breathing – asthma?



Originally posted by Beastt
** Salbutamol Side Effects **
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/showpreparation.asp?id=2321
---------

This link is to the side effects for ORAL salbutamol. Normally inhaled salbutamol would be prescribed for asthma control. As jshct rightly pointed out before, inhaled asthma medication is associated with a reduced risk of side effects because not much goes systemic.

In fact, the site you have linked to says of inhaled salbutamol versus the oral preparation that the site you have linked to is about 'it also reduces the potential for side effects occurring in other parts of the body, as the amount absorbed into the blood through the lungs is lower than if it is taken by mouth.'

Note once again that this site doesn't mention the frequency of side effects or the harm casued by them (eg - tachycardia: none - awareness of heartbeat: none - tremors: almost always slight, and unless you have to write neatly none).

Also, if you follow the link to the 'about asthma' section of this site, it reccomends treatment before exercise (in consultation with a doctor) with a bronchodilator, like salbutamol!

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/asthma.htm
 
Roadie, I was simply responding to your claim that there were only two side effects and that they were basically harmless. Hopefully, everyone knows that not everyone taking a drug is likely to suffer from all side effects listed for any medication and that it's more likely that the average person will suffer from none or only a few and usually only to a slight degree. The point was simply that there are well more than two side effects and some of them could be quite dangerous.

Since, if I remember correctly, you stated that you have asthma and have used Salbutamol, why don't you check the packaging and see if there is a list of cautions and side effects and tell us what is printed on the packaging for the actual product?

Information is information. Some good, some less good and some bad. I didn't happen to have the 2004 PDR on hand. Thanks for the tips but, as before, when you suggested basically that I restrict my web-based information to that which you personally approve of, I'll take the suggestion into consideration but it seems more than a tad biased on your part.

It would seem that there exists sufficient evidence to suggest that diet indeed can affect asthma. Obviously, there is some disagreement over whether dairy has a positive or negative affect but if diet can reduce the instance of asthma or episodes of asthma, whether it be through dietary exclusion or inclusion, it seems a method worthy of consideration.

If you prefer turning to drugs without investigating other possible treatments then I can only suggest that you do what works for you and allow others the opportunity to explore their own options and make their own decisions concerning what seems the to be best option to them.

:)
 
Originally posted by Roadie_scum
These side effects are almost all benign. The more serious ones are rare to the point that food allergy is probably more likely (yes, even to vegan foods). It remains the case that proper treatment of Asthma with drugs like salbutamol and inhaled steroids (where appropriate and reccomended by a doctor):

i. can prevent death

and

ii. can allow asthmatics to properly enjoy exercise

I personally struggle with asthmatics saying 'I have asthma, but I stop it by not exercising over a certain level' - with proper clinical control and warmups, almost everyone should be able to exercise right up to their maximum intensity most of the time.
As a person with asthma who takes Advair (among others) and who hates to stay away from cycling, you are correct. If I start out slowly enough and let my lungs warm up, I can have a blast.
 
Originally posted by Cowboyathlete
As a person with asthma who takes Advair (among others) and who hates to stay away from cycling, you are correct. If I start out slowly enough and let my lungs warm up, I can have a blast.

The point here is the difference between masking symptoms and not having a disorder. Suppose you could start out any way you want, not worry about warming your lungs up and still have a blast? If... IF, diet were found to be at the root of your asthma, and the dietary changes were ones you felt you could make, then you wouldn't have to worry about it at all. Nor would you have to worry about any side effects, taking your medication or even keeping it around. It's a big "IF" at this point but the information posted here, (this thread), by both sides, does suggest that there is a link.

jshct made the point that many asthma medications are anti-inflammatory agents and then concluded that this excluded the possibility of diet being a factor. Salbutamol is a form of altered, synthetic adrenaline. I must assume that much of the text in this thread was skimmed over and much of it missed, or simply dismissed. It's about the immune system. The immune system is a wonderful thing, the only thing that keeps us alive amid the barrage of invasions from microbes and toxins in our environment. But the immune system sometimes reacts inappropriately, (as in allergies), and other times is too weakened to handle the job at hand. Much of that weakening is caused by pesticide residues in the diet.

When cells reproduce, sometimes there is a mutation and apoptosis may fail. This is not an unusual circumstance. It occurs in all of us several times each year. If, as a result of the mutation, these cells fail to reproduce at a proper rate and order, we have the start of cancer. It becomes the job of the immune system to destroy these mutant cells before they become a problem. But, when the immune system fails, cancer is the result. Even in treating cancer, the immune system is the bottom line. Once surgery, chemotherapy or radiation has reduced the number of these cells, the immune system must seek out and destroy any remaining or the cancer will return.

Diet has been shown to play a significant part in the strength of the immune system. Cancer is but one example. People who consume fewer animal-based foods, (and therefore, fewer pesticides), suffer a lesser incidence of cancer. People can spout all they want about a lack of proof that one has anything to do with the other but the fact remains that, for instance, vegetarian women suffer less breast cancer than women who consume animal-based foods. According to Dr. William Castelli, director of the Framingham Heart Study, (the longest, and, I believe still ongoing, study into heart disease), vegetarians have only 40% the cancer rate of those who consume animal products.

Men who consume animal products daily suffer 3.6 times the risk of prostate cancer over men who don't consume those foods. The list of cancers and of other disorders which have a strong statistical tie to diet goes on and on.

"More and more we realize that vegetarian diet is a good idea." -- Dr. Edward Martin, head of Dept. of Defense Health

"Some people are still going to want to eat meat.. we do agree though that vegetarianism is a healthier diet." -- David Stroud of the American Meat Institute

Arguably"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of ‘real food for real people,’ you'd better live real close to a real good hospital".-- Neal D. Barnard, M.D.

First, it's about being properly informed. This is something that the meat, egg and dairy industries do not want to see happen. Those old posters so many of us learned our "nutrition" information from in grade school were not purchased by the schools. They weren't even educational material. They were provided to the schools, free of charge by the meat and dairy councils. Is it any wonder that the old 4-food groups on those posters suggested that half of your food choices should be meat, poultry and dairy? If you look at one of those posters, and check the tiny print at the bottom or sometimes on the back, you'll see where they came from.

Secondly it's about choice. Once you know what the choices are and what the consequences are, then you should be free to choose for yourself. If you still prefer to medicate rather than prevent, then at least it was a well informed decision.

Unfortunately, there has been a stereotype created in regard to vegetarians. Many see the word as being associated with your standard "nut-jobs" who pray to crystals, search for the center of vortexes, live in grass huts or any number of true oddities. Perhaps the list of vegetarians whom you might recognize is worth a quick look; Albert Einstein, Leonardo De Vinci, Sir Isaac Newton, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Plutarch, Tolstoy, Charles Darwin, Dr. Henry Heimlich, Albert Schweitzer, Nikola Tesla... certainly not a list of crackpots. This is just a sample but the list becomes thought provoking.

Is it possible that fats and cholesterol don't plug just the coronary arteries? Of course, it's already been well proven that arteries all over the body become plugged including those in the brain. If the artery is of sufficient size, we notice a substantial change and we call it a stroke. But many, much smaller blood vessels become plugged as well and the tissues fed by those pathways die.

Be informed by both sides of the issue. That's what this thread seems to have evolved into. Once you've seen the data, done a bit of objective research on your own, then it's time to draw your own conculsions and make your own choices.

:)
 
Originally posted by Beastt
Since, if I remember correctly, you stated that you have asthma and have used Salbutamol, why don't you check the packaging and see if there is a list of cautions and side effects and tell us what is printed on the packaging for the actual product?


This information is available in PDF form on the Glaxo-Smith Kline Australia website for one. A google search should locate it.

Information is information. Some good, some less good and some bad. I didn't happen to have the 2004 PDR on hand. Thanks for the tips but, as before, when you suggested basically that I restrict my web-based information to that which you personally approve of, I'll take the suggestion into consideration but it seems more than a tad biased on your part.

It's not whether or not I approve of it, it's whether or not it's reliable, verifiable and presented in a helpful and accurate manner. Information is information, except when it's wrong, or presented in a way that intentionally provokes a reaction which in itself is not justified by the information.

It would seem that there exists sufficient evidence to suggest that diet indeed can affect asthma. Obviously, there is some disagreement over whether dairy has a positive or negative affect but if diet can reduce the instance of asthma or episodes of asthma, whether it be through dietary exclusion or inclusion, it seems a method worthy of consideration.

Absolutely. I don't think I ever disagreed with this. The issue is a little bit more complex than the initial information you presented suggested. Most doctors and all competent specialists) will have an understanding of the possible dietary triggers for asthma - talk to them about it. And think about eating healthier anyway - it can't hurt.

If you prefer turning to drugs without investigating other possible treatments then I can only suggest that you do what works for you and allow others the opportunity to explore their own options and make their own decisions concerning what seems the to be best option to them.

I never said turn to drugs without investigating other treatments. The use of the language 'turn to' seems a bit loaded, by the way. Like, turn to the dark side little one...

Drugs area very effective potentially lifesaving treatment for asthma, and have minimal side effects (as said before, an actually harmful reaction is maybe as or less likely than a similar or worse reaction to food). However, other things play a part - for me if I avoid dust and warm up before exercise that helps. I also try to eat healthy, make sure I get lots of fruit and veg, as well as red meat at least twice a week. By all means, investigate these things, and talk about them with doctors and other qualified people, but taking drugs for asthma is not risky in any real sense of the word 'risk', and to use language like 'turn to' or 'pumping chemicals' just isn't helpful.

Peace out,

I'm off to eat some nut loaf.
 
Originally posted by Roadie_scum
This information is available in PDF form on the Glaxo-Smith Kline Australia website for one. A google search should locate it.

Not a problem. I'll look it up.

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
It's not whether or not I approve of it, it's whether or not it's reliable, verifiable and presented in a helpful and accurate manner. Information is information, except when it's wrong, or presented in a way that intentionally provokes a reaction which in itself is not justified by the information.[/B]

Hmmm, you didn't approve of one of my published sources even though it has been quite well received by experts in the field covered by the book, applauded for the thoroughness of the research and references and nominated for a Pulitzer prize.

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Absolutely. I don't think I ever disagreed with this. The issue is a little bit more complex than the initial information you presented suggested. Most doctors and all competent specialists) will have an understanding of the possible dietary triggers for asthma - talk to them about it. And think about eating healthier anyway - it can't hurt.[/B]

Then perhaps it can be said that we've both learned a thing or two about the topic. I think it's fair to say that some doctors will have an understanding of the possible dietary triggers. Others will tell you that diet has nothing to do with it and medication is the only treatment. Many doctors still deny the link between cancer and diet and up until a few years ago, many even denied the link between diet and heart disease. I'm sure that goes back to the lack of nutrition training received in medical schools.

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
I never said turn to drugs without investigating other treatments. The use of the language 'turn to' seems a bit loaded, by the way. Like, turn to the dark side little one...[/B]

Well, I'll take your word for it concerning the nature of the phrase, "turn to". That wasn't my intent but if that's the way it read, then - my apologies. I do believe you made some fairly bold statements about medication/drugs being the only real or valid way to treat asthma. So we've both given a little ground to the other, picked up a thing or two we didn't know and hopefully shared the knowledge with others who may now find themselves with a better understanding of the disorder and possibly a wider array of options.

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Drugs area very effective potentially lifesaving treatment for asthma, and have minimal side effects (as said before, an actually harmful reaction is maybe as or less likely than a similar or worse reaction to food). However, other things play a part - for me if I avoid dust and warm up before exercise that helps. I also try to eat healthy, make sure I get lots of fruit and veg, as well as red meat at least twice a week. By all means, investigate these things, and talk about them with doctors and other qualified people, but taking drugs for asthma is not risky in any real sense of the word 'risk', and to use language like 'turn to' or 'pumping chemicals' just isn't helpful.

Peace out,

I'm off to eat some nut loaf. [/B]

The history of "safe" drugs in the medical field leaves a fair amount of room for skepticism. In many cases, the nature of food, as concerns side-effects, is better understood than some drugs which have appeared safe in testing, been awarded clearence by the FDA, but then showed unexpected "inconveniences", shall we say, when applied to the public. Although medications are certainly a wonder of our time and do much to improve the quality of life for untold numbers of people. it's all too easy to become so charmed by the capabilities of these chemicals in reacting to the human body and those things that can negatively affect it, that we forget about the basics. Use medication when appropriate but don't forget that the things you eat are always a potential variable.
 
Originally posted by Beastt
The point here is the difference between masking symptoms and not having a disorder. Suppose you could start out any way you want, not worry about warming your lungs up and still have a blast? If... IF, diet were found to be at the root of your asthma, and the dietary changes were ones you felt you could make, then you wouldn't have to worry about it at all. Nor would you have to worry about any side effects, taking your medication or even keeping it around. It's a big "IF" at this point but the information posted here, (this thread), by both sides, does suggest that there is a link.


If (not a big if) you are one of the small minority of asthma sufferers who have a dietary trigger, and you have found and excluded this trigger, and this has reduced the severity to the point you no longer need medication, fantastic. That happens sometimes, it's not a 'big IF'. It just doesn't happen very often, and it's not predicated on highminded speculation about the benefits of a vegetarian diet. Also, many (most) asthmatics have multiple triggers, so it is unlikely dietary change will totally eliminate asthma, and it's normally neccessary to stay on the medication (while enjoying reduced frequency of attacks).

Also, it's not a choice between masking the symptoms and not having the disorder - the choice is between having the disorder and avoiding triggers, or having the disorder and not avoiding triggers.

jshct made the point that many asthma medications are anti-inflammatory agents and then concluded that this excluded the possibility of diet being a factor. Salbutamol is a form of altered, synthetic adrenaline. I must assume that much of the text in this thread was skimmed over and much of it missed, or simply dismissed. It's about the immune system. The immune system is a wonderful thing, the only thing that keeps us alive amid the barrage of invasions from microbes and toxins in our environment. But the immune system sometimes reacts inappropriately, (as in allergies), and other times is too weakened to handle the job at hand. Much of that weakening is caused by pesticide residues in the diet.

The mechanism of asthma is not nearly as well understood or as simple as this paragraph makes out. As for this pestitude residues stuff... I feel like I'm going round in circles...


Diet has been shown to play a significant part in the strength of the immune system. Cancer is but one example. People who consume fewer animal-based foods, (and therefore, fewer pesticides), suffer a lesser incidence of cancer. People can spout all they want about a lack of proof that one has anything to do with the other but the fact remains that, for instance, vegetarian women suffer less breast cancer than women who consume animal-based foods. According to Dr. William Castelli, director of the Framingham Heart Study, (the longest, and, I believe still ongoing, study into heart disease), vegetarians have only 40% the cancer rate of those who consume animal products.

Men who consume animal products daily suffer 3.6 times the risk of prostate cancer over men who don't consume those foods. The list of cancers and of other disorders which have a strong statistical tie to diet goes on and on.

I love this stuff...

Perhaps the causal mechanism is the generally improved consumption of macro and micro nutrients by vegetarians, because they are conscious of what they eat, often cook for themselves and are excluded from eating junkfood. These are all good things, but not contingent on not eating meat. Comparing vegetarians with the population at large is not really valid - they should be compared with people who are similarly conscious of their diet, engage in similar levels of physical activity, of similar age, and who eat meat.

Secondly it's about choice. Once you know what the choices are and what the consequences are, then you should be free to choose for yourself. If you still prefer to medicate rather than prevent, then at least it was a well informed decision.

False dichotomy.

Unfortunately, there has been a
stereotype created in regard to vegetarians. Many see the word as being associated with your standard "nut-jobs" who pray to crystals, search for the center of vortexes, live in grass huts or any number of true oddities. Perhaps the list of vegetarians whom you might recognize is worth a quick look; Albert Einstein, Leonardo De Vinci, Sir Isaac Newton, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Plutarch, Tolstoy, Charles Darwin, Dr. Henry Heimlich, Albert Schweitzer, Nikola Tesla... certainly not a list of crackpots. This is just a sample but the list becomes thought provoking.

And Ric Stern and 2LAP I believe, who are also very helpful and intelligent people.

Be informed by both sides of the issue. That's what this thread seems to have evolved into. Once you've seen the data, done a bit of objective research on your own, then it's time to draw your own conculsions and make your own choices.

Look, if you don't like meat, or you feel morally compelled not to eat it, good, don't eat it. If you want to convince people on a moral basis that meat is not a good foodstuff, present those arguments (somewhere else). If you want to help athletes with their porblems with asthma, creating false dichotomies, ignoring evidence and presenting information in a misleading way or information that is intrinsically misleading (remember Chet?) is not going to help. Also, you don't need scientific literature to justify your choices, they're your choices and I hope you're happy with them... but if you are going to advocate them as materially improving your and other's health, then we're gonna need some objective evidence.
 
Originally posted by Beastt
Hmmm, you didn't approve of one of my published sources even though it has been quite well received by experts in the field covered by the book, applauded for the thoroughness of the research and references and nominated for a Pulitzer prize.


I think the main thing I objected to was the uncontrolled study of 24 subjects. That the book referenced this essentially meaningless study (n=too low, uncontrolled, too many variables) points to at least one failing. I haven't read the book and I'm unsure about it's import so I can't judge that, but the Pulitzer is an award for journalism not science.



Then perhaps it can be said that we've both learned a thing or two about the topic. I think it's fair to say that some doctors will have an understanding of the possible dietary triggers. Others will tell you that diet has nothing to do with it and medication is the only treatment. Many doctors still deny the link between cancer and diet and up until a few years ago, many even denied the link between diet and heart disease. I'm sure that goes back to the lack of nutrition training received in medical schools.

Medication is an effective treatment whether or not there is a dietary trigger.

Well, I'll take your word for it concerning the nature of the phrase, "turn to". That wasn't my intent but if that's the way it read, then - my apologies. I do believe you made some fairly bold statements about medication/drugs being the only real or valid way to treat asthma. So we've both given a little ground to the other, picked up a thing or two we didn't know and hopefully shared the knowledge with others who may now find themselves with a better understanding of the disorder and possibly a wider array of options.

One thing I do have to agree with you on is that it's best to pursue a variety of options and attempt to control things as much as possible with your healthcare. I personally wouldn't extend this to leaps of faith into a vastly different diet without good evidence.


The history of "safe" drugs in the medical field leaves a fair amount of room for skepticism. In many cases, the nature of food, as concerns side-effects, is better understood than some drugs which have appeared safe in testing, been awarded clearence by the FDA, but then showed unexpected "inconveniences", shall we say, when applied to the public. Although medications are certainly a wonder of our time and do much to improve the quality of life for untold numbers of people. it's all too easy to become so charmed by the capabilities of these chemicals in reacting to the human body and those things that can negatively affect it, that we forget about the basics. Use medication when appropriate but don't forget that the things you eat are always a potential variable.

This is true, sometimes, and the history of drugs that should never have gone to market is a tragic one, and one most medicos are keen to not repeat. That said, I do actually agree that avoiding radical medical intervention through, normally, surgery and drugs, is good where possible. However, when the risks are very low and well documented, and the benefits large, as with asthma medication, I say use it if it's prescribed and as it's prescribed. My main fear is that you might encourage even one person to go against good clinical advice and stop taking their medication, which could have consequences ranging from annoying to disastrous.

Some drugs you can be skeptical about, others have been used so widely you can comfortably assume most side effects have been accurately described in terms of both frequency and severity.
 
Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Look, if you don't like meat, or you feel morally compelled not to eat it, good, don't eat it. If you want to convince people on a moral basis that meat is not a good foodstuff, present those arguments (somewhere else). If you want to help athletes with their porblems with asthma, creating false dichotomies, ignoring evidence and presenting information in a misleading way or information that is intrinsically misleading (remember Chet?) is not going to help. Also, you don't need scientific literature to justify your choices, they're your choices and I hope you're happy with them... but if you are going to advocate them as materially improving your and other's health, then we're gonna need some objective evidence.

Inappropriate and uncalled for;

It's not that I'm not appreciative of your attempts to give me direction, Roadie_Scum, but unless I've missed something here, it's really not your place and I'll thank you more whole-heartedly for discontinuing the practice in the future.

Accusing me of ignoring evidence is something I've intentionally avoided directing toward your responses. It's a standard technique to avoid responding to those things one knows they can't present an adequate argument against. And I've noticed a number of topics you've completely glossed over. That's okay, though. I'm not here to tell you how or where to offer your views.

I've noticed a very well developed tendency to avoid accepting any evidence presented if it doesn't agree with your line of thinking. Your idea of "objective" means that it agrees with your preconceived notions. If it doesn't, then you label it as untrustworthy, lacking objectivity or just plain false. If it pins a point of contention down, then it's presented in a misleading manner.

Such action is making the entire thing quite tedious. I've attempted to offer information but you have your ideas on the matter and I have mine. People should have their own choices and I'm sorry if you have a problem with someone deciding to choose for themselves rather than blindly following your lead.

Your comments regarding vegetarianism/veganism as not having significant health benefits simply for the exclusion of animal products from the diet shows a complete lack of ability to accept ideas that fall counter to what you wish to believe and a lack of knowledge concerning how various foods and their impurities affect health.

As for me, I'm done with this issue. The evidence from both sides has been presented and it's really not about you or about me. It's about the people looking for information and that has been presented and is here for them to find. I made a very simple post in a fairly submissive manner then quietly avoided conflict until I was accused of having fabricated the information. I've played defense to your offense and I think it's time to simply bow out and hope that the cumulative affect of the information from both sides is helpful to anyone with the stamina to read through the thread.

*unsubscribed*
 
OK, you're unsubscribed, but can you please explain how this 'shows a complete lack of ability to accept ideas that fall counter to what you wish to believe'. It sounds like scientific method to me.

Comparing vegetarians with the population at large is not really valid - they should be compared with people who are similarly conscious of their diet, engage in similar levels of physical activity, of similar age, and who eat meat.
 
Note to people reading this thread:

I accept I have at times been overly combative. Sorry. Please just note the points about scientific method; responding in general terms to these points with further unsubstantiated 'information' is not acceptable. By all means, gather the data and make your own decision. But be careful, not all information is equal. Look for reliable sources - some will agree with my particular point of view, some won't, but statistical significance is the litmus test, and what sounds like science often isn't, especially if someone's selling. This applies to medical and homeopathic products, although it's worth noting that medical products are significantly more heavily regulated and medical companies suffer much more dire consequences when 'caught out'.

Finally, if you are short of breath, or have some other health complaint, the doctors the go... they aren't all great, but 10 years of training beats cobbling information together off the internet.