Bike fit problems

Phil said:

1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front
hub. Adjust stem length as necessary.

Commonly given advice, but wrong. As with many of these "rules," it
_sometimes_ works out right. But different head tube angles or fork
offsets will skew the results.

The correct process is to adjust stem height and extension until the
rider feels comfortable.

Quoted message said:

2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be
directly over the pedal spindle.

I never heard that one. Sounds like a variation of KOPS.

Quoted message said:

3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose
should be over the knee or something

Ah, that's KOPS: Knee Over Pedal Spindle. It's a good starting point.
Try it and experiment with slight variations to see what feels right.

Quoted message said:

Next issue - cleats. Mine were way out towards the outside,
pointing my toes in and making my inner ankle tendons hurt like
crazy! I moved mine back inwards, then pointing my toes more out, >

and I feel much better.

Set the angle to whatever direction your feet normally point. As far as
fore/aft, set the cleat so the ball of the foot is either directly over
the pedal spindle, or _slightly_ forward of the spindle (never aft).

Art Harris

Phil said:

Even as a cycle shop employee, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert
on road bike fitting.

Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:
1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. Adjust
stem length as necessary
2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly over
the pedal spindle.
3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be
over the knee or something

Does anyone disagree or have more input?

We use a plumb line at work, but I always hand off the bike fit issues to my
coworkers.

Long rides on my road bike have really plain *hurt* from a variety of
sources. I switched out my Specialized Body Geometry saddle for a slightly
lighter Vetta Trishock or something a few months ago. Fine for around
town, but after 10 minutes on the saddle, it hurts... 30 miles simply kills,
and I'm sore for a few days after. Switching out the saddle back to the
Spec BG initially hurt because it was so firm, but the support was perfectly
on the sit bones, ergo, happy hiney.

Next issue - cleats. Mine were way out towards the outside, pointing my
toes in and making my inner ankle tendons hurt like crazy! I moved mine
back inwards, then pointing my toes more out, and I feel much better.

Next issue - uneven pain. I think my right leg is shorter than the left.
I'm not sure by exactly how much, but my right ankle was hurting more than
my left. It could just be that that foot was angled in more than the
left... need to take a long ride to be sure.

Next (and final, unsolved issue) - stem length and ultimately frame size. I
ride an old-school 50cm GT Edge. I have a 31in inseam, and I'm 5'5" tall.
I started out with a 100mm stem. Bleah! Cut it down to a Dimension 60mm...
it still feels too long. Thomson used to make a silver 50mm road stem...
now only they and one other manufacturer make 50mm road stems, both black.
I'd like to keep the silver if possible... the bike is polished alu. I ride
a short stem on my MTB and love it... I like the more direct steering aspect
of short stems. Does anyone think that my frame might still be too large,
and I'm compensating the wrong way? BTW, if it helps, my preferred XC MTB
size is 16-17"

We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said the
one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards first
published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but things like
-in drops, hbar covers front axle
-leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal
-elbow on nose of saddle, arm outstretched, fingers should be 1/2 of the
stem-type stuff.

Saddles are tough. Even if ya sit on them properly, they may still be
uncomfortable. If you saddle is too high, ya may be rocking, casuing
chaffing, causing sorness.

Phil, Squid-in-Training at [email hidden] wrote on
3/6/05 8:56 PM:

Quoted message said:

Even as a cycle shop employee, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert
on road bike fitting.

Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:
1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. Adjust
stem length as necessary
2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly over
the pedal spindle.
3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be
over the knee or something

Does anyone disagree or have more input?

"Guidelines" are not rules. IME #1 generally occurs, but is an outcome of
fit, not the other way around. #2 seems a mis-quote of KOPS. #3 seems the
same as #2.

KB's article supplies good food for thought - (I think it's also on
Sheldon's site, but the bookmark I have is here)

http://www.bsn.com/Cycling/articles/kops.html

It also depends significantly upon who you are fitting. Generally speaking,
most people would benfit from higher bars and a more upright position.
Go-Fast-Folk want to get that classic flat back and want to see the bar
height well below the saddle (and that's not a realistic place to start for
anyone remotely average.) Small changes over a period of time are much
easier on the body. Even if you are a young, flexible, no-pain-feeling
go-faster, you want to work your way into your final position.

Rivendell has a good, commonsense article about fit -

http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html

Quoted message said:

Long rides on my road bike have really plain *hurt* from a variety of
sources. I switched out my Specialized Body Geometry saddle for a slightly
lighter Vetta Trishock or something a few months ago. Fine for around
town, but after 10 minutes on the saddle, it hurts... 30 miles simply kills,
and I'm sore for a few days after. Switching out the saddle back to the
Spec BG initially hurt because it was so firm, but the support was perfectly
on the sit bones, ergo, happy hiney.

Saddle pain - you kind of have to figure that out yourself, but if it hurts
after 10 minutes, it probably won't get better on a longer ride. I would
measure the BG saddle where your bones hit it. That would give you a sense
of how wide a saddle you need. If you look at the saddle from the rear,
you'll see some are extremely curved and others are flat. Take a look at the
shape of a Brooks B-17. Even if you can't rationalize the weight, it fits a
lot of folks very well. There's a reason for it. It's flat and reasonably
wide in the back and low in the middle. Most people can benefit from that.

Reduce your other variables as well - wear the same type of shorts, for
example. Also, pay attention to saddle height and fore/aft position in the
post. Friend of mine swapped saddles and didn't notice that the rail height
was different. Suffered for a long while after that between chaffed bits
and sore knees.

Quoted message said:

Next issue - cleats. Mine were way out towards the outside, pointing my
toes in and making my inner ankle tendons hurt like crazy! I moved mine
back inwards, then pointing my toes more out, and I feel much better.

Ok. Very good move. Um, how'd they get "way out..."? Nothing cycling should
"hurt like crazy" (unless you are really into that...).

Quoted message said:

Next issue - uneven pain. I think my right leg is shorter than the left.
I'm not sure by exactly how much, but my right ankle was hurting more than
my left. It could just be that that foot was angled in more than the
left... need to take a long ride to be sure.

Might also be that your hips are slightly twisted. Or that one hip is
tighter than the other. Stretching and flexibility excercises help. I'd
also check the spindle on the pedal and make sure there isn't a slight bend
in it.

I wouldn't draw a big conclusion until you get your feet pointing where they
should be and the pain goes away - "hurting more than..." is not a very good
test, as your body starts to protect itself -- tightening up when you are
adversely stressing it - ever notice that if you limp for a while on a sore
leg that the "good" leg starts to suffer?

Get someone to watch you while you pedal - often it's easy for others to see
when someone has their saddle set too high or rides with their hips cocked
off to the side.

Quoted message said:

Next (and final, unsolved issue) - stem length and ultimately frame size. I
ride an old-school 50cm GT Edge. I have a 31in inseam, and I'm 5'5" tall.
I started out with a 100mm stem. Bleah! Cut it down to a Dimension 60mm...
it still feels too long. Thomson used to make a silver 50mm road stem...
now only they and one other manufacturer make 50mm road stems, both black.
I'd like to keep the silver if possible... the bike is polished alu. I ride
a short stem on my MTB and love it... I like the more direct steering aspect
of short stems. Does anyone think that my frame might still be too large,
and I'm compensating the wrong way? BTW, if it helps, my preferred XC MTB
size is 16-17"

Long leg length for your height. I'm 6 inches taller but only have 1" more
inseam. I don't know the top tube length on your bike, but there probably
are others with shorter TT's. That may help, given your dimensions. You
might want to look at different handlebars - perhaps one with less drop and
less reach. Riv's noodle bar may help, as it also comes back a bit towards
you on the tops.

It might also be worth it to go get fitted by someone who has the
experience.

Hope something in there helps,

-- Jim

--

CycloFiend

to reply directly, replace the dashes to create the name above

Phil said:

Even as a cycle shop employee, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert
on road bike fitting.

Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:
1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. Adjust
stem length as necessary

I use another old one instead; place your elbow on the nose of the
saddle and the bars should be an inch or two beyond the tip of your
middle finger.

Quoted message said:

2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly over
the pedal spindle.

Never heard this.

Quoted message said:

3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be
over the knee or something

Normally the centre of the knee joint, or the kneecap (depends who you
talk to) should be over the pedal spindle. It's a good rule of thumb
for saddle setback, but not that critical really. Look at recumbents!

Assuming the frame has reasonably proportional geometry, top tube length
should be your starting point.

Zog The Undeniable said:

I use another old one instead; place your elbow on the nose of the
saddle and the bars should be an inch or two beyond the tip of your
middle finger.

Hmm. Peter wrote something similar earlier. When I do that my fingers
barely cover the stem cap, leaving the full length of the stem (2.5~3"?) to
the bar. I have my saddle set pretty far back, but I don't feel at all too
stretched out or anything; think I'll leave things be!

(Just checked both of my mountain bikes, and they're about the same --
fingers /barely/ reach the top cap.)

I also tried the "can't see the front hub" thing -- just sitting on the
(road) bike and not riding it -- and indeed the line of sight is blocked,
but by the brake calipers and not the stem/bar junction. Hub is almost
exactly half-way under the stem in line-of-sight terms.

Maybe I have short forearms? My torso isn't disproportionately long, that's
for sure...

Freak Bill

Quoted message said:

Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:
1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub.
Adjust stem length as necessary

Almost sorta kinda, but that means that your position on the bike would be
different if you had a 73 degree headtube (with attendant shorter fork
offset) vs a 72 degree headtube (with a longer corresponding offset for
neutral handling). That obviously makes very little sense.

Something else to consider is that most such "rules" came to be long before
we had STI shifting, and I daresay the "normal" position we ride in has
changed considerably from when we had downtube shifters. At all times keep
in mind that the rider shouldn't be too stretched out when on the hoods,
since that's a position they're going to spend a lot of time in.

Another thing to think about is that most riders benefit from a shorter
forward reach on the bars. Back in the day, you had an aggressive position
on the hoods, and a relaxed position on the flats. But now, if you set
something up aggressive for the hoods you're likely in trouble, because
that's where people are going to spend a lot of their time (since you do the
shifting from there).

Quoted message said:

2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly
over the pedal spindle.

That's a new one. Don't know where it comes from; might be approximately
correct, but are you looking at that for cleat placement or seat height?

Quoted message said:

3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be
over the knee or something

A bit better is to have the crank roughly lined up with the downtube, and
look for a 90 degree inside bend to the knee. This is a good cross-check for
seat height (the other being the classic slight bend when the pedal's at the
bottom and heel flat, which is pretty much the old 109% of inseam).

But these are all static measurements, and you really need to observe what
someone looks like when actually riding. In particular, pay attention to
their back. If it's got a large arch in it, that's an indication that
classic riding position just isn't going to work and you need to bring them
back a bit. Some people use trainers, but I much prefer watching someone
ride in real life, even if just in a parking lot. People tend to "perform"
on a trainer, and try to figure out what you're looking for and assume that
position. Out on the road, they relax in short order and you see things that
otherwise wouldn't show up.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Next issue - cleats. Mine were way out towards the outside,
pointing my toes in and making my inner ankle tendons hurt like
crazy! I moved mine back inwards, then pointing my toes more out, >
and I feel much better.

Set the angle to whatever direction your feet normally point. As far
as fore/aft, set the cleat so the ball of the foot is either directly
over the pedal spindle, or _slightly_ forward of the spindle (never
aft).

What's weird is that I find my Northwave SPD shoes have the cleat slots so
far forward. I've had to place my cleats on the rear pair of the SPD shoe
plates AND slide them all the way back just to get the spindle on the ball.
I don't feel toe pain very much, except that my toes are pretty cramped
since the shoes are narrow compared to my feet. That's been another issue
that I've been meaning to fix, but I ride with clipless so rarely that it's
an issue for that day and then I forget. Thanks for the input though.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

Quoted message said:

Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:
1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub.
Adjust stem length as necessary

Almost sorta kinda, but that means that your position on the bike would be
different if you had a 73 degree headtube (with attendant shorter fork
offset) vs a 72 degree headtube (with a longer corresponding offset for
neutral handling). That obviously makes very little sense.

It just came to my attention that this changes from time to time. About two
months ago, the last time I remember looking, my bar did not eclipse the hub.
Today it does. Maybe it's because I'm more flexy and fit the bike better at this
point in the year. Still it does change.

Quoted message said:

Something else to consider is that most such "rules" came to be long before
we had STI shifting, and I daresay the "normal" position we ride in has
changed considerably from when we had downtube shifters. At all times keep
in mind that the rider shouldn't be too stretched out when on the hoods,
since that's a position they're going to spend a lot of time in.

Good point. Well, all good stuff.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Another thing to think about is that most riders benefit from a shorter
forward reach on the bars. Back in the day, you had an aggressive position
on the hoods, and a relaxed position on the flats. But now, if you set
something up aggressive for the hoods you're likely in trouble, because
that's where people are going to spend a lot of their time (since you do the
shifting from there).

Quoted message said:

2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly
over the pedal spindle.

That's a new one. Don't know where it comes from; might be approximately
correct, but are you looking at that for cleat placement or seat height?

Quoted message said:

3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be
over the knee or something

A bit better is to have the crank roughly lined up with the downtube, and
look for a 90 degree inside bend to the knee. This is a good cross-check for
seat height (the other being the classic slight bend when the pedal's at the
bottom and heel flat, which is pretty much the old 109% of inseam).

But these are all static measurements, and you really need to observe what
someone looks like when actually riding. In particular, pay attention to
their back. If it's got a large arch in it, that's an indication that
classic riding position just isn't going to work and you need to bring them
back a bit. Some people use trainers, but I much prefer watching someone
ride in real life, even if just in a parking lot. People tend to "perform"
on a trainer, and try to figure out what you're looking for and assume that
position. Out on the road, they relax in short order and you see things that
otherwise wouldn't show up.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

Squid-in-Training said:

Next (and final, unsolved issue) - stem length and ultimately frame size. I
ride an old-school 50cm GT Edge. I have a 31in inseam, and I'm 5'5" tall.
I started out with a 100mm stem. Bleah! Cut it down to a Dimension 60mm...
it still feels too long.

From what you say, it seem that you ride your bicycle in a more
upright position. The goal is to reach for the bars by rocking your
hips forward instead of bending over as if you were going to touch
your toes. After a bicycle fitting where I was told to do that, I
went from a 90 mm to 120 mm stem. It took more than a year to get
there. Less pressure on my butt, more shock absorbtion in my arms and
legs. My bars are about 3" below my seat.

My wife, whose measurements are similar to yours, rides a 50 cm x 50
cm toptube bicycle with a 12 cm stem. Four years ago when she
started, she was using a 8 cm stem.

Turned down bars are not for everyone.

Squid-in-Training said:

Even as a cycle shop employee, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert
on road bike fitting.

Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:
1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. Adjust
stem length as necessary
2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly over
the pedal spindle.
3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be
over the knee or something

Does anyone disagree or have more input?

I have a "Bike Fit" folder in my browser's bookmark file that I've
built up over many years. After not looking at it in some time I
checked it this morning and found that most of the pages/sites have
disappeared. These are the ones that are still valid.

http://www.bsn.com/Cycling/ergobike.html
http://www.coloradocyclist.com/BikeFit/
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-sizing.html
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

Also, I understand Rivendell has a revisionist fit article, but it's
not on their web site. They claim " We have too much to say about fit
and sizing to include it all here (see our print catalogue or
elsewhere online)." A google search hasn't turned up the article.
Anyone?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

John Everett said:

Also, I understand Rivendell has a revisionist fit article, but
it's not on their web site. They claim " We have too much to say
about fit and sizing to include it all here (see our print
catalogue or elsewhere online)." A google search hasn't turned up >

the article.

Quoted message said:

Anyone?

Try this link for the Rivendell method:

http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html

Art Harris

Tom Sherman said:

Peter Chisholm said:

We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said
the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards
first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but
things like
...
-leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...

This even works on a recumbent! 😉

Quoted message said:

[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment 😉]

Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to
buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair
with wheels.

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

Tom Sherman said:

Peter Chisholm said:

We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said
the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards
first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but
things like
...
-leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...

This even works on a recumbent! 😉

Quoted message said:

[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment 😉]

Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to
buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair
with wheels.

Peter, it's imperative to get a proper fitting when selecting a
recumbent. How will you know that your Big Gulp will fit easily in the
bottle cages if you don't test it beforehand?

--
Mark Chandler
Superior, CO
http://www.MileHighSkates.com

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

Tom Sherman said:

Peter Chisholm said:

We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said
the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards
first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but
things like
...
-leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...

This even works on a recumbent! 😉

Quoted message said:

[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment 😉]

Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to
buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair
with wheels.

Peter, it's imperative to get a proper fitting when selecting a
recumbent. How will you know that your Big Gulp will fit easily in the
bottle cages if you don't test it beforehand?

--
Mark Chandler
Superior, CO
http://www.MileHighSkates.com

Peter Chisholm said:

Tom Sherman said:

Peter Chisholm said:

We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said
the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards
first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but
things like
...
-leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...

This even works on a recumbent! 😉

Quoted message said:

[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment 😉]

Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to
buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair
with wheels.

Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to
pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed. 🙂

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This even works on a recumbent! 😉

Quoted message said:

[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment 😉]

Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart
to buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn
chair with wheels.

Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to
pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed. 🙂

'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed
upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent
answers no question, solves no problems.

BUT adds many, as have been talked about before. If ya like yer 'bent,
groovy but it shouldn't be painted as some sort of panacea for the
'dreaded problems of uprights'.

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed
upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent
answers no question, solves no problems.

Lord knows I'm not an apologist for recumbents (although I must admit
I did once ride one around a parking lot), but one problem 'bents
solve is aerodynamic drag.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Peter Chisholm said:

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

> This even works on a recumbent! 😉
>

>
> [Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment 😉]
>

Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart
to buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn
chair with wheels.

Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to
pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed. 🙂

'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed
upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent
answers no question, solves no problems.

It is great fun living in a flat windy area, passing better conditioned
riders with ease. 😉

Recumbents are also great for annoying conformist upright riders who
believe that everyone that does not ride the proper bike, wear the
proper clothes, etc. should get off the road [1]. These people are often
less tolerant than the worst religious fanatics.

Quoted message said:

BUT adds many, as have been talked about before. If ya like yer 'bent,
groovy but it shouldn't be painted as some sort of panacea for the
'dreaded problems of uprights'.

Then why is there so much talk about comfort problems, and why is fit
such a complicated issue on an upright bicycle?

[1] Think real life Fabrizio Mazzoleni's.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Tom Sherman said:

Peter Chisholm said:

Tom Sherman said:

>> This even works on a recumbent! 😉
>>
>
>>
>> [Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment 😉]
>>
>
> Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart
> to buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn
> chair with wheels.

Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to
pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed. 🙂

'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed
upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent
answers no question, solves no problems.

It is great fun living in a flat windy area, passing better conditioned
riders with ease. 😉

I've got two words for you, well sort of a compound anyway: Cyclo-Cross!

Ron