Bicycle-centric training for a marathon?

Reid Priedhorsky said:

Fall is turning into winter here in Minneapolis. I found using a trainer
rather dull last winter, so this time I've decided to take up running to
stay in shape over the winter. This led me to think about perhaps running
a marathon next fall.

I was wondering if any of the folks here had comments or resource
suggestions on a more cycling-centric training program for completing a
marathon?

I've done two marathons in the past, and have been a runner for
something like 25yrs.

The issue with the marathon is acclimating your body to the brutal
pounding it will have to endure for hours on end--something that
cycling, blissfully, doesn't subject your body to.

You'd certainly be able to build up the cardiovascular capacity to run
the 26.2 via cycling, but I think you'd be in pretty sore shape by the
halfway point if you don't follow a running-centric marathon training
regimen.

Just my $0.02.
--
Live simply so that others may simply live

Reid Priedhorsky said:

Dear RBM,

Fall is turning into winter here in Minneapolis. I found using a trainer
rather dull last winter, so this time I've decided to take up running to
stay in shape over the winter. This led me to think about perhaps running
a marathon next fall.

The twist is that I prefer cycling to running, and all the marathon
training I've read about is (as one might expect) very running-centric. I
was wondering if any of the folks here had comments or resource
suggestions on a more cycling-centric training program for completing a
marathon?

Thanks for any help,

I think you can effectively use cycling for to help a little with your
aerobic base for a lot of running distances. And aerobic is certainly a
major component of the marathon, but unlike other shorter distances,
there's also the sheer volume of pavement pounding that you have to
prepare your body for. There are horror stories about people doing
regular marathon training programs on softer surfaces like trails or
treadmills, and then busting ligaments when they try to put it all
together on the concrete for 26.2 miles.

If you were to carry through with it, you might be able to get away with
substituting bike workouts for some of your easy/recovery runs during
the week, and focusing your runs on the quality miles: tempo runs,
lactic threshhold intervals, and the ever-popular LSD (long slow
distance). It also might not be as pretty of a race as if you did a more
ideal training schedule, but you'd probably muddle through. Ironman
folks would probably be good people to ask about how it feels to run a
marathon with less run-specific training than most marathoners, and how
to go about it. I don't know if Mike "Iron Penguin" Tennent posts on any
of the bike NGs, but he does or did frequent rec.running, as did a
couple of other tri-atheletes.

That said, would it not make more sense to train for a duathlon (or toss
in the swim component and do a tri)? You could get your "I exterted
myself to the limit for X hours, and all I got was this stupid" t-shirt,
without having to train to run 26.2 miles if you don't really like to
run much.

Neil Brooks said:

Reid Priedhorsky said:

Fall is turning into winter here in Minneapolis. I found using a trainer
rather dull last winter, so this time I've decided to take up running to
stay in shape over the winter. This led me to think about perhaps running
a marathon next fall.

I was wondering if any of the folks here had comments or resource
suggestions on a more cycling-centric training program for completing a
marathon?

I've done two marathons in the past, and have been a runner for
something like 25yrs.

The issue with the marathon is acclimating your body to the brutal
pounding it will have to endure for hours on end--something that
cycling, blissfully, doesn't subject your body to.

You'd certainly be able to build up the cardiovascular capacity to run
the 26.2 via cycling, but I think you'd be in pretty sore shape by the
halfway point if you don't follow a running-centric marathon training
regimen.

I'm not sure about doing a marathon, but I did a half marathon a
couple years ago. My wife works with quite a few avid runners, and
they talked the two of us into doing it (the Grand Canyon
Marathon/Half Marathon). At ~7,000 feet IIRC, and over some
impressive hills and even some lengthy gravel sections.

At any rate, on the way up we were all chatting about the race, and
they asked me how much I had been training.

"Oh, I've run 14.2 miles in the last two years". Stunned silence.
Who was going to break it to the hopelessly naive cyclist that he was
about to die?

I assured them that I used to run, and that I wouldn't die. I don't
think they believed me.

They started believing me when I ran past all of them, and finished
second in my age group.

I'm not at all sure I could have faked my way through a full marathon
though - I was more than ready to stop running at 13.1 miles (the
longest distance I'd ever run).

I'm considering doing the Rock & Roll Half in Phoenix this year, but
mainly just to have fun more than try to set a PR (though it would
probably BE a PR, given the conditions at the last, and only other
half I ever ran).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Reid Priedhorsky said:

Right. I don't intend to substitute long rides for the long runs. (I do
think it's amusing that a quite long run -- say 3 hours -- is basically a
medium ride for someone in reasonably good shape like myself.)

I'm not sure why that's particularly amusing? It's quite easy to ride at
a recreational pace that's not particularly taxing (60% MHR, for
example). Running at a recreational pace that's not particularly taxing
is called "walking." For the same reason, you can take your average
couch-potato cube-farm dweller who hasn't ridden a bike in 10 years out
for a half hour ride and still see a smile on his or her face at the
end. You would not get even remotely similar results if you took the
same out-of-shape person on a half hour jog for their first run--most
people who are out of shape can't run for half an hour continuously,
period. Part of that is because your "lowest gear" (easy pace) is lower
for biking than it is for running. Also, there is no such thing as
"coasting" when you run. It's a lot more work to run up a hill than to
run on the flat, and godbedamned if you don't have to work to get back
down, too.

It is possible to go on a 3-hr bike ride that is as taxing as a 3-hr
run. It is just going to be a *very* fast ride for your typical
"reasonably good shape" recreational cyclist.

Quoted message said:

My concerns in more detail are:

1. Will marathon training cut significantly into my recreational riding?
I.e., if I am running a marathon training schedule, am I going to be too
worn out to enjoy biking on top of that? Will such biking cause
overtraining?

How much do you ride recreationally, and how hard is a recreational ride
for you? If you do most of your recreational riding on the weekends, I'd
have to say it's likely to cut into it pretty seriously. Most
marathoners plan their long run on the weekends, quite naturally. If you
go for a long ride the day before, you will probably not perform
optimally on the long run, and you'll not accomplish as much of a
training effect as you should. If you go for a long ride the day after,
you probably won't be allowing your system to recover.

Quoted message said:

2. Can I substitute rides for some (not all) of the training runs? If so,
which ones? As noted by several folks, the long runs are necessary, and
I'd assume that cycling + weekly long runs is insufficient. However,
where does the line lie? (In a perfect world, someone could point me to
such a training schedule.)

There are beginning marathon programs that are built around 4 running
workouts a week. I would say that 35 miles a week is about as low as you
would want to go for a target peak mileage. The fine folks at
rec.running would probably spank me for suggesting a number so low, but
they also tend to be more oriented toward "doing well" (whatever that
may be for them, personally) rather than simply finishing.

So, with those things in mind, you'd probably want to design something
like a 20-week training program that peaked at week 17 with a 22-mile
long run, a 6-mile hard fartlek workout, and an 8-mile tempo run, plus a
couple of modest bike rides of an hour or so. Fortunately, late fall is
classic marathon time, so your running load will be a little lighter
during the high season of cycling glory in June and July.

Also alternately, you could take advantage of the timing of your running
by training for a spring marathon and just not run at all in the summer
when you want to be biking, anyhow. The only hitch is that there are few
spring marathon-length events in colder climes, just because runners get
dodgy on their training when there's 2 ft of snow on the ground, too.

If your only intent is to "stay in shape", you need not run a marathon.
Several 4-5 mi runs during the week will do the job. However, this
assumes you have fairly solid running base. DrLith rightly pointed out
that an average fit person could hardly run continously and comfortably
(e.g. being able to talk in complete continuous sentences while
running) for even half an hour.

If you do want to run a marathon, you may want to change your attitude
on running vs. cycling -- viewing the latter more as a supplemental
cross-training exercise to running during your recovery from long runs
or even short-term illnesses/injuries. There is another reasoning
behind this change of attitude: a typical marathon training will last
about 6 months (6 months is according to traditional wisdom, some folks
could get by in 4 months) of "progressive overloading". An average fit
person needs that much amount of time to develop sufficient aerobicity
and bone/muscle strength sustainable for hours of enormous pounding
force (2-3x your weight) at each foot strike. By the time you are
going through the painful peak-mileage weeks, you may be thinking of
the sweet cycling times not far ahead and simply lack the motivation to
achieve those quality long runs.

Marathon training emphasizes running-specific activities for good
reasons: during the training, you will be figuring out your optimal
running form, race strategy, goal running pace, diet/rest schedule. In
addition, you will also develop mental techniques (e.g. association and
dissociation) during the critical times in the actual race (e.g.
"hitting the wall" or the last 6-8 miles before the finish line).
These are things that you cannot possibly evaluate from cycling alone.

And yes, marathon training will take you significant amount of time if
you do have a full-time job and/or many family commitments to take care
of. I know this from my experience and other marathon runners.

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You'd certainly be able to build up the cardiovascular capacity to run
the 26.2 via cycling, but I think you'd be in pretty sore shape by the
halfway point if you don't follow a running-centric marathon training
regimen.

This is spot on. I 'ran' a marathon a few days ago (5hrs total, 2hrs at
halfway), with no running preparation, but lots of cycling. I was fine til
after the half-way point, then my legs quickly siezed up. By mile 16, I was
walking. My mood and energy were fine, but could barely move my legs.

I would say stick with half-marathon distance or less, unless you have
the training. Walking much of a race destroys the whole spirit of the
thing.

rms

Reid Priedhorsky said:

The twist is that I prefer cycling to running, and all the marathon
training I've read about is (as one might expect) very running-centric. I
was wondering if any of the folks here had comments or resource
suggestions on a more cycling-centric training program for completing a
marathon?

I missed seeing this thread at first, so I'm late jumping in. I
trained for my first 2 marathons (spring '04 and spring '05) on 2
runs/week. Most of the rest of the week was cycling. I had been a
occasional, recreational runner before this (for about 6-8 years), but
did not run or play sports in school. For me, the idea behind the 2
runs/week plan was to avoid previous injury problems, and to keep up a
cycling base for bike commuting and bike trips. But I also wanted to
do as well in the marathon as possible.

It worked out really well. I ran one long run every 2 weekends, and
alternate weekends were "tempo" pace of about 10 miles. Mid-week runs
were usually hard -- either hills or mile repeats. I just made this
schedule up myself, rather than trying to modify a normal schedule.
The main thing is to gradually ramp up the long runs with a progression
like: 14, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 20. Last long run should be 3 weeks
prior to raceday. Longest long run should be 5 weeks prior. You want
5 long runs of 20+ miles. (all of this is IMHO)

I think you also want to give yourself at least 6 months of consistent
running at shorter distances (also 2/week), with about 2 months devoted
to ramping up the weekend run until it hits 14 miles (when you can
start the actual marathon schedule). So the whole thing will take
about 9-10 months, which should work for a fall '06 race.

This plan got me to a 2:49 for my first marathon, and then a 2:46 for
my second. I am a mediocre flatland cyclist, but above average on
hills (I don't race, but I think I can climb at about the level of a
Cat 3, maybe Cat 2).

Quoted message said:

Reid Priedhorsky said:

The twist is that I prefer cycling to running, and all the marathon
training I've read about is (as one might expect) very running-centric. I
was wondering if any of the folks here had comments or resource
suggestions on a more cycling-centric training program for completing a
marathon?

I missed seeing this thread at first, so I'm late jumping in. I
trained for my first 2 marathons (spring '04 and spring '05) on 2
runs/week. Most of the rest of the week was cycling. I had been a
occasional, recreational runner before this (for about 6-8 years), but
did not run or play sports in school. For me, the idea behind the 2
runs/week plan was to avoid previous injury problems, and to keep up a
cycling base for bike commuting and bike trips. But I also wanted to
do as well in the marathon as possible.

It worked out really well. I ran one long run every 2 weekends, and
alternate weekends were "tempo" pace of about 10 miles. Mid-week runs
were usually hard -- either hills or mile repeats. I just made this
schedule up myself, rather than trying to modify a normal schedule.
The main thing is to gradually ramp up the long runs with a progression
like: 14, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 20. Last long run should be 3 weeks
prior to raceday. Longest long run should be 5 weeks prior. You want
5 long runs of 20+ miles. (all of this is IMHO)

I think you also want to give yourself at least 6 months of consistent
running at shorter distances (also 2/week), with about 2 months devoted
to ramping up the weekend run until it hits 14 miles (when you can
start the actual marathon schedule). So the whole thing will take
about 9-10 months, which should work for a fall '06 race.

This plan got me to a 2:49 for my first marathon, and then a 2:46 for
my second. I am a mediocre flatland cyclist, but above average on
hills (I don't race, but I think I can climb at about the level of a
Cat 3, maybe Cat 2).

Nice marathons! Except, I would question your self-description as an
"occasional, recreational runner." I see some of your race times dating
back at least 6 years (and you have been posting on rec.running since at
least 1992), you usually finish in the top 5% in local races, and your
WAVA numbers pretty consistently above 75%. Of course, you are no Ted
Poulos, but perhaps that's a good thing.

I don't say that to discredit your accomplishment, but I'm just worried
that someone might read your post and say "I'm an occasional,
recreational runner" meaning they go out for a 10-minute-mile jog every
now and then and consider themselves doing well if they stick to the
middle of the pack in the local charity 5K, and think that training for
a marathon on 2 runs a week would be advisable. I'm glad your marathons
worked out well for you, but even the fine folks over on rec.running
were a bit surprised by that, and I think more caveats are in order when
you're basing your recommendations on an experiment of 1.

DrLith said:

Quoted message said:

This plan got me to a 2:49 for my first marathon, and then a 2:46 for
my second. I am a mediocre flatland cyclist, but above average on
hills (I don't race, but I think I can climb at about the level of a
Cat 3, maybe Cat 2).

Nice marathons! Except, I would question your self-description as an
"occasional, recreational runner." I see some of your race times dating
back at least 6 years (and you have been posting on rec.running since at
least 1992), you usually finish in the top 5% in local races, and your
WAVA numbers pretty consistently above 75%. Of course, you are no Ted
Poulos, but perhaps that's a good thing.

I don't say that to discredit your accomplishment, but I'm just worried
that someone might read your post and say "I'm an occasional,
recreational runner" meaning they go out for a 10-minute-mile jog every
now and then and consider themselves doing well if they stick to the
middle of the pack in the local charity 5K, and think that training for
a marathon on 2 runs a week would be advisable. I'm glad your marathons
worked out well for you, but even the fine folks over on rec.running
were a bit surprised by that, and I think more caveats are in order when
you're basing your recommendations on an experiment of 1.

OK, maybe I downplayed my involvement in running a bit, but not too
much. Over the years I have been running, I've averaged 1 to 2 runs
per week (with a few breaks of 6-12 months away from running). I've
spent a LOT more time on the bike!

I'll elaborate on my first post to say that the plan I worked out
should get you reasonably close to what your innate running talent
allows (in terms of race times), but on a much lower volume than
standard plans. But, only if you are fit from your other endurance
sports -- cycling, in this case -- and only if you are consistent in
the running.

So for someone else who has a decent fitness base through cycling, I'd
recommend this: Work up to a comfortable 2/week running base over a
couple of months. Then enter a 10K race and give your utmost effort.
If you screw up the pacing (i.e. go out too hard and then crash&burn),
try another one in a couple of weeks. Then take this race time and
plug it into a race time predictor like the really nice one at
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ .

I found that the McMillan predictor worked well for me up to
half-marathon distance. For the full marathon, I think the low mileage
plan won't get you all the way there, so add at least 5 minutes.

How's that for some caveats?

It might help if you indicated why you want to run a marathon, whether
your goal is to finish or to finish well, whether you have any past or
current running experience, what kind of cycling you do now, and how
much you are willing to compromise your cycling schedule.

I disagree with the poster who says that world-class runners often
include cycling in their training. It's true that elite runners often
use cycling to cross-train through an injury and some include cycling
during their post-season recovery/base building period, but I don't
think you'll find many national or world-class runners riding during
heavy training or racing periods. Likewise, Greg LeMond used to run in
winter (in the Minneapolis area), but I doubt that he ran at all during
the cycling season.

Cycling and running use the same muscles, but the biomechanics are
quite different and training for one produces muscle adaptations that
are counterproductive for the other (eg.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/01001.2002v1).
There's also a tendency to lose muscle mass when switching from cycling
to running and the coordination patterns are different.

Some other miscellaneous points:
If you're just starting out as a runner, don't jump right into
dedicated marathon training. Try out running this winter and do some
shorter races that require less specific preparation. Finishing a
marathon is a great goal to have in front of you; if it's your main
goal as a runner, don't put it behind you too soon. On the other hand,
if you're very fit, you might be able to run a marathon comfortably
without the careful build-up.

You might find running much more enjoyable as you train more. When I'm
in shape and training hard, I can go out for a 10 to 12 mile run and
just cruise through the woods without thinking. When I've missed time
due to illness or injury, it's a painful struggle to run a few miles.
My legs want to go a certain pace but the rest of the system can't keep
up. I get tired before I warm up. If you can find nice routes for
your long runs, they might turn out to be enjoyable substitutes for the
cycling they displace.