Bladed spokes?

Quoted message said:

Just replaced my 20-year old bike with a new Specialized Sequoia. So
anything I know about bikes is about 20 years old. The new bike came
with wheels with "bladed spokes." My first inclination was to pick up
a couple of extra spokes in case of a broken spoke on the road. When I
asked the fellow at the bike store about this he replied "Oh, no, you
can't replace those spokes on the road yourself," and proceeded to tell
me something about tools, tension, and so on.

I replied, "So if I break a spoke the ride is over, and I hitch a ride
back home?" He replied, "Yes, that's about it. Or you can creep along
carefully on the wobbly wheel until you get back home." He then
comforted me with this: "Of course, these spokes break much less
frequently than the ones you're used to."

Well, I was both comforted by that and not comforted. I've tried to
find out some more information on bladed spokes. I was unable to find
anything more than a passing mention of them in any of the bicycling
books at the local bookstore. On the internet the main concern with
bladed spokes seeems to be a) whether they are more aerodynamic than
other spokes, and b) how to attach a bike computer magnet to them. In
my case a) I'm not an aerodynamic kind of guy, and b) I don't have a
bike computer. So this information is not of much use to me.

So, a few questions:

1) is it true that if a bladed spoke breaks you're SOL?

2) if you're not SOL what is the fix?

3) how often might one expect a bladed spoke to break? One every
thousand miles? Ten thousand miles?

4) is there a source of information on bladed spokes over and above
their aerodynamic and bike computer properties?

How many spokes? If 16 or 12 be afraid. Be very afraid.

With 36 you shouldn't worry at all.

Blades, usually being light gauge, are often a little less
material than a round 14-15DB spoke and hence slightly less
reliable. But if you have a suitable rim, adequate tension
and enough of them that difference is slight, IMHO. I still
build with them when asked.

That being said, your rear wheel is in turbulence anyway so
why bother there?

On a special event ( tt or triathlon) bike, they look cool
in front, have little downside and offer the rider a
psychological if not an actual aero advantage at little cost
of money or reliability.

The last time I sold anything from Specialized ( 1983) the
Sequoia model was a top quality long tough lugged frame
touring bike. Aero spokes on that?? Whatever for?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

[email hidden] wrote:

How many spokes? If 16 or 12 be afraid. Be very afraid.

I'm going to assume Jim's got a new Sequoia Comp:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=9734
which features:
RIMS Alex ALX-330, 700c, alloy double wall, machined sidewalls
FRONT HUB Alex ALX-330, 16 hole, sealed bearing, black, alloy QR
REAR HUB Alex ALX-330, 20 hole, cassette, sealed bearing, black, alloy
QR
SPOKES Alex 2.0mm (14g), super aero stainless, black alloy nipples

Personally, I think the salesdude's blowing smoke. From what I've seen
of the Alex wheels, I think the spokes are *relatively* standard, and
should be replaceable using standard techniques. I don't know where
you'll get replacements, though. If the shop's not willing to sell you
spare parts, I think you should ask for your money back. (As a matter
of fact, I think they're legally required to sell spare parts. I'm not
certain, though.)

The wheel designers traded off fewer spokes for a heavier rim, ending
up with a wheel that might be more durable than you're used to. It's
not how I would want to build a strong wheel, though.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

1) is it true that if a bladed spoke breaks you're SOL?

If the rim is adequately strong, breaking a single spoke may be no more of
an "event" than would be the case in a more conventional 32/36-spoke wheel.

Quoted message said:

2) if you're not SOL what is the fix?

Many boutique wheels *can* be repaired on the spot. Very rarely do they
require special tools to work on. It shouldn't be that tough to learn how to
do it in most cases.

Quoted message said:

3) how often might one expect a bladed spoke to break? One every
thousand miles? Ten thousand miles?

If the wheel is designed well, you shouldn't have to worry about a broken
spoke at all, unless you're unfortunate enough to get something snagged in
your wheel. In general, the spokes will outlast the rim.

Quoted message said:

4) is there a source of information on bladed spokes over and above
their aerodynamic and bike computer properties?

There are websites with info regarding the aerodynamic advantages of bladed
spokes, but that's not really what the fancy wheels are all about. Style
counts for a lot of the reason they're used. Besides, in many cases, you can
replace a bladed spoke with a conventional round one. But strength of a
bladed spoke has never been an issue; there's nothing about them that makes
them any less strong than a round spoke.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just replaced my 20-year old bike with a new Specialized Sequoia. So
anything I know about bikes is about 20 years old. The new bike came
with wheels with "bladed spokes." My first inclination was to pick up
a couple of extra spokes in case of a broken spoke on the road. When I
asked the fellow at the bike store about this he replied "Oh, no, you
can't replace those spokes on the road yourself," and proceeded to tell
me something about tools, tension, and so on.

I replied, "So if I break a spoke the ride is over, and I hitch a ride
back home?" He replied, "Yes, that's about it. Or you can creep along
carefully on the wobbly wheel until you get back home." He then
comforted me with this: "Of course, these spokes break much less
frequently than the ones you're used to."

Well, I was both comforted by that and not comforted. I've tried to
find out some more information on bladed spokes. I was unable to find
anything more than a passing mention of them in any of the bicycling
books at the local bookstore. On the internet the main concern with
bladed spokes seeems to be a) whether they are more aerodynamic than
other spokes, and b) how to attach a bike computer magnet to them. In
my case a) I'm not an aerodynamic kind of guy, and b) I don't have a
bike computer. So this information is not of much use to me.

So, a few questions:

1) is it true that if a bladed spoke breaks you're SOL?

2) if you're not SOL what is the fix?

3) how often might one expect a bladed spoke to break? One every
thousand miles? Ten thousand miles?

4) is there a source of information on bladed spokes over and above
their aerodynamic and bike computer properties?

Many thanks

jim

may have said:

I replied, "So if I break a spoke the ride is over, and I hitch a ride
back home?" He replied, "Yes, that's about it. Or you can creep along
carefully on the wobbly wheel until you get back home." He then
comforted me with this: "Of course, these spokes break much less
frequently than the ones you're used to."

If this guy's accustomed to having regular spokes break without
foreign objects getting into the wheel to do it, then the shop's
probably not doing a very good job of wheel building. That's just a
side issue, but worth mentioning.

Quoted message said:

So, a few questions:

1) is it true that if a bladed spoke breaks you're SOL?

It depends on a lot of things. On a wheel with 12, 16 or 20 spokes,
bladed or not, a broken spoke often means that the wheel acquires a
death wobble. Even a 24-spoke wheel may be subject to excessive
waviness with a broken spoke. Sometimes it is possible to achieve a
temporary state of ridability by backing off on the tension of the
adjacent other-side spokes, but this has its own set of issues.

Quoted message said:

2) if you're not SOL what is the fix?

If the wheel's bladed spokes are merely mounted in a rim and hub that
would have accepted a conventional spoke, and if you've got a spare
conventional spoke of the correct length along, swapping it in can be
the fix. Of course, with a 32- or 36-spoke wheel, this would not even
be an issue.

Quoted message said:

3) how often might one expect a bladed spoke to break? One every
thousand miles? Ten thousand miles?

YMMV, but reports I've heard do not lead me to believe that they have
a failure rate remarkably different from regular spokes.

Quoted message said:

4) is there a source of information on bladed spokes over and above
their aerodynamic and bike computer properties?

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes has some pros and cons
if you scroll down a bit. (Mostly cons.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

I believe that the spokes on those wheels are the standard "J" bend
type. You should tell your shop that you want a spare "drive side" and
a spare "non-drive side" If he won't do that, it's time to look for
another shop.
If you know the spoke lengths and gauge of the blades, you could sub a
standard spoke until you got the proper spoke.

Ps. I think that those wheels are the same as the "house brand"
Performance aero wheels. As a last resort, you might want to check with
them to verify that, and to see if they have spokes.

Quoted message said:

Just replaced my 20-year old bike with a new Specialized Sequoia. So
anything I know about bikes is about 20 years old. The new bike came
with wheels with "bladed spokes." My first inclination was to pick up
a couple of extra spokes in case of a broken spoke on the road. When I
asked the fellow at the bike store about this he replied "Oh, no, you
can't replace those spokes on the road yourself," and proceeded to tell
me something about tools, tension, and so on.

I replied, "So if I break a spoke the ride is over, and I hitch a ride
back home?" He replied, "Yes, that's about it. Or you can creep along
carefully on the wobbly wheel until you get back home." He then
comforted me with this: "Of course, these spokes break much less
frequently than the ones you're used to."

Well, I was both comforted by that and not comforted. I've tried to
find out some more information on bladed spokes. I was unable to find
anything more than a passing mention of them in any of the bicycling
books at the local bookstore. On the internet the main concern with
bladed spokes seeems to be a) whether they are more aerodynamic than
other spokes, and b) how to attach a bike computer magnet to them. In
my case a) I'm not an aerodynamic kind of guy, and b) I don't have a
bike computer. So this information is not of much use to me.

So, a few questions:

1) is it true that if a bladed spoke breaks you're SOL?

no more than an unbladed spoke in the same kind of wheel.

Quoted message said:

2) if you're not SOL what is the fix?

temp is replacement with a conventional spoke. otherwise replace with
another bladed spoke. no black magic there.

Quoted message said:

3) how often might one expect a bladed spoke to break? One every
thousand miles? Ten thousand miles?

according to fatigue info at www.sapim.be, bladed spokes can last longer
than ordinary.

Quoted message said:

4) is there a source of information on bladed spokes over and above
their aerodynamic and bike computer properties?

google bladed spoke benefits, 6,620 hits.

Quoted message said:

Many thanks

jim

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:03:20 -0700, Peter Chisholm

may have said:

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name="peter.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="peter.vcf"

begin:vcard
fn:Qui Si Parla Campagnolo
n:Chisholm;Peter
email;internet:[email hidden]
tel;work:303-440-3535
version:2.1
end:vcard

Uhh, Peter, I think you'll find that turning off the misfeature which
includes those .vcf attachments will make you more popular both in
email and in Usenet.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:03:20 -0700, Peter Chisholm

may have said:

--------------000900010603000706050003
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8;
name="peter.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="peter.vcf"

begin:vcard
fn:Qui Si Parla Campagnolo
n:Chisholm;Peter
email;internet:[email hidden]
tel;work:303-440-3535
version:2.1
end:vcard

Uhh, Peter, I think you'll find that turning off the misfeature which
includes those .vcf attachments will make you more popular both in
email and in Usenet.

Uhhh great, how do I do that?

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:40:05 -0700, Qui Si Parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:03:20 -0700, Peter Chisholm

may have said:

--------------000900010603000706050003
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8;
name="peter.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="peter.vcf"

begin:vcard
fn:Qui Si Parla Campagnolo
n:Chisholm;Peter
email;internet:[email hidden]
tel;work:303-440-3535
version:2.1
end:vcard

Uhh, Peter, I think you'll find that turning off the misfeature which
includes those .vcf attachments will make you more popular both in
email and in Usenet.

Uhhh great, how do I do that?

Yeah, what the heck is that ".VCF" thing anyway.

I use agent so I just see it as some weird attachment.

Ron

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

Werehatrack said:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:03:20 -0700, Peter Chisholm

may have said:

--------------000900010603000706050003
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8;
name="peter.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="peter.vcf"

begin:vcard
fn:Qui Si Parla Campagnolo
n:Chisholm;Peter
email;internet:[email hidden]
tel;work:303-440-3535
version:2.1
end:vcard

Uhh, Peter, I think you'll find that turning off the misfeature
which
includes those .vcf attachments will make you more popular both in
email and in Usenet.

Uhhh great, how do I do that?

Edit --> Account Settings --> uncheck "Attach my vCard to messages"

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:40:05 -0700, Qui Si Parla Campagnolo

may have said:

Werehatrack said:

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:03:20 -0700, Peter Chisholm

may have said:

--------------000900010603000706050003
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8;
name="peter.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="peter.vcf"

begin:vcard
fn:Qui Si Parla Campagnolo
n:Chisholm;Peter
email;internet:[email hidden]
tel;work:303-440-3535
version:2.1
end:vcard

Uhh, Peter, I think you'll find that turning off the misfeature which
includes those .vcf attachments will make you more popular both in
email and in Usenet.

Uhhh great, how do I do that?

You didn't have it when you were first posting, so something that you
did must have started putting it on there. Try looking for the
feature that attaches a signature file, and see if it's pointed at a
file that ends with .vcf; if so, point it at a file that ends in .txt,
and then just put what you want to have for a .sig into that txt file.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:40:05 -0700, Qui Si Parla Campagnolo

may have said:

Werehatrack said:

Uhh, Peter, I think you'll find that turning off the misfeature which
includes those .vcf attachments will make you more popular both in
email and in Usenet.

Uhhh great, how do I do that?

Okay, I did a quick install of TBird and located the place where it's
enabled. Right-click on the account that you use for Usenet, select
Properties, and then down at the bottom of the gray part of the
Account Settings window where it says "Attach my vcard to messages",
uncheck that box.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Just replaced my 20-year old bike with a new Specialized Sequoia. So
anything I know about bikes is about 20 years old. The new bike came
with wheels with "bladed spokes." My first inclination was to pick

up

Quoted message said:

a couple of extra spokes in case of a broken spoke on the road. When

I

Quoted message said:

asked the fellow at the bike store about this he replied "Oh, no, you
can't replace those spokes on the road yourself," and proceeded to

tell

Quoted message said:

me something about tools, tension, and so on.

I replied, "So if I break a spoke the ride is over, and I hitch a

ride

Quoted message said:

back home?" He replied, "Yes, that's about it. Or you can creep

along

Quoted message said:

carefully on the wobbly wheel until you get back home." He then
comforted me with this: "Of course, these spokes break much less
frequently than the ones you're used to."

Well, I was both comforted by that and not comforted. I've tried to
find out some more information on bladed spokes. I was unable to

find

Quoted message said:

anything more than a passing mention of them in any of the bicycling
books at the local bookstore. On the internet the main concern with
bladed spokes seeems to be a) whether they are more aerodynamic than
other spokes, and b) how to attach a bike computer magnet to them.

In

Quoted message said:

my case a) I'm not an aerodynamic kind of guy, and b) I don't have a
bike computer. So this information is not of much use to me.

So, a few questions:

1) is it true that if a bladed spoke breaks you're SOL?

2) if you're not SOL what is the fix?

3) how often might one expect a bladed spoke to break? One every
thousand miles? Ten thousand miles?

4) is there a source of information on bladed spokes over and above
their aerodynamic and bike computer properties?

There is no significant difference between bladed and round spokes,
they are interchangeable except for appearance.

The real reliability/field repair issue is with low spoke count wheels.
They are a poor choice for touring or distance riding, although I'm
constantly amazed at how many are used in those modes. Low spoke count
wheels suffer more wobble when a spoke breaks. Replacing a spoke in the
field is not a sure thing with any wheel type since it frequently
requires removing the cassette, but 32/36 spoke wheels can be easily
trued with a single missing spoke.

If I were you, I'd stress relieve those wheels and ride them without
worry. They may not be ideal from a reliability standpoint, but there
are enough of them in use that I don't think they'll be a real problem.

On 3 Mar 2005 11:05:33 -0800, "Peter Cole"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

If I were you, I'd stress relieve those wheels and ride them without
worry.

[snip]

Dear Peter,

I think that I remember the question of stress-relief
technique on bladed spokes coming up, but I don't remember
what was suggested.

Any tips for how to stress-relieve bladed spokes? That is,
are heavy gloves enough protection for spoke-squeezers?
Should Sheldon's twist-two-spokes-with-an-old-crank method
be preferred or avoided?

Carl Fogel

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:41:16 -0600, Jim Smith <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Edit --> Account Settings --> uncheck "Attach my vCard to messages"

Bingo. You beat me to it.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

The problem with low count and bladed spokes is you cannot getn enough tension with a wrench only. Bladed spokes will let you know by visible wind-up but round will fail from torsion before proper tension is reached.

If you are flexible, you can load the wheel and get proper tension in the field although it might take a rope/belt/stout helper. But 9 times out of 10, the broken spoke will be on the drive side and replacement is made more difficult.

Get a FiberFix (tm) spoke. Its universal, easy to install and immune from torsion. Actually, torsion is a part of the design since the aramid fiber is resistant to the gradual twist and the increased elasticity requires more adjustment than the 12mm of a standard nipple. If you tie it off once the wheel is retrued, it will maintain true until you can get a proper fix.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, a few questions:

1) is it true that if a bladed spoke breaks you're SOL?

Of course not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) if you're not SOL what is the fix?

Carry a spare round spoke of the appropriate length, for on-road
repairs. Replace it with a bladed spoke when you get home.

Greg

Quoted message said:

Any tips for how to stress-relieve bladed spokes? That is,
are heavy gloves enough protection for spoke-squeezers?

I think so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Uhhh great, how do I do that?

Edit --> Account Settings --> uncheck "Attach my vCard to messages"

Got it-grazie-new to this non-AOHELL stuff