Block Training

SolarEnergy said:

I think that most concepts now have to be revisited, processed through new means of quantifying training loads. Whoawhoa did that very well in his earlier post, and I'm sure some could come up with other interpretations as well.

In my earlier post, I intentionally put down a marker for a pretty intense training schedule. I don't know how many people log 6 hrs/wk of L4-L6 training time, but it's a pretty heavy load. And the allocations weren't off the wall either unless one is training for very short duration events. I think I could put forward a pretty good argument for the training volume (if one can ride 12 hrs/wk), the high-intensity minutes and the allocation of high-intensity efforts. But, I'm not sure I could put together an argument for a 3on/2off vs. alternating days training schedule or for a focus on one adaptation to the exclusion of all others (e.g., only L4s or only L5s). I think these issues rank way down the priority list after the ones above (total high-intensity time per week and allocation by targeted adaptation).

SolarEnergy said:

Have you tried the good ol' "hard/easy/hard/easy" approach?

Were you unsuccessful with it? Did you plateau?

As for the fact that some might find it hard to deliver two days in a row well... That's partly because "deliverying the goods" doesn't mean the same thing for one who can lower the 40k well under the hour.

Try it. 40k flat out. Then do it again the day after.

You know, I'm not saying it's your case Ti. But I've seen very often guys who are seeking for sophisticated means of training to compensate for a lack of balls. Training can never be complicated enough, and no scientific evidence can compensate for not being able to deliver the goods when it counts.

Sure I have tried easy/hard. Mostly I followed the Lemond approach in training, which is a form of block training. Lemond usually did two micro cycles within each week, one three days long and the other two days long before taking either a day off or recovery ride day. The blocks worked down from most intense day to least intense day. Off season endurance and threshold was the focus with 1-2 days of sprints. A few weeks before early races VO2 work started.

Anyway, fact of the matter is I have tried it all. I have done some block work on one energy system at a time, with good success, but not for prolonged periods. I intend to work on L4 all winter in block fashion, three weeks in a row, with a week of recovery riding for week four. I will work on sprints once a week as well. Later in the winter I will include a tough long group ride.

This L4 block work is tough but it is going well so far. I hope I don't loose interest. I like the fact that my hours on the bike are much fewer, even though the work is harder.

I'll keep the board posted on my results.

Ti

TiMan - I like what you have to say, (also on doping) and I have a few questions for you.

I'm Cat 1 in Netherlands, and I am just starting my winter training - weekdays up to 2 hours 4/5 times a week on the trainer (Taxc flow - innacurate power readings but I can workout my levels from it) and a 3-4 hr ride on the weekend if the weather allows.

I never knew much about "block training" - but when I came up with my schedule for the coming months I instinctively set up 3 harder days per week consecutively, then a recovery day - then some time off (girlfriend intervals 😎 ) before an endurance ride on the sunday. This cycle I plan to repeat for 3 weeks in a row, and then take the last week of each month as a rest week, with little work done. Then I repeat the month block. So in a way each week is a block, and each month as a whole is a block.

As you've also raced Cat 1 for some time and I am new to this level I wondered what you made of such a strategy.

I'd also initially scheduled a lot of L5 and L6 work for the coming months - 1 or 2 sessions per week of 4-5 min intervals @ L5 and also sessions of exclusively intervals of 40 seconds @ L6.

I am now beginning to think that it is now way too early to be training in L5 and L6 and maybe I can better focus on L3/4 until January. Then in the months immediately prior to the beginning of the season to concentrate on L5 / L6. so basically I am planning to concentrate pretty much exclusively on 1hr + tempo rides in L3 and 20 minute intervals @ L4 for the next couple of months. Is this smart? Is this a sensible approach for a Cat 1?

Thanks for your advice.

whoawhoa said:

Norm, think about this way:

3on/2off=6 training days per 10.
1on/1off=5 training days per 10.
Assuming the off days are really off, and the "on" days have the same composition, that's a 20% increase in tss/day, and eventually a 20% increase in CTL. That's huge.

That's certainly another consideration, if you can get away with the 3on/2off swap. While I'm not so young anymore, I'm still soldily in my 30s. I generally recover from just about anything in 48 hours.

whoawhoa said:

Norm, think about this way:

3on/2off=6 training days per 10.
1on/1off=5 training days per 10.
Assuming the off days are really off, and the "on" days have the same composition, that's a 20% increase in tss/day, and eventually a 20% increase in CTL. That's huge.

That's assuming, of course, that the individual in question can handle a 20% increase in their chronic training load...which brings things back to what I see as the primary advantage of block training Morris/Golich-style, which is that it is auto-adjusting.

RapDaddyo said:

A problem with this discussion is that several fundamental questions are swirling around. On the one hand, we have the question of repeat days (e.g., 3on/3off). On the other hand, we have the question of efforts concentrated on one adaptation over an extended duration (e.g., VO2MAX efforts for 2 consecutive weeks). That's one of the problems with terms such as "block training." People use the term as though there is universal agreement on what the term means, but there is no such universal agreement. If somebody says, "Do you believe in block training?" my first question is, "What do you mean by block training?"

Good point. I suppose you really need to specify micro or macro block training. I've wondered about the same things. Suppose you do a 3 day block of L5 this week, then 3 days of L4 next week, etc etc? Does it work less effectively than the 4 week cycle? If 4 weeks, why not 5? 6? 16? Why stop at all? Why not block train L4 52 weeks a year?

Obviously there's a breaking point. To me that's the real value of the message boards, as opposed to others who find the most value in asking about max HR.

BullGod said:

TiMan - I like what you have to say, (also on doping) and I have a few questions for you.

I'm Cat 1 in Netherlands, and I am just starting my winter training - weekdays up to 2 hours 4/5 times a week on the trainer (Taxc flow - innacurate power readings but I can workout my levels from it) and a 3-4 hr ride on the weekend if the weather allows.

I never knew much about "block training" - but when I came up with my schedule for the coming months I instinctively set up 3 harder days per week consecutively, then a recovery day - then some time off (girlfriend intervals 😎 ) before an endurance ride on the sunday. This cycle I plan to repeat for 3 weeks in a row, and then take the last week of each month as a rest week, with little work done. Then I repeat the month block. So in a way each week is a block, and each month as a whole is a block.

As you've also raced Cat 1 for some time and I am new to this level I wondered what you made of such a strategy.

I'd also initially scheduled a lot of L5 and L6 work for the coming months - 1 or 2 sessions per week of 4-5 min intervals @ L5 and also sessions of exclusively intervals of 40 seconds @ L6.

I am now beginning to think that it is now way too early to be training in L5 and L6 and maybe I can better focus on L3/4 until January. Then in the months immediately prior to the beginning of the season to concentrate on L5 / L6. so basically I am planning to concentrate pretty much exclusively on 1hr + tempo rides in L3 and 20 minute intervals @ L4 for the next couple of months. Is this smart? Is this a sensible approach for a Cat 1?

Thanks for your advice.

Sounds good to me Bull.
This late Fall early Winter time give yourself a break from the grind of training on the road. Try some cyclocross.It really is fun and it's great conditioning all round. The races are short but they work L4 through L6 hard and in fact you spend almost no time at L2-3 so you maintain a very high level of fitness without hammering yourself week after week with structured L4 and L5 intervals.
Then after Christmas start working on building FTP with a bit more structure.
I wouldn't do any structured L5 work until a few weeks prior to your early road races. L6 can wait until you want to peak for a big event. Anerobic power is nowhere near as important as sustainable threshold power and VO2 max so don't be as concerned with L6 as you are with L5 and especially L4.
Work on your sprints year round but don't do as many in the winter as you would just prior to racing or in the "in season".

Believe it or not the best training info in book form is still Lemonds Book. If you combine Lemonds principles in training with Coggans power book you'll have all you need.
http://www.amazon.com/Lemonds-Complete-Book-Bicycling-Perigee/dp/0399515941/sr=8-1/qid=1162394845/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8065571-2674546?ie=UTF8&s=books

David Morris's book is worth looking at too, although I do not believe in working L5 before L4 like he does. You might want to try block training L4 and or L5 at some time after Christmas. I think classic Morris Block training will works well for L4 especially. If you block train L4 or L5 be sure to cut L2 volume just as you do when getting ready to race in early Spring.
http://www.amazon.com/Performance-Cycling-Training-Endurance-Speed/dp/0071410910/sr=1-7/qid=1162394896/ref=sr_1_7/102-8065571-2674546?ie=UTF8&s=books

Check out the articles on Adam Myersons site.They are really great. He follows Lemonds principles as well.
http://www.cycle-smart.com/

Also, check out these new rollers. Be sure to watch the video clips. WOW! what a great indoor training tool.
http://www.insideride.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=36

acoggan said:

That's assuming, of course, that the individual in question can handle a 20% increase in their chronic training load...which brings things back to what I see as the primary advantage of block training Morris/Golich-style, which is that it is auto-adjusting.

Yes
🙂

Also, time on the bike when block training L4 and L5 can (and needs) to be reduced to allow for proper recovery and adapation. This keeps motivation to train high.

RapDaddyo said:

In my earlier post, I intentionally put down a marker for a pretty intense training schedule. I don't know how many people log 6 hrs/wk of L4-L6 training time, but it's a pretty heavy load. And the allocations weren't off the wall either unless one is training for very short duration events. I think I could put forward a pretty good argument for the training volume (if one can ride 12 hrs/wk), the high-intensity minutes and the allocation of high-intensity efforts. But, I'm not sure I could put together an argument for a 3on/2off vs. alternating days training schedule or for a focus on one adaptation to the exclusion of all others (e.g., only L4s or only L5s). I think these issues rank way down the priority list after the ones above (total high-intensity time per week and allocation by targeted adaptation).

I missed this the first time around. I think it's a good point. But then if you use whoawhoa's logic, the higher amount of time at intensity is easier to accumulate if you can manage to get that extra day per 10.

Looking back at that post, yeah, 6 hours of L4+ training out of 12 is pretty aggressive to the point that I'm certain that's not within my realm right now. And you really bring up some good questions in that post. So much in fact that I'll quote it again because I think it's worth a look:

RapDaddyo said:

I agree with you to a point, but the discussion does raise an interesting question. Let's say that a well trained cyclist trains 12 hours a week for 4 weeks (48 hours). He uses his training time efficiently and attains a ratio of L4-L7 time to total time of 50%. Therefore, he trains in L4-L7 for 24 hours during the 4 week period. Let's further say that his allocation of L4-L7 time is 50%L4, 25%L5, 22.5%L6 and 2.5%L7. These assumptions have largely locked in a narrow range of TSS points per week, so total training stress is going to be similar almost no matter how the time is allocated each week. Now, does it matter whether he had an identical distribution of L4-L7 time each week? What if he did all of his L4 efforts, then all of his L5 efforts, then all of his L6 efforts, then all of his L7 efforts? What if he did the reverse?

With this training load, at least on a personal level, I would be forced to choose the path that would least likely cause me to burnout. That would be of paramount importance, dwarfing potential adaptations made during that time.

But this does raise new questions for me personally, at least as it pertains to how I'm currently training this offseason and how I intend to roll that into the pre-season and after.

normZurawski said:

That's fine, and I agree with it. But where in this thread do you see that?

Right... here:

Quoted post said:

Specifically, you have to bust your ass to make gains. The real issue is, if I bust my ass in this certain way, will it be better than if I bust my ass in that other way? In the end, it still hurts. And if you know for sure it's going to hurt, isn't it reasonable to try and maximize the gains you get from the hurt?

I am not sure that such payoffs exist, and yes, searching too hard for them strikes me as wishful thinking. The "silver bullets" I'm talking about aren't even the kind that make you lose 100 pounds and gain 150 W at threshold; I don't even think a, say, 5-10% reduction in time or perceived effort is possible by fooling around with "micro-optimization" of the sort we're talking about in this thread. The real gains are a function of your choice of parents, and months and years of stress and recovery. As long as you're getting that stress and recovery, do it whatever way suits you.

kmavm said:

The real gains are a function of your choice of parents, and months and years of stress and recovery. As long as you're getting that stress and recovery, do it whatever way suits you.

This ain't entirely politically correct, but I do concur to a large extent.

It's not that difficult to lay down a nice training program on a sheet of paper. The real work begins when one starts facing difficulties. And that's where coaching begins. Adapting training means based on specific issues, problems and succes too.

If one never has any issue, no plateau no injury, no strange *unexplained* fatigue. No insomnia no articulation pain, no motivation issues no nothing. Then just about any training program as long as it's well balanced and smart will work.

kmavm said:

I am not sure that such payoffs exist, and yes, searching too hard for them strikes me as wishful thinking. The "silver bullets" I'm talking about aren't even the kind that make you lose 100 pounds and gain 150 W at threshold; I don't even think a, say, 5-10% reduction in time or perceived effort is possible by fooling around with "micro-optimization" of the sort we're talking about in this thread. The real gains are a function of your choice of parents, and months and years of stress and recovery. As long as you're getting that stress and recovery, do it whatever way suits you.

Maybe you're right, but there's a difference between wishful thinking and due dilligence. I'm doing my due dilligence to make sure I'm not making a basic bone-headed mistake. Because it may be the case that you're wrong - I don't know, I'm not saying you are. I'm just asking, doesn't it make sense to do some level of investigation? Presmably you've come up with your philosophy on training by some process. This is nothing more than that.

I recently read a comment about some guy who toiled though 17 years of racing before he found Monique Ryan's book on nutrition for endurance athletes, which pointed him in a direction he hadn't been able to stumble on by himself. If you never stop asking how you can do things better, then you might be stuck in that 17 year slog.

normZurawski said:

this does raise new questions for me personally, at least as it pertains to how I'm currently training this offseason and how I intend to roll that into the pre-season and after.

Good, that was my intent. My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but was intended to distinguish between the different types of issues we have going on in this discussion. We have what I think are macro issues in a training plan (total volume, total high-intensity volume and allocation of high-intensity volume) and we have what I think are micro issues in a training plan (3on/2off vs. alternate days). I'm frankly not sure where to put the issue of focusing on one adaptation at a time vs. work on multiple adaptations simultaneously. I don't know if it is a macro issue or a micro issue because I am not aware of either scientific principles or empirical evidence in support of either of the two approaches (need help from Andy or Ric or biker-linz here). I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying I don't know if it matters.

normZurawski said:

Maybe you're right, but there's a difference between wishful thinking and due dilligence. I'm doing my due dilligence to make sure I'm not making a basic bone-headed mistake. Because it may be the case that you're wrong - I don't know, I'm not saying you are.

I agree with your "due dilligence" comment, and you're right that there are some slam-dunk wins out there, some of them surprising. As soon as I wrote my post, I'd wished I'd included nutrition as one of the ways you can be "stupid."

My skepticism about "silver bullets" should in no way be construed as discouraging the continued search for them, if that's your bag. I've just spent enough mental energy wondering if workout X, or sandwich workout X between workouts Y and Z, or whatever, will be the key to an extra 10 Watts! that I've decided to spend that energy where it counts: telling my quads to "shut up!" in the final minutes of an L4 workout 🙂. Happy riding...

RapDaddyo said:

I'm frankly not sure where to put the issue of focusing on one adaptation at a time vs. work on multiple adaptations simultaneously. I don't know if it is a macro issue or a micro issue because I am not aware of either scientific principles or empirical evidence in support of either of the two approaches (need help from Andy or Ric or biker-linz here).

To me it's more of a meso/macro issue.

Because to be successful with such a concept, one has to look way further than the tip of his nose. One 6week mesocycle of block training takes a considerable amount of space in the phase to which this mesocycle belongs.

A word on being "able" to recover from block training. The KEY to any training program is recovery and Morris really "harps" on this when block training.

Remember guys, in the block training that Morris advocates, the type we should mainly be talking about here, the total training hours per week are very low at least when focusing on L4 and 5. When Morris Block trains L2 the hours are much higher.

MAYBE IT IS A LITTLE MAGIC BULLET.
Morris thinks that if you want to see the biggest and fastest gains in any one particular element then focus pretty much 98% of your energy trying to improve that system**** and THEN MAKE DAMN SURE you allow for enough rcovery days to recover and supercompensate from this load. Morris and Carmichael both say that they see bigger and faster gains with block training AS LONG AS ENOUGH RECOVERY TIME IS ALLOWED FOR. So if you can't recovery from three days in a row then either take another day off or do only two "on" two "off"....or whatever you need to do to see gains on the power meter.

Funny, many of the fellas on this thead think that Morris's appraoch is "too much" for the average guy. Most of the guys that I have talked to about this approach think it is too little and they point to so many days of the week basically doing nothing. Morris says that many people scoff at the low training volume but they don't undertand that the intensity warrents this.
You guys at least understand intensity and the load it can place on the bodys recuperative powers but I think you forget that the number of hours you log on the saddle in this approach are quite low. This brings me to a Lemond quote..."You can train hard or you can train long but you can't do both without drugs".
Most guys take a middle ground approach and do some volume and some intensity but why not try uping the intensity and cutting the volume while focusing in on one energy system and what better one to focus on than L4 because we all know that FTP is the key to road racing.

Here is an example from Morris's book for L4 focusing. You work your way up to MORE L4 work each week, or start at a higher level as your abilty to recover dictates, but few can do much more than an hour total at FTP in any one day(unless you are on drugs and I won't get into that on this thread)

Each day in a block of 2-3 days is a bit easier in Morris's approach. This gives the rider a mental break and thus helps him complete the block, but it isn't necessary.

Now I might do one hour non stop of L4 work on day one of a block and then 3X20 on day two and then 4 X15 on day three but others may never be able to tolerate this and so you have to adjust theings based on what you can recover from.

ALSO, I might be able to do a L4 focus of three weeks "on" followed by a recovery week for three or more months but many might only be able to tolerate one or two three week L4 sessions per year without at least "mental" burn out. You have to play it by ear. In my opinion as long as yolu are getting gains in L4 power then continue on.....until you prep for your early races with L5 and some L6 work.

MORRIS L4 Block Focus

Day 1... 3 X 10min
Day 2.... lead out intervals and then 4 X 8 minutes. Lead outs are basically sprints in the saddle from a cadence of about 60 and for 10-30seconds. Well you can't actually sprint for more than about 15-20 seconds but you know what I mean. He includes these so you don't get that flat feeling from doing so much L4 work.
Day 3....Recovery ride or off
Day 4....RR or off
Day 5....3 X12
Day 6....Race or 3 X10
Day 7....4 X 8 climbing. He puts the climbing L4 work late in a block as he says riders can generate and hold the required power better while climbing and one is getting fatigued at this point in the block so that makes sense.
Day 8...RR or off
Day 9...RR or off
Day 10..1 hour L2

MORRIS L5 Focus.....Personally I don't do L5 intervals of less than 4 minutes so with me I would keep the interval times pretty even maybe going down from 5 minute intervals to 4 minute intervals, but I would reduce time at VO2 from say 30 minutes on day one to 20 minutes on day 3. However, intervals of 1-3 minutes can be effective in boosting VO2 max and power at VO2 if little rest is taken between efforts and in that way you reach VO2 quickly on each effort and manage to log a decent aamount of time at VO2 Max.

Day 1...4 min L5 intervals
Day 2...2 min L 5
Day 3...OFF
Day 4...1 hour Zone 2

Day 6...4 min L5
Day 7...3 min L5
Day 8...1 min L5
Day 8...Recovery ride or off
Day 9...RR or off
Day 10..one hour L2

TRAIN REALY REALLY HARD and then allow for recovery time. Most guys can train hard but very few allow for enough recovery time based on their own abilty to recover. WAY too many simply try to copy what others do and worse yet what the pro's do. By the way, the pro's can recover well and quickly for many reasons not the least of which is testosterone/steroids, growth hormone and EPO.

This is the beauty of the Morris approach. It allows you to train really hard because you do recover.

kmavm said:

My skepticism about "silver bullets" should in no way be construed as discouraging the continued search for them, if that's your bag. I've just spent enough mental energy wondering if workout X, or sandwich workout X between workouts Y and Z, or whatever, will be the key to an extra 10 Watts! that I've decided to spend that energy where it counts: telling my quads to "shut up!" in the final minutes of an L4 workout 🙂. Happy riding...

I enjoy the discussion, yes. But I also agree with your assessment that when the rubber literally meets the road, no amount of thinking will get the pedals to move. I'm reminded of that when I throw my leg over the trainer at 5:15 AM 3 days every week.

normZurawski said:

I enjoy the discussion, yes. But I also agree with your assessment that when the rubber literally meets the road, no amount of thinking will get the pedals to move. I'm reminded of that when I throw my leg over the trainer at 5:15 AM 3 days every week.

That's well said.

TiMan said:

MAYBE IT IS A LITTLE MAGIC BULLET.
Morris thinks that if you want to see the biggest and fastest gains in any one particular element then focus pretty much 98% of your energy trying to improve that system**** and THEN MAKE DAMN SURE you allow for enough rcovery days to recover and supercompensate from this load.

I don't see that as a magic bullet though. Hard work+recovery=fitness. Where's the magic?

TiMan said:

Funny, many of the fellas on this thead think that Morris's appraoch is "too much" for the average guy.

My only exposure to Morris's specific plans are what you posted below, but that looked pretty darn easy to me. I promise this isn't a "I train harder than you" thing, because that's not a debate I would win with most people, and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter (because training is for people who suck:p).

acoggan said:

That's assuming, of course, that the individual in question can handle a 20% increase in their chronic training load...which brings things back to what I see as the primary advantage of block training Morris/Golich-style, which is that it is auto-adjusting.

Well, sure. Either huge benefits or...huge tailspin. :eek:

By the way, what do you mean by "auto-adjusting?"