Boeing bets the house on CF.....

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence.

Don't count on that. Rumor I heard was that they can bend the
prototype's wings so far above the fuselage that they almost touch.

Simply incredible if true.
\\paul

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real,

what does that /mean/ exactly?

Quoted message said:

I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these dreamliners
on contract already,

still have competition from airbus though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus#Competition_with_Boeing

Quoted message said:

but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

why am i getting deja vu for all the bleating about cf forks all those
years ago? and where are we now? "ubiquity" is the word.

jim beam said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real,

what does that /mean/ exactly?

Quoted message said:

I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these dreamliners
on contract already,

still have competition from airbus though:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus#Competition_with_Boeing

Quoted message said:

but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

why am i getting deja vu for all the bleating about cf forks all those
years ago? and where are we now? "ubiquity" is the word.

I am wondering about static buildup caused by all that carbon fibre

jim beam said:

Callistus Valerius said:

So if you fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight
that isn't in a dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

why am i getting deja vu for all the bleating about cf forks
all those years ago? and where are we now? "ubiquity" is the
word.

I somehow doubt that fifty years from now, carbon forks and
Dreamliners will have displayed the longevity or earned the respect
that 531 forks and DC-3s have over the last two or three
generations.

Sooner or later, people's CFRP forks are going to go the way of all
plastic [censored], with the inevitable failures carrying more serious
implications than the cracks in Chevrolet dashboards. And somebody--
maybe the future equivalent of today's African airlines that fly old
Soviet transports-- will figure out exactly how long it takes for the
plastic binders in Boeing's CFRP to degrade. Heck, it could be
American operators coping with the economic hardships yet to come.
But I am sure that the relative difficulty of inspecting CFRP
airframes will come home to roost in some way.

Chalo

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:08:24 -0000, Chalo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sooner or later, people's CFRP forks are going to go the way of all
plastic [censored], with the inevitable failures carrying more serious
implications than the cracks in Chevrolet dashboards.

Hahaha.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real, I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these dreamliners
on contract already, but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
The Airbus planes have been using CF for a while. In fact, the Nov
2001 Long Island Airbus crash had carbon fiber failure due to
excessive rudder input.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon
fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent
than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if
you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real,

what does that /mean/ exactly?

Quoted message said:

I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is
only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these
dreamliners
on contract already,

still have competition from airbus
though:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus#Competition_with_Boeing

Quoted message said:

but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

why am i getting deja vu for all the bleating about cf forks all those
years ago? and where are we now? "ubiquity" is the word.

I am wondering about static buildup caused by all that carbon fibre

I'm worried about what the increased atmospheric carbon content from all
those Dreamliners flying around will do to global warming!

And, steel IS real. My steel-framed bike is as real as anything else.
It's natural, too. Unfortunately, though, it's not organic, but the paint
on it partially is so I guess I can still sleep at night.

Cal

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real, I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these dreamliners
on contract already, but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

Not a lot of aircraft anything is steel..Too heavy. Titanium in some
tubing and some high temp areas. Aluminum and carbon is just a better
choice. Airbus has had an aircraft with a composite tail and other
flight surfaces for a long time. Same for military aircraft like the
_F-18 series. Carpet fiber on aircraft is old news and Boeing sees a
way to make these aircract light and strong and more
efficient..something that needs to happen cuz fuel prices aren't going
to come down anytime soon.

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real, I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these dreamliners
on contract already, but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

Not a lot of aircraft anything is steel..Too heavy. Titanium in some
tubing and some high temp areas. Aluminum and carbon is just a better
choice. Airbus has had an aircraft with a composite tail and other
flight surfaces for a long time. Same for military aircraft like the
_F-18 series. Carpet fiber on aircraft is old news and Boeing sees a
way to make these aircract light and strong and more
efficient..something that needs to happen cuz fuel prices aren't going
to come down anytime soon.

What needs to be done is to replace the short range flights with
high-speed rail. The high-speed rail would be more economically
efficient (especially an inter-modal system that could replace most
driving on freeways), have a lower environmental impact, and would avoid
the need to wait in line for hours to be examined by TSA goons [1].

[1] Not to mention the use of the "watch" and "no fly" lists as weapons
to punish political opponents.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Callistus Valerius said:

Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes.

Quoted message said:

From the Wikipedia article on titanium: "An estimated 58 tons

are used in the Boeing 777, 43 in the 747, 18 in the 737,
24 in the Airbus A340, 17 in the A330 and 12 in the A320."

Tom Ace

Callistus Valerius said:

Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes.

-from the Wikipedia article on titanium: "An estimated 58 tons
are used in the Boeing 777, 43 in the 747, 18 in the 737,
24 in the Airbus A340, 17 in the A330 and 12 in the A320."

Tom Ace

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon

fiber.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact

resistent than

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real, I think Boeing skipped steel,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these

dreamliners

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on contract already, but they still don't have a flying one yet. So

if you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
The Airbus planes have been using CF for a while. In fact, the Nov
2001 Long Island Airbus crash had carbon fiber failure due to
excessive rudder input.

The failure was not entirely due to the part being made of CFRP. American
Airlines did a cheap repair on that plane installing a used rudder from a
non FAA approved source outside the US (from France, I think). The rudder
was not properly inspected prior to installation or during it's short
usage before the unfortunate crash.

http://www.globalaviationlaw.com/news_articles/2001/20011219_n.htm

At the time of the crash the FAA only required visual inspection of the
Airbus 300-600 rudders. After the accident a number of these planes were
inspected with ultrasound and found to have hidden defects in the CFRP
rudders.

http://www.globalaviationlaw.com/news_articles/2001/20011210_lat.htm

http://www.globalaviationlaw.com/news_articles/2001/20011119_nyt.htm

I've been told by folks at Boeing that for every 1000 Lbs. removed from a
commercial airliner there is a savings of $1 million during the plane's
lifetime. This figure probably includes increased earning power because of
more weight capacity.

CFRP decreases the overall weight of the plane but probably shortens it's
life expectancy.

Similar planes, the Boeing 737 were designed for a 35 year life span. This
plane was originally built for use in flights ranging up to 1500 miles.
It's the number of landings that take the toll on aircraft life. These
planes have been used mostly for short flights sometimes taking off and
landing 10 times a day. This is why many airlines are switching to the
smaller, cheaper regional jet liners.

I flew round trip once on the shortest scheduled flight in the country -
SFO to San Jose - 50 miles (AirCal). It was actually an SF to Burbank
flight with a stop at San Jose. We flew down to San Jose, had a lunch
meeting and flew back up to SFO on the next flight. I've also flown from
SFO to Oakland - 11 miles.

Chas.

"Tom Ace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes.

Quoted message said:

From the Wikipedia article on titanium: "An estimated 58 tons

are used in the Boeing 777, 43 in the 747, 18 in the 737,
24 in the Airbus A340, 17 in the A330 and 12 in the A320."

Tom Ace

Those figures may be the before manufacture weight of the titanium. I'll
check with one of my buddies who still does work with Boeing.

The flap tracks and engine mounts are the largest parts made of titanium
on an airliner.

Chas.

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real, I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these dreamliners
on contract already, but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

IIRC, it was CF which bankrupted Rolls-Royce in the 70's, trying to
get it to work for turbine blades. The problem was it couldn't
withstand bird strikes. Hopefully CF has got better or the birds have
got worse since then....

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact
resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence.

Paul Myron Hobson said:

Don't count on that. Rumor I heard was that they can bend the
prototype's wings so far above the fuselage that they almost touch.
Simply incredible if true.

I can't find any reference on that.
? Sorta counterintuitive...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact
resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if
you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence.

Paul Myron Hobson said:

Don't count on that. Rumor I heard was that they can bend the
prototype's wings so far above the fuselage that they almost touch.
Simply incredible if true.

I can't find any reference on that.
? Sorta counterintuitive...

I qualified my statement as "rumor that I heard."

Point is, I seriously doubt Boeing will be manufacturing airplanes that
fall apart in turbulence (something that is ubiquitous in aviation).

\\aul

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon
fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact
resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if
you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real, I think Boeing skipped steel,
and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is
only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these
dreamliners
on contract already, but they still don't have a flying one yet. So
if you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

Not a lot of aircraft anything is steel..Too heavy. Titanium in some
tubing and some high temp areas. Aluminum and carbon is just a better
choice. Airbus has had an aircraft with a composite tail and other
flight surfaces for a long time. Same for military aircraft like the
_F-18 series. Carpet fiber on aircraft is old news and Boeing sees a
way to make these aircract light and strong and more
efficient..something that needs to happen cuz fuel prices aren't going
to come down anytime soon.

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

What needs to be done is to replace the short range flights with
high-speed rail. The high-speed rail would be more economically
efficient (especially an inter-modal system that could replace most
driving on freeways), have a lower environmental impact, and would avoid
the need to wait in line for hours to be examined by TSA goons [1].

-snip-

Then we can wait overnight on a train platform instead of an airport
concourse. That'll be better.

Or, as the CTA last week, sit in a 95-degree stopped train for an hour
or two instead of waiting on the tarmac. I can see the improvement already!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:42:41 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact
resistent than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence.

Paul Myron Hobson said:

Don't count on that. Rumor I heard was that they can bend the
prototype's wings so far above the fuselage that they almost touch.
Simply incredible if true.

I can't find any reference on that.
? Sorta counterintuitive...

Dear Andrew,

"Boeing has completed static testing of a three-quarter wingbox, but
engineers are still considering whether to limit testing of the full
wing to a 150% load limit held for 3 sec. of to continue bending it to
see when it breaks. "There's a raging debate within the engineering
team to see if we should break it or not," says [787 General Manager
Mike] Bair."

"Breaking it isn't necessary for certification, but Bair says the wing
is so strong and flexible that there's been talk that maybe it could
be bent far enough for the wingtips to touch above the fuselage—or
come quite close."

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/06/the-new-boeing-.html

Or just google for boeing + wings + bend + carbon and browse through
132,000 hits.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

"Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Boeing is building it's new plane, the dreamliner, with carbon fiber.
The wings, fuselage. The cf must be consiberably more impact resistent
than
bike frames, or this would be suicide for Boeing. Hell of a note, if you
looked out the window and saw the wing suddenly break off in some
turbulence. Even though steel is real, I think Boeing skipped steel, and
went straight to aluminum. Titanium, is too expensive and I think is only
used in military planes. Boeing has sold a boat load of these dreamliners
on contract already, but they still don't have a flying one yet. So if
you
fly a lot, you might have trouble finding a flight that isn't in a
dreamliner when they start filling the skies.

Will the plane come in nude natural carbon?