General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Bone Marrow Biopsy

Started by Pmb · · Last activity · 28 posts · 4,077 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
19 June 2004
Last activity
25 June 2004
Original author
Pmb
Posts
28
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
4,077
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 21–28 of 28
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Gauge said:

    Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I am not a doctor, but a patient that has had 5 (sorry I
    can't compete with your 8, but close enough :-)).

    I'm afraid that I really do have to disagree with you on
    this (respectfully, of course). I have had many
    discussions with other patients on this topic, and have
    also read many discussions on the topic at the Multiple
    Myeloma Listserver. Please understand that I didn't record
    the level of pain that each person experienced and I don't
    have a tally ... I am basing my conclusions on my memory
    of these discussions over the years ... and, of course,
    upon my own experience.

    Did you have medication before this or did the doc simply
    walk into the room and start drilling? What makes you
    think that when you're comparing yourself to everyone else
    that you're holding all other variables constant. E.g. a
    dab of EMLA cream on the area before adding lidocaine and
    demerol before the procedure starts can drop the pain from
    a 10 to a 5.


    No meds at all. Just Lidocaine, and lot's of it.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    It really does have a lot to do with the practictioner's
    technique and upon the individual's threshold for pain
    tolerance.

    The term "pain threshold" is pretty much meaningless until
    it is actually define and a procedure is devised to
    actually measure it. Perhaps there are a few people who
    have a low density of nerves in the place where the
    drilling is done. Perhaps anestesia helps some and not
    others. Anticipation anxiety plays a large role in how
    much pain the patient experiences too.

    Quoted message said:

    You are welcome to your opinion, but it certainly isn't
    accurate (IMHO) to say "Bone marrow biopsies are famous
    for being extremly painful."

    I;m not basing this on opinion. I'm basing this on
    numerical fact. Go the the Leukemia and Lymphoma Societies
    discussion board and look around. You'll notice that
    everyone there who had a BMB has experienced large levels
    of pain.

    Quoted message said:

    Take a look at
    cancernetwork.comn0004p.htm

    Well then I'm basing my statements on numerical fact also.
    Take a look at
    listserv.acor.orgmyeloma.html , search on
    "BMB" "Bone Marrow Biopsy", and "Bone Marrow" and I think
    you will find almost as many people who feel the pain is
    tolerable as those that feel it isn't. And I don't think
    you'll find very many who describe it as excruciating ...
    some will say "very painful" or something like that.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is a study of an analgesic where patients were
    surveyed on their experience during BMBs before and after
    using it. Note the average "pain" score of 3.97 (scale 1
    to 5) across 26 patients with no meds.

    It says

    " 3.97 for previous procedures. The previous procedures
    were sometimes conducted with ------->analgesics,<----------
    sometimes without."

    By the way, 3.97 is nothing to sneeze at since that is a
    7.1 on a scale from 1 to 10. Not to mention that people
    can't accurately gauge pain with numbers in a non-
    subjective fashion. And that's a 7 out of 10 with pain
    meds. Pain meds don't work the same on everyone.


    Never said it was pain-free or that it was something to
    sneeze at. But
    3.97 is an average across 26 patients. Seems
    reasonable to me.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Just curious ... have you had all 8 done by the same
    person?

    The first was done by a an oncologist from my home town.
    He just gave me a shot of lidocaine and started drilling.
    It was a nightmare. I can tolerate pain pretty well but
    that was overwhelming. It was the first time I ever
    screamed from pain in the last 25 years. I had to have
    anotherone the next day at Dana Farber. I begged them to
    give me as much drugs as theyu could. They gave me
    demerol. That was a different doc. The next six were done
    by the same person with differing levels of pain, ranging
    from 7 to 9. I did some research during this time to
    learn how to lesson the pain. I learned that anxiety
    increases the pain. I also learned that EMLA cream can
    kill a lot of the pain. The last one was a piece of cake.
    The third one was kind of funny since the doctor said "Uh
    oh!" It was his first one and he thought he didn't hit
    the bone. He actually did but he didn't know it right
    off, hence the "Uh oh!" And, of course, I remind him of
    that occasionaly. :-)

    Pmb


    I have had nothing more than lidocaine every time I've had
    one. Like I said, it's not something I'd volunteer to do or
    go out of my way to do, but I find it tolerable. I've never
    had to scream or yell ... the most I've done is wince. I
    have more pain when the lidocaine wears off and I roll over
    on it that night while sleeping. As I said, this has a lot
    to do with the practitioner's technique and I think someone
    else said it has a lot to do with the amount of lidocaine
    used. It's a very interesting procedure as it results in a
    wide variety of experiences.

    Larry

  2. Larry <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Well then I'm basing my statements on numerical fact also.

    Question: What is your point? I said that BMBs were not
    painful to some people but some people experience a lot of
    pain where most fall into this later group. Is it the "most"
    that you disagree with or do you claim that most people feel
    no pain at all?

    I based that on my personal experience speaking with fellow
    leukemia patients over the last few years at the LLS forum.
    However, using personal experiences is not an accurate
    method of collecting accurate information. I don't recall
    many people who said they didn't feel much discomfort and I
    do recall many people stating that it was terribly painful.
    They may have used different adverbs than I do to describe
    the same thing but that is another story all together.
    Because they didn't use the adverbs I use is of little
    importance. I say "Terribly painful." Many of the women I
    speak to say that childbirth was less painful. To me that
    means terribly painful even if they didn't use that term.

    Is this all about ratios (pain to no pain) and adverbs
    (painful/horribly painful)?

    If you hold that BMBs are not considered painful then that
    seems quite incorrect to me. Bone Marrow Biopsies are well
    know for being painful.
    E.g.

    From the "Southern Medical Associates" --
    sma.orgdunlop.pdf

    "Bone marrow aspirate and biopsy is universally recognized
    as being painful"

    Quoted message said:

    I have had nothing more than lidocaine every time I've had
    one. Like I said, it's not something I'd volunteer to do
    or go out of my way to do, but I find it tolerable. I've
    never had to scream or yell ... the most I've done is
    wince. I have more pain when the lidocaine wears off and I
    roll over on it that night while sleeping.

    That tells me is that you didn't experience the same pain I
    did. It does not automatically hold that you have a higher
    tolerance of pain. The phrase "higher tolerance" is quite
    vauge. If by this phrase you mean "I experience the exact
    same pain you do but I don't let it bother me" then that is
    very difference than "I don't experience the exact pain that
    you do under identical circumstances" - Tolerance means to
    experience and to put up with. Anybody can have a high
    tolerate pain if they don't feel it. But its quite
    impossible for anyone on Earth to claim that they know what
    the pain I experience is like. Just because they have the
    same procedure it doesn't mean they have the same pain.

    Pmb

  3. Gauge said:

    Larry <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Well then I'm basing my statements on numerical fact also.

    Question: What is your point? I said that BMBs were not
    painful to some people but some people experience a lot of
    pain where most fall into this later group. Is it the
    "most" that you disagree with or do you claim that most
    people feel no pain at all?


    My point is that I agree that BMBs were "not painful to some
    people". Your earlier statement was "I know of only one
    person who said it wasn't bad". Big difference. Sounds like
    we're in agreement now.

    Quoted message said:

    I based that on my personal experience speaking with
    fellow leukemia patients over the last few years at the
    LLS forum. However, using personal experiences is not an
    accurate method of collecting accurate information. I
    don't recall many people who said they didn't feel much
    discomfort and I do recall many people stating that it
    was terribly painful. They may have used different
    adverbs than I do to describe the same thing but that is
    another story all together. Because they didn't use the
    adverbs I use is of little importance. I say "Terribly
    painful." Many of the women I speak to say that
    childbirth was less painful. To me that means terribly
    painful even if they didn't use that term.

    I agree on the subjectivity of people. Can't imagine how
    someone could think a BMB is worse than childbirth. Only
    possible explanation is a botched up BMB or bad technique.

    Quoted message said:


    Is this all about ratios (pain to no pain) and adverbs
    (painful/horribly painful)?

    If you hold that BMBs are not considered painful then that
    seems quite incorrect to me. Bone Marrow Biopsies are well
    know for being painful.
    E.g.

    Never said that.

    Quoted message said:


    From the "Southern Medical Associates" --
    sma.orgdunlop.pdf

    "Bone marrow aspirate and biopsy is universally recognized
    as being painful"


    I agree. Never said it wasn't.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    I have had nothing more than lidocaine every time I've had
    one. Like I said, it's not something I'd volunteer to do
    or go out of my way to do, but I find it tolerable. I've
    never had to scream or yell ... the most I've done is
    wince. I have more pain when the lidocaine wears off and I
    roll over on it that night while sleeping.

    That tells me is that you didn't experience the same pain
    I did. It does not automatically hold that you have a
    higher tolerance of pain. The phrase "higher tolerance" is
    quite vauge. If by this phrase you mean "I experience the
    exact same pain you do but I don't let it bother me" then
    that is very difference than "I don't experience the exact
    pain that you do under identical circumstances" -
    Tolerance means to experience and to put up with. Anybody
    can have a high tolerate pain if they don't feel it. But
    its quite impossible for anyone on Earth to claim that
    they know what the pain I experience is like. Just because
    they have the same procedure it doesn't mean they have the
    same pain.

    Pmb


    Larry

  4. "Gauge" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Larry <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Well then I'm basing my statements on numerical
    fact also.

    Question: What is your point? I said that BMBs were not
    painful to some people but some people experience a lot of
    pain where most fall into this later group. Is it the
    "most" that you disagree with or do you claim that most
    people feel no pain at all?

    I based that on my personal experience speaking with
    fellow leukemia patients over the last few years at the
    LLS forum. However, using personal experiences is not an
    accurate method of collecting accurate information. I
    don't recall many people who said they didn't feel much
    discomfort and I do recall many people stating that it
    was terribly painful. They may have used different
    adverbs than I do to describe the same thing but that is
    another story all together. Because they didn't use the
    adverbs I use is of little importance. I say "Terribly
    painful." Many of the women I speak to say that
    childbirth was less painful. To me that means terribly
    painful even if they didn't use that term.

    Is this all about ratios (pain to no pain) and adverbs
    (painful/horribly painful)?

    If you hold that BMBs are not considered painful then that
    seems quite incorrect to me. Bone Marrow Biopsies are well
    know for being painful.
    E.g.

    From the "Southern Medical Associates" --
    sma.orgdunlop.pdf

    "Bone marrow aspirate and biopsy is universally recognized
    as being painful"

    But that's untrue. I'm part of the Universe, I have lots of
    patients who have bone marrows, and I ask them
    all.........some find it painful, most do not.

  5. Steph said:


    But that's untrue. I'm part of the Universe, I have lots of
    patients who have bone marrows, and I ask them
    all.........some find it painful, most do not.

    But people must be very tough to survive in that snow
    covered piece of nowhere you live on!
    🙂

  6. "_PT_" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steph said:


    But that's untrue. I'm part of the Universe, I have lots
    of patients who have bone marrows, and I ask them
    all.........some find it painful, most


    do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not.

    But people must be very tough to survive in that snow
    covered piece of nowhere you live on!
    🙂

    If you knew anything about Vancouver Island, _PT_, you would
    realise how stupid that comment is. But you don't, so you
    don't. It doesn't surprise me. You seem to be an expert in
    many areas in which you haven't bothered with the facts.

    There, I've done the work for you
    islands.bc.caclimate.html

  7. Steph said:


    "_PT_" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Steph said:


    But that's untrue. I'm part of the Universe, I have lots
    of patients who have bone marrows, and I ask them
    all.........some find it painful, most


    do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not.

    But people must be very tough to survive in that snow
    covered piece of nowhere you live on!
    🙂

    If you knew anything about Vancouver Island, _PT_, you
    would realise how stupid that comment is. But you don't, so
    you don't. It doesn't surprise me. You seem to be an expert
    in many areas in which you haven't bothered with the facts.

    There, I've done the work for you
    islands.bc.caclimate.html

    Know the internet convention of the smile? That's what the
    🙂 is doing just below my message! Your sense of humor and
    your bad manners don't improve with time... Have considered
    testosterone patches? 🙂 🙂 🙂

    But there is a FACT beneath my humorous comment! Emigrants
    are usualy tougher and boulder people compared with their
    starving contryman that had no courage/drive to seek a
    better life away from home. You should acknowledge that and
    feel proud about it instead of being rude and insulting!

    There was another intention when changing to humor in
    replying you in this thread -- making you realize that you
    don't have to persist in having the last word in a subject
    you aren't an expert in. I've done thousands of aspirations
    and biopsies and still do some almost everyday. You don't
    (unless radiotherpy is very odd in your place).

    And Vancouver Island IS a piece of nowhere, as any other
    place away from Europe (25 and growing!)
    🙂

  8. "_PT_" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    But there is a FACT beneath my humorous comment! Emigrants
    are usualy tougher and boulder people compared with their
    starving contryman that had no courage/drive to seek a
    better life away from home. You should acknowledge that
    and feel proud about it instead of being rude and
    insulting!

    Well, I admit you are an expert on rude and insulting, true.

    Quoted message said:

    There was another intention when changing to humor in
    replying you in this thread -- making you realize that you
    don't have to persist in having the last word in a subject
    you aren't an expert in. I've done thousands of
    aspirations and biopsies and still do some almost
    everyday. You don't (unless radiotherpy is very odd in
    your place).

    I've done hundreds, not thousands, but I don't do them now
    because I have a very slick pathologist who does them
    better. I guess the real issue is how many of your thousands
    were indicated.... It's your place which seems to have odd
    "radiotherapy". We have radiation oncology here.

    Quoted message said:

    And Vancouver Island IS a piece of nowhere, as any other
    place away from Europe (25 and growing!)
    🙂

    As a European, I am ashamed of your parochialism

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.