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Brake idea (inspired by New Coker thread)

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rec.sport.unicycling
Published
28 January 2006
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30 January 2006
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steveyo
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  1. Has anyone ever considered a brake that works directly on the crown of
    the tire? Say a lever which presses a roller-type braking mechanism
    down onto the rubber spinning near/under the seat, at the top of the
    fork. The roller, like a spinning spool, could have a variable
    resistance, to strengthen or weaken the force.

    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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  2. 2 problems I can see straight away, 1 is the variable braking force that
    the tyre offers to the mechanism, any variability in the tyre thickness
    or profile will make a non-uniform force as the tyre rotates. Also,
    it'll wear the tyre out twice as fast as a normal braking system.

    Loose.

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  3. Here is a possible arrangement.

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  4. Loosemoose said:

    2 problems I can see straight away, 1 is the variable braking force that
    the tyre offers to the mechanism, any variability in the tyre thickness
    or profile will make a non-uniform force as the tyre rotates. Also,
    it'll wear the tyre out twice as fast as a normal braking system.

    Loose.

    Well, for discussion, I'm considering my Radial 360's tire (smooth,
    round-topped road tyre, and the brake would need to have a larger or
    equal raduis to the tire's cross section.

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    steveyo

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  5. Some old rod-brake roadsters (dutch bikes) had brakes sort of like this,
    that pushed on the tyre. If you value your life, never borrow one of
    these bikes off anyone. They're terrible. You're not going to get
    progressive braking by pushing against something that is deformable
    (the tyre), the tyre pushes in when you brake and does weirdy stuff.
    You get extra tyre wear and if you're riding in the rain the brake bit
    can grab stuff off the tyre and push it in, causing a puncture.

    What advantage does it have over a normal brake, it seems more complex,
    with the variable resistance bit, and relies on a bunch of custom parts
    rather than just off the shelf bike bits. Also, the simplicity relies a
    bit on the lever coming out somewhere nice to hold, or else you're
    going to need to extend that with another part going up high enough to
    grab on. It also looks like being quite big and heavy, you're going to
    have to build those levers quite strong to make them not bend when
    you're pulling sideways on them all the time, and when all the braking
    force is transmitted into sideways force on the lever.

    The other problem is that I think from your diagram, resistance to the
    roller spinning will cause the front of the lever to move upwards,
    pushing the brake on harder, and presumably making the resistance
    change? Like when you have a v-brake setup that isn't toed in, and it
    just goes on very suddenly, because the braking action causes the brake
    to turn on.

    I think tyre crossection and bumpyness is likely to make a difference
    even on a smooth tyre, on a rim brake you can notice tiny rim
    differences, which are far smaller than the kind of bumps you'll get in
    a tyre, especially one that you've worn down unevenly, as is often the
    case on unicycles.

    What problem is it designed to fix?

    Joe

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  6. I just posted this in the Coker Design thread, and it seems more
    appropriate here:

    I hope this isn't too far off-topic because it's mostly fantasy and not
    a real suggestion for coker design. But I wonder if some of the
    brilliant minds on this forum could develop something like this.......a
    mass-adjusting braking system. Wouldn't it be great if there was a
    practical way of combining traditional braking with something that
    kicked the center of gravity simultaneously backward (or maybe a little
    sooner than simultaneously) to take some of the unforgiving face-plant
    tendencies of braking out of play? I know that the body through leaning
    is the organic way to do this, but I have yet to use a brake for any
    purpose other than a very slight reliever for my legs on long descents
    (and I've had some scary moments letting the brake off, too). It seems
    like if there was a counter-weight mechanically connected to the brake
    handle that moved back when you applied the brake, and came back
    forward when you released it, that you could have a better chance of
    staying on the unicycle when using the brake (especially in a situation
    that requires a spontaneous adjustment in speed).

    I'm sure that besides the weight issue, there must be other problems
    with this, but I'm too short on brain cells to figure that out. What do
    you think?

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  7. I wish someone would cook up an alternative for the Magura per hard core
    Muni. I've got two Maguras and am constantly swapping them out and
    sending the busted one back to the factory for blown hoses, etc., then
    a few weks later repeating the process with the good one. They're
    simply too fussy and fragile to hold up to all the rocks and falling we
    do. But there's nothing else I know of that works nearly as well.

    Gotta wonder if some DH rim/cable brake isn't available to ease my
    grief, though I suspect clearance might be an issue. The "Dutch
    Solution" doesn't sound like a viable alternative, however. Nor does
    the Fred Flintstone method (foot dragging).

    Go figure . . .

    JL

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  8. I've found my Maggies to be perfectly serviceable and tough, if you have
    lots of trouble with hoses try upgrading to braided metal hoses, that
    should stop rubbing/splitting issues.

    Loose.

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  9. unidaddy said:

    But I wonder if some of the brilliant minds on this forum could develop
    something like this.......a mass-adjusting braking system. Wouldn't it
    be great if there was a practical way of combining traditional braking
    with something that kicked the center of gravity simultaneously
    backward ...

    Unfortunately, this would be contrary to Newton's laws of motion, but
    other than that, it might just work.

    The Japanese longbow is the same today as centuries ago. If the archer
    misses his target, he turns his atention to his technique and practises
    to improve it.

    The western longbow, with its balance weights and telescopic sights is
    almost unrecogniseable compared to the one that controlled the field of
    battle at Agincourt.

    Is it easier to work harder to earn money to spend on stuff to make it
    easier to do what you enjoy than it is to work harder improving at the
    stuff you enjoy?

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  10. steveyo said:

    Here is a possible arrangement.

    that one looks like it'd work.
    i wouldn't mind trying it...

    --
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  11. unidaddy said:

    ...I've had some scary moments letting the brake off, too

    I had this briefly on my uni until I got the brakes adjusted correctly
    so they work progressively rather than just on and off. If you've got
    v-brakes, you do it like on here where it says 'Setting Pads'
    http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=21 with a shim (piece
    of cardboard,or rubber band). Basically just loosen the pad, squeeze
    the lever tight until the pad is sitting nicely and is toed in
    correctly, tighten up the pad and then release the lever.

    If you've got maguras, there's probably something you can do to adjust
    the angle so that they work properly, but I don't know what? Anyone?

    Basically, the key thing is to make it so that putting the brake on
    doesn't make the pads pull onto the rim and brake more. This way you
    can simply control the power by varying your pull, and slowly let off
    the brake, rather than suddenly releasing the power. I'm not sure if
    the coker frame doesn't help here either, if it twists much under
    braking, that could force the pads to turn into the frame maybe.

    vivalargo have you tried a set of well set up v-brakes? I believe
    Shimano Deore rim brakes will fit over a 26"x3" tyre, and when you set
    them up right, they work fantastically, from my (limited) experience of
    maguras, the v-brakes I've ridden with feel at least as good as maguras
    to me. As long as your brake mounts are behind the frame rather than in
    front, there shouldn't be any problems with hitting the brake arms. It
    might be slightly hassle for seat in front if you do that a lot, but I
    doubt it. Joe McLean over here has v-brakes on his muni and they appear
    reliable in the long term, with a whole lot of riding in them. I've got
    them on my Schlumpf 29er and they were fantastic for the about 15 miles
    of pretty steep riding that I got to use them for, before the Schlumpf
    frame snapped. They're oh oh so easy to fit too. Takes 10 minutes to
    install too and has no bleeding or tube broken hassles, and you can
    take a spare cable in the unlikely event of breaking it on the trail.

    Joe

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  12. Thanks, Joe......I will get my V-brake adjusted per your advice. Maybe
    I'll be more inclined to use it if it works better.

    Mike--

    I pride myself in NOT being a lawbreaker, Newton's or any others.
    While you've pointed out that my description of my lame idea is indeed
    faulty, maybe this little sketch would suffice to explain what my words
    didn't....sorry.

    http://tinyurl.com/dnkr8

    Even though the longbow was good enough to win the battle, it seems
    that mankind has found plenty of new ways to kill people. I see this
    trivial waste of my own time (and now yours) quite harmless and in the
    spirit of good fun. I didn't mean to trigger arrogant sarcasm.

    --
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  13. unidaddy said:


    Mike--
    quite harmless and in the spirit of good fun. I didn't mean to trigger
    arrogant sarcasm.

    Sorry. Cultural differences. Over here, that would be heavy irony as
    part of a robust but good natured debate. It's a British thing - it's
    how we bond. This is an international forum and I should have made
    allowances. I apologise for any offence caused.:o

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  14. Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Overly sensitive on my part.
    Sorry. I'm a sissy.:o

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  15. Hi,
    I like the spool brake idea for a road uni. Why not build one and let
    us know how it works out. Here is the set up that I use it cost $20.00
    Canadian to put together.

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  16. unidaddy said:

    Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Overly sensitive on my part.
    Sorry. I'm a sissy.:o

    No problem.🙂

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  17. whatever happened to the guy making the magnetic-controlled coker
    brake?
    http://mc2.elijahtech.com/index.php

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  18. Loosemoose said:

    I've found my Maggies to be perfectly serviceable and tough, if you have
    lots of trouble with hoses try upgrading to braided metal hoses, that
    should stop rubbing/splitting issues.

    Loose.

    I have the braided cables but we're always trying hard stuff and so
    every ride is good for at least a dozen falls. The cables hold up but
    not the fittings . . . or me.

    JL

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  19. I encourage anyone to tackle the roller brake, you might be able to make
    something useful. But I'd pay attention to the previous hundred years
    of bicycle technology to help save you some time. Find out what's
    already known to not work well. After that, consider how many parts
    would have to be custom made compared to a more traditional brake
    system.

    Another drawback to a tire-based brake that I didn't see mentioned
    above is stuff on the tire. Water would probably be a major problem.
    Dirt? Mud?

    The balance-point adjusting concept is something that would be nice to
    have, but like Mike said I'm not sure that you can arrive at it without
    cheating or some heavy duty electronics and sensors (aka Segway). The
    idea of adding extra weight, just to make it easier to slow down, seems
    like a step in the wrong direction (except for a pure fitness vehicle).
    You need to get the wheel out in front of you before applying brakes,
    and the more in front it is, the harder you can apply the brakes. But
    also the higher the consequences and tighter the tolerances to keep
    everything under control. It would be kind of like the unicycle
    equivalent of antilock brakes. 🙂

    Mikefule said:

    Is it easier to work harder to earn money to spend on stuff to make it
    easier to do what you enjoy than it is to work harder improving at the
    stuff you enjoy?

    This of course all depends on the individual; how much available time
    they have vs. budget. Some of us are into other things, or have
    families, etc.

    Originally I thought Mike's clever quote was comparing buying existing
    technology (more money but less time) with designing/testing/making
    your own stuff (*maybe* less money but way more time). It all depends
    what you're into. I love the fact that so many people are experimenting
    and coming up with new ideas for unicycling these days. Keep it up!

    --
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  20. steveyo said:

    Has anyone ever considered a brake that works directly on the crown of
    the tire? Say a lever which presses a roller-type braking mechanism
    down onto the rubber spinning near/under the seat, at the top of the
    fork. The roller, like a spinning spool, could have a variable
    resistance, to strengthen or weaken the force.

    I have mulled over the possibilities of using a roller (I was thinking
    of using a skate or scooter wheel) to help reduce my speed when riding
    down long steep hills, not so much for stopping. The drag force would
    come from the tire tread deflecting not the rubbing friction against
    the tread surface. So to be effective the tire pressure would need to
    be low enough for the tread to flex, this of course would raise the
    rolling friction when not braking, possibly outweighing the benefit. so
    in my experiment workshop this one has a kinda low priority.

    al

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