best grand tour domestique ever?

[wolfix]

Granted, Greg knew and struggled with the reality that he had the talent to ride away from Bernie, but he didn't; he held back; and he did his job. It is more difficult to contain greatness, and it takes a great man to do it. Greg is that man.

And Greg was not just a one race domestique. The question is targeted to grand tour domestiques, so I daren't bring up his rides for Duclos-LaSalle in Paris-Roubaix. But, Gilbert doesn't forget, you can be sure.

With regards to Roche and his faithful domestiques who never rode against him; does the name Visentini mean anything to you?

I wrote earlier in the thread......

The sport has changed so much over the past ..... it changed about Indurain's time...

1987 Pre-Indurain, I would have to suggest Eddy Schepers, with the help of Robert Millar and Phil Anderson........
Eddy Schepers was a team mate of Stephen Roche the year Roche won the triple crown. Roche had the greatest year of any cyclist of modern times. Armstrong, Indurain, and Ullrich were never to have a year that compared with Roche's 1997. But what makes Eddy Schepers a great dominstique was that Roche had his team working against him in the Giro... Schepers, along with Roches old ACBB teammates of Millar and Anderson helped Roche win the Giro. Roche's team was italian and they rode against him. Roche had to attack his own teammate that was wearing the pink jersey, Italian favorite Visentini winner of the 1986 Giro.

Modern times would have to be George Hincapie...... Simply put, he rode into Paris 7 times along side the victor. And that has never been done before.

You made my point for me......The criteria for this thread is as follows....

criteria:

1) must have been a domestique for entire career.
2) the only reason the domestique could go for a gc standing was because the team leader could for some reason not fulfill that role

my vote goes to sean yates but my knowledge is limited to 1986 and after.

discuss!

Greg was far more then a domestique. The history of cycling points out the absolute difference between a domestique qnd a team leader. Greg was a team leader here in the states and in Europe.

 

[derby]

I guess I only read the title.

Well, just the same, No domestique ever had to sacrifice as much, and Greg was the best at whatever he did, so his work was still the best.

No mention of the loyal Visentini I see.

If it can't be Greg, then it must be Joseph Bruyère.

 

[wolfix]

I guess I only read the title.

Well, just the same, No domestique had to sacrifice as much, and Greg was the best at whatever he did, so his work was still the best.

No mention of the loyal Visentini I see.

Actually, I can think of many things outside cycling Greg is not good at.
He should never be allowed to have a gun while duck hunting, he should never drive a Mercedes in the snow, and he should never invest in the resturant business. But he can ride a bike.

But again, you state you see no mention of the "loyal Visentini." You still haven't read the title of the thread correctly.
It states............"best grand tour domestique ever?" That is why I nominated Eddy Schepers. A singular domestique. I didn't state Roche has the best "domestiques." That would be plural.

 

[derby]

Lemond was never a team player in his career. ... Roche was a triple champion.His domestique(s) helped him, they didn't race against him.

I think this is what you said, allthough your attempts at revision are, whatever. Visentini sabotaged Roche, his team leader, in a grand tour(do you even know which one in what year?), although I suspect few here are even aware of it.

And you also said Lemond was never a team player in his career. That includes all races, which would include P-R, where he rode for and supported Gilbert Duclos-Lasalle in his great victories. Of course, with your statement, you also exclude his support for Hinault. Please, if you don't know the history of the sport, don't make it up to suit your obvious prejudices against Greg.

 

[vitamin s]

I think this is what you said, allthough your attempts at revision are, whatever. Visentini sabotaged Roche, his team leader, in a grand tour(do you even know which one in what year?), although I suspect few here are even aware of it.

And you also said Lemond was never a team player in his career. That includes all races, which would include P-R, where he rode for and supported Gilbert Duclos-Lasalle in his great victories. Of course, with your statement, you also exclude his support for Hinault. Please, if you don't know the history of the sport, don't make it up to suit your obvious prejudices against Greg.

i believe it was the other way around. roche was supposed to ride for vinsentini since vinsentini was the defending champion and wearing the pink jersey when roche attacked. am i wrong on this?

 

[wolfix]

I think this is what you said, allthough your attempts at revision are, whatever.

You need to read what the thread topic is......There is no revision here of any sort.

And you also said Lemond was never a team player in his career. That includes all races, which would include P-R, where he rode for and supported Gilbert Duclos-Lasalle in his great victories.

Above my computer desk is a picture of GDL taking Ballerini at the line in the velodrome for a win in the 93 PR... A riding partner of mine was there and took the picture. I am real familiar with the GDL victories.

Of course, with your statement, you also exclude his support for Hinault. Please, if you don't know the history of the sport, don't make it up to suit your obvious prejudices against Greg.

Again, you need to read the topic title and the criteria for the subject here. And if you know the sport's history as well as you claim, you know Greg was never considered a domestique. He was either a rider being prepared for being a team leader, or he was riding the race preparing himself for an upcoming race. Just because you ride for another rider in a race, that does not make you a domestique. I am willing to bet Greg never once dropped back and got water for Hinault or any other rider....... That's what domestiques do.
And as far as his riding for Hinault, it seems to me he attacked Hinault, and was told to pull back. Domestiques do not do that.

 

[wolfix]

i believe it was the other way around. roche was supposed to ride for vinsentini since vinsentini was the defending champion and wearing the pink jersey when roche attacked. am i wrong on this?

You are right about Vinsentini being in pink and the former champ. but I think it was rather confusing as to who was supposed to be the team leader. I believe the Italian members of the team turned on Roche.

They wanted an Italian winner. This occurred shortly after the emergence of great English speaking riders such as Kelly, Roche, Millar, and Lemond. Previous to this , most GT's were pretty much showcases for national riders. Of course many great riders could win outside their regions,but it was far more difficult to do so.
English speeaking riders were a controversial bunch. There was much controversy when Peter Post took on English speaking Ti-Raleigh as a sponsor, then filled the team with Dutchmen and others... Of course this was all forgotten when they dominated the sport for a period of time. Victories have a way to put differences aside.

 

[Bro Deal]

Again, you need to read the topic title and the criteria for the subject here. And if you know the sport's history as well as you claim, you know Greg was never considered a domestique. He was either a rider being prepared for being a team leader, or he was riding the race preparing himself for an upcoming race. Just because you ride for another rider in a race, that does not make you a domestique. I am willing to bet Greg never once dropped back and got water for Hinault or any other rider....... That's what domestiques do.

Have to agree with this. Lemond was always a pampered rider from the minute he got over to europe. Calling him a domestique is farsical.

 

[derby]

Visentini was a good rider, but no Roche. At his best, he could be compared to a Kloden or similar high level domestique, capable of winning some races, and if thrown into the perfect situation, win a Grand Tour, although no one would ever suggest he could have grasped the ring of the Tour de France. Because Roche was injured, Visentini was given an opportunity to lead the Carrera squad and won the Giro in 1986. When Roche came back in 1987, he was the obvious class of the team. And he showed it by winning the Giro, the Tour, and the World Championships, a feat never equaled before or since.

I understand Lemond's struggle to support Hinault, and I understand Visentini's struggle to support Roche, even though that was his job. He was the winner of the previous Giro, and an Italian with a strong sense of entitlement. Notwithstanding the obvious differences in talent, the difference between Visentini and Lemond when they were asked to ride as domestiques was Lemond supported his team leader, albeit reluctantly, while Visentini engaged in an outright mutiny against Roche, taking most of the team with him, leaving Roche with the help of the afore mentioned Schepers and of riders on other teams like Millar.

Visentini's situation then was not so unlike Leipheimer's today. He had consistent solid performances in the Giro, a 9th, 6th, 2nd, and, in Roche's absence, a 1st, but as Leipheimer is dealing with the introduction of Basso to Discovery, Visentini had to deal with the introduction of Roche to Carrera. Unfortunately, he didn't deal with it well.

Lemond repaid his domestiques in the traditional way, by riding for them in the classics and smaller races. The idea that he wasn't ever a team rider in his career is complete balderdash, revisionist history, obvious bias, and reflects a lack of knowledge of the career of one of America's greatest riders.

 

[derby]

You need to read what the thread topic is......There is no revision here of any sort....I am real familiar with the GDL victories.... it seems to me he attacked Hinault, and was told to pull back. Domestiques do not do that.

When you say things like "Lemond was never a team player in his career", it certainly doesn't reflect a broad knowledge of Lemond's career or even a superficial awareness of his role in supporting Duclos-LaSalle in P-R, even if you do have some photos in your bedroom of the race. . And, LOL, Lemond didn't attack Hinault. Lemond was able to respond to other riders attacking when Hinault was unable to and was called back to support Hinault, WHICH HE DID , something good domestiques do. You seem to have an obvious bias against Lemond that allows you do deliberately distort history. That is not a good reflection on your character.

 

[Tubbs]

Great domestiques :

Gerard Rue - domestique to Miguel Indurain must be a contender.

Sean Yates - a great domestique.

Udo Bolts - worked tirelessly for Ullrich/Riiss.

Hernan Diaz Zabela - superdomestique at ONCE for Zulle and Jalabert.

Jos Huysman and Roger Swerts - domestiques to the Cannibal.

Can't disagree with you on any of these. I'd like to add Eric Boyer for Team Z and perhaps Raul Alcala who rode with Sean Yates in support of Hampsten all those years.

I'd also mention Axel Merckx in that he has been a workhorse not unlike Udo Bolts.

 

[limerickman]

Can't disagree with you on any of these. I'd like to add Eric Boyer for Team Z and perhaps Raul Alcala who rode with Sean Yates in support of Hampsten all those years.

I'd also mention Axel Merckx in that he has been a workhorse not unlike Udo Bolts.

Raul Alcala's a great call - I'd forgotten just how good a rider Alacala was.

Eric Boyer too - he was a tough rider.

Axel Merckx, I would agree to a lesser extent - I never pictured him as a domestique in his early career - more in his latter career.

 

[wolfix]

Raul Alcala's a great call - I'd forgotten just how good a rider Alacala was.

Eric Boyer too - he was a tough rider.

Axel Merckx, I would agree to a lesser extent - I never pictured him as a domestique in his early career - more in his latter career.

I was around Raul Alcala a few times at the Coors Classic. He truly is a nice guy. And that cannot be said about too many cyclists that rode at his level. He had a very smooth pedaling action when climbing. Does anyone know what has become of him.???

 

[whiteboytrash]

I was around Raul Alcala a few times at the Coors Classic. He truly is a nice guy. And that cannot be said about too many cyclists that rode at his level. He had a very smooth pedaling action when climbing. Does anyone know what has become of him.???

Raul Alcala is currently living in his hometown of Monterrey, Mexico. He is a successful businessman and actively involved in the community. He still rides three times a week and works as a commentator for both the Mexican and Spanish media for cycling events such as the Tour or the Olympics.

.....he also runs cocaine between the borders on his bike dressed as Krusty the clown.

 

[Tubbs]

Raul Alcala's a great call - I'd forgotten just how good a rider Alacala was.

Eric Boyer too - he was a tough rider.

Axel Merckx, I would agree to a lesser extent - I never pictured him as a domestique in his early career - more in his latter career.

correct. Axel Merckx assumed the role later in his career. Consider though the name that he was supposed to live up to. Canibal he is not. I'd like to see him win a stage or a one day classic before he hangs up the wheels though. Watching him ride into a bronze medal position in Athens was good to watch.

 

[wolfix]

correct. Axel Merckx assumed the role later in his career. Consider though the name that he was supposed to live up to. Canibal he is not. I'd like to see him win a stage or a one day classic before he hangs up the wheels though. Watching him ride into a bronze medal position in Athens was good to watch.

I think all cycling fans would love to see that......

 

[wolfix]

Raul Alcala is currently living in his hometown of Monterrey, Mexico.

.....he also runs cocaine between the borders on his bike dressed as Krusty the clown.

Next time I head down the Mexican Gulf coast I will look for Krusty. I'm usually not too far from Monterrey. Ok....... So now we know what he does, ..........but how do you know this??????
Federales are our friends.......

 

[whiteboytrash]

Next time I head down the Mexican Gulf coast I will look for Krusty. I'm usually not too far from Monterrey. Ok....... So now we know what he does, ..........but how do you know this??????
Federales are our friends.......

I know everything......


http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters/?id=2002/nov08letters#Raul

 

[wolfix]

I know everything......

Ok, thanks for that link, but I was thinking of .......You know...checking out Krusty. Just to talk.... Nothing more.......

 

[limerickman]

correct. Axel Merckx assumed the role later in his career. Consider though the name that he was supposed to live up to. Canibal he is not. I'd like to see him win a stage or a one day classic before he hangs up the wheels though. Watching him ride into a bronze medal position in Athens was good to watch.

Agreed - his dad's reaction that day to his bronze medal was lovely to see.
Eddie was really really happy that day in Athens.

Speaking of Axel - he was having a dreadful mountain stage a couple of years back in the TDF.
He barely crossed the line within the time limit.
Huge applause went up for Axel because he fought and made it within the time limit.
Merckx burst out crying - probably a mixture of gratitude and of frustration at his "bad" performance.
Eurosport gave good coverage to that finish.
Axel has a place in most cycling fans hearts.