11."

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If that's what makes you happy, go for it, but do you really think that a
5900
or things like are the most durable, reliable, cost effective choice out
there
for the average Fred?
Bill C

Absolutely not. But why should a bike be subject to different
considerations than anything else one might buy? Why do people need cars
that are capable of speeds and performance far beyond what they'll actually
do? Why buy a fancier stereo or TV than absolutely required, or, for that
matter, remodel a kitchen at great expense when the reality is that it
really won't change how you use it?

EXACTLY.

1. I am nearly always 7.7 kg overweight. Proof is at this photo from
just 3 daze ago:
http://www.kenpapai.com/images/ken6805.jpg
However if you look closely it's a typical Treck OCLV frame with
mostly 2003 Dura-Ace components and 2000-era Spinergy wheels.
If it were anything worse I WOULDN'T RIDE THE DAMN THING!

2. I know several people (1st cousins) who have remodeled their
kitchens with some really high-end fancy stuff. They barely cook!
It's mostly for show. At least the vodka stays damn cold.

3. TV sets... same thing

4. Home Computers, usually the same thing except for geeks like me who
will use the whole thing and wish tyhey had 2GB RAM rather than just
1GB.

5. Wine -- most people are too cheap for the good stuff and couldn't
appreciate it anyway.

6. Cars - I couldn't agree more. I think more Freds drive cars than
ride bikes (percent-wise at least). I am surprised people are not
"cheap" when it comes to cars as they are to audio equipment.

-Ken

Quoted message said:

It's not just about utility, and the fact that it isn't makes it no
different from most other things. We routinely buy better stuff than we
actually require, for a variety of reasons.

The problem is when the "average Fred" thinks that, by buying some high-end
bike, he/she's going to be magically transformed. Maybe in their mind? But
even if it's only in their head, I dunno, it still seems like a better place
to sink their money than a fancy car (in my totally-biased way of looking at
things, of course!).

But I guess I still have to determine if I'm an "average Fred." No question
I could fit into the category (if the jersey was big enough) of a "Masters
Fattie." But only if I decided to race again. Look what happened last time
I did that-

www.ChainReaction.com/crazy.htm

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: "Mike Jacoubowsky" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill: There's nothing wrong with building a frame out of aluminum and, by
and large, you can build a stronger frame, at a bit lower weight, than you
could out of steel. But the personalization is lacking. The evidence of
handcraftsmanship isn't obvious. It might be there (I've spoken at length
with manufacturers, who insist that there is a great deal of work that
goes
into making a quality hand-built aluminum frame), but it doesn't show.

I really hate the "exposed" welds, and I don't like how stiff an aluminum
frame seems to have to be to be really strong.
I've got a couple of aluminum hybrids we use to run errands and they
aren't
bad at all due to the wide soft tires. Just like a hardtail chopper on
bias
plies. If I was a lot smaller I probably wouldn't mind.
I've got one of the last Italian Benottos that I've spent a lot of time
and
love keeping up and updating without having to tweak the frame or go to
STI, a
Masi 3v, and an old team Fuji w/biopace and they all ride nicely if
differently. The Benotto is realxed and great for lots of miles. It's
still my
favorite. The Masi is the newest and best for both road and crit races.
The
Fuji is my winter bike and is a bit too small and just seems really
twitchy.

Quoted message said:

So should I just give up
and consider that I'm not worthy of a nice bike?

I just see so many Master types especially show up and they're 20lbs
overweight and worried about titanium chainring bolts to lose a few grams.
It
just makes me shake my head.
I got out of the Harley-Davidson gig because I just got tired of dealing
with
exactly the same people who were even worse because they were spending 10X
more
on those.
I'm an old school, retrogrouch, grunt. I admire the skill and research
that
goes into building all the niche stuff, but I love the K.I.S.S. stuff that
will
work everywhere, almost always. But that's just me.

Quoted message said:

Failing equipment is a different matter. There's plenty of high-quality
stuff out there that holds up nicely. Is there a point to buying a 2lb
aluminum frame that's only guarantee is that it *will* fail given a couple
years of use? To me, that's dumb. Even dangerous. But that represents a
very small fringe part of the marketplace.

-Ken

"Papai Digital" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

6. Cars - I couldn't agree more. I think more Freds drive cars than
ride bikes (percent-wise at least). I am surprised people are not
"cheap" when it comes to cars as they are to audio equipment.

That's economics. I've heard people say, " I can't afford to buy the 'best'
car in the world but I can buy the 'best' bike in the world.

Me, I go fast on a steel frame (REX) with Sugino parts and a Zipp disk that
cost me $250.

-WG

Warren said:

"Papai Digital" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

6. Cars - I couldn't agree more. I think more Freds drive cars than
ride bikes (percent-wise at least). I am surprised people are not
"cheap" when it comes to cars as they are to audio equipment.

That's economics. I've heard people say, " I can't afford to buy the 'best'
car in the world but I can buy the 'best' bike in the world.

One can buy 15 "best bikes" for 1 "best car." These are nothing but individual
value judgements constrained by budgets. Some folks value [censored] highly and are
willing to pay for them, fake or not fake.

Quoted message said:

Me, I go fast on a steel frame (REX) with Sugino parts and a Zipp disk that
cost me $250.

Only one bike? You are impoverished.

If you elect me to public office, I will make sure everyone has the best bike in
the world, and if they crash, the best health care. It is only fair.

Quoted message said:

One can buy 15 "best bikes" for 1 "best car." These are nothing but
individual
value judgements constrained by budgets. Some folks value [censored] highly
and are
willing to pay for them, fake or not fake.

I'll never be able to afford one of the best cars in the world, nor would I
particularly want to. But there is an attraction to the idea that one
*can*, if one values it, make a large or small sacrifice (depending upon
financial situation) and arguably buy one of the best bikes made.

Of course, as a bike shop owner, I can't even afford the only car I ever
have thought pretty cool- a MiniCooper S. I should probably add that, if I
didn't take trips to France each year in July, I probably could afford the
car... but I do place a much higher value on my Trek 5900 anyway.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com