General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Breathing Patterns for Same Cadence Running

Ozzie Gontang · 2005-11-28T16:31:10+00:00

Posted a few time over the years. The various breathing patterns you can use while running at cadence. The longer breath cycles are when you're running slow and working on a faster cadence. When you get up to faster speeds because you're falling faster and covering more ground at the same cadence you have to breathe more cycles of air per x number of steps. In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang [email hidden] Maintainer - rec.running FAQ http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you'll realize that it's GAPO at it's best. Path: electriciti.com!gontang From: [email hidden] (Ozzie Gontang) Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: Re: breathing method while running Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:22:19 -0800 Organization: Int'l Assn of Marathoners I would appreciate any hints on the best way to breathe while jogging . This post scrolled off a few days ago: [email hidden] (Stan Scott) wrote:\ Do long distance runners use any type of breating control? Like Long deep breaths? Or is it just best to breath naturally? >Stan Just try to breath naturally. Try breathing through your nose only. When you are used to it you breathe as if sitting on your couch. Rob Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper running is breathing and the rhythms of breath. Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. The issue is getting the leg through its cycle to touch the ground maintaining the same cadence. This is where the concept of running is falling and catching oneself gracefully. To that end, breathing becomes the next important factor in maintaining an oxygen uptake to support the increased speed while maintaining the same cadence turnover. This is where I teach breathing at slower speeds to a 4 steps in and 4 to 8 steps out. The idea is that I am never panicked and that my breathing sequences are always enough to sustain the rate of turnover...which maintains at the same cadence be it a 9 or 10 minute mile or a 5 minute or better mile. So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8.. Then as I need more air I go to a 4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2 cycles of air every 24 steps 4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11 steps 4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps 4in/5out; 1 cycle of air every 9 steps 4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8 steps 3 cycles of air every 24 steps 3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 7 steps 3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles of air every 24 steps 2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps 2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24 steps 1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every 24 steps 1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps 1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps The ideal one goes for is the same volume at all rhythms. Remember you're always breathing though the nose even when the mouth is open...unless your nose is blocked, i.e. nasal congestion. All of these patterns are breathed at a rate so that the mind stays calm and does not let any of the body unnecessarily tighten up from a perceived stress beyond one's capability. The other aspect of breathing cycles is that an even (symmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps in & steps out total an even number, the runner is always running on the same foot at intake and also at exhale. With an odd (asymmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps in & steps out total an odd number, the runner is running off the opposite foot at initial intake step of each breathing cycle in three steps/out four steps in three steps/our four steps in-two-three out-two-three-four in-two-three out-two-three-four LFT-2 - 3---Rt -two-three-four RT-two-three Lft-two-three-four LFT-two-three... L 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 L 2 3... In animals there is a breathing pattern which is called phase locking. It has been photographed at high speeds in horses, cheetahs, ostriches where at full speed there is one pattern into which they fall. In humans, if I remember from the research, there were found two phase lock patterns at top speed. I have the research article somewhere in one of my files. I'll see if I can dig it up. So you can see if you breath 2in/2out all the time and we speed up you can only continue to do what you do. You only get 6 cycles of air every 24 steps. Whereas I can pick up the speed and get 8 cycles or even 9 cycles of air every 24 steps...and if I practice I can get 10 or 12 cycles every 24 steps. You may begin to realize that running a marathon during the later part of the run from 15 onwards is a matter of running in a trance state. It is through these breathing patterns I have taught people to play with the rhythms of their breath to keep on going. So for someone whose muscles are glycogen depleted I need to maintain the same running pace but increase the amount of oxygen to those muscles...and that is where the breathing patterns come in. Some people begin to realize the power of rhythm. When I run with a partner and we are doing symmetric breathing of 2in/2out or 3in/3out or 4in/4out, I do reciprocal breathing so that after 3 or 4 minutes as they breathe out I am breathing in and as they breathe in I am breathing out. The sound can be heard and the experience is that the other person's out breath is breathing me and on the next cycle mine his/hers. Eyes on the horizon, breathing reciprocally with my partner, the miles covered in trance are an experience to remember. When into the breathing and at different breathing patterns both symmetric and asymmetric and some being reciprocal, the breathing patterns of 3 or 4 or 5 of us mixed with the foot touch (rather than foot fall)can carry a group of runners easily for miles where the mind scans the body to relax any tension as it arises and lets it go...going back to the sound of the feet running together and the breathe of the pack. If you've seen Stomp you know the power of rhythm! -- In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 (Mindful Running) http://www.mindfulness.com

Started by Ozzie Gontang · 28 November 2005 · Last activity 2 December 2005 · 31 posts · 1,008 views

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Original section: General fitness, health and nutrition
Published: 28 November 2005
Last activity: 2 December 2005
Original author: Ozzie Gontang
Posts: 31
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 1,008
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Topics: Cadence

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Original post
Ozzie Gontang
Archived post

28 November 2005, 16:31 UTC #1

Posted a few time over the years.
The various breathing patterns you can use while running at cadence.
The longer breath cycles are when you're running slow and working on a faster cadence. When you get up to faster speeds because you're falling faster and covering more ground at the same cadence you have to breathe more cycles of air per x number of steps.
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
[email hidden]
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp
If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you'll realize that it's GAPO at it's best.
Path: electriciti.com!gontang
From: [email hidden] (Ozzie Gontang)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: breathing method while running
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:22:19 -0800
Organization: Int'l Assn of Marathoners
In article said:
I would appreciate any hints on the best way to breathe while jogging .
This post scrolled off a few days ago:
In article said:
[email hidden] (Stan Scott) wrote:\
Quoted message said:
Do long distance runners use any type of breating control? Like Long
deep breaths? Or is it just best to breath naturally? >Stan
Just try to breath naturally.
Try breathing through your nose only. When you are used to it you
breathe as if sitting on your couch. Rob
Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper
running is breathing and the rhythms of breath.
Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be
running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. The issue is getting the
leg through its cycle to touch the ground maintaining the same cadence.
This is where the concept of running is falling and catching oneself
gracefully.
To that end, breathing becomes the next important factor in maintaining an
oxygen uptake to support the increased speed while maintaining the same
cadence turnover.
This is where I teach breathing at slower speeds to a 4 steps in and 4 to 8
steps out. The idea is that I am never panicked and that my breathing
sequences are always enough to sustain the rate of turnover...which
maintains at the same cadence be it a 9 or 10 minute mile or a 5 minute or
better mile.
So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8..
Then as I need more air I go to a
4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2 cycles of air every 24 steps
4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11 steps
4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps
4in/5out; 1 cycle of air every 9 steps
4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8 steps 3 cycles of air every 24 steps
3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 7 steps
3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles of air every 24 steps
2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps
2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24 steps
1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps
The ideal one goes for is the same volume at all rhythms. Remember you're always breathing though the nose even when the mouth is open...unless your nose is blocked, i.e. nasal congestion.
All of these patterns are breathed at a rate so that the mind stays calm
and does not let any of the body unnecessarily tighten up from a perceived
stress beyond one's capability.
The other aspect of breathing cycles is that an even (symmetric) breathing
pattern, which means when the steps in & steps out total an even number,
the runner is always running on the same foot at intake and also at exhale.
With an odd (asymmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps in &
steps out total an odd number, the runner is running off the opposite foot
at initial intake step of each breathing cycle
in three steps/out four steps in three steps/our four steps
in-two-three out-two-three-four in-two-three out-two-three-four
LFT-2 - 3---Rt -two-three-four RT-two-three Lft-two-three-four LFT-two-three...
L 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 L 2 3...
In animals there is a breathing pattern which is called phase locking. It
has been photographed at high speeds in horses, cheetahs, ostriches where
at full speed there is one pattern into which they fall. In humans, if I
remember from the research, there were found two phase lock patterns at top
speed. I have the research article somewhere in one of my files. I'll
see if I can dig it up.
So you can see if you breath 2in/2out all the time and we speed up you can
only continue to do what you do. You only get 6 cycles of air every 24
steps. Whereas I can pick up the speed and get 8 cycles or even 9 cycles
of air every 24 steps...and if I practice I can get 10 or 12 cycles every
24 steps.
You may begin to realize that running a marathon during the later part of
the run from 15 onwards is a matter of running in a trance state. It is
through these breathing patterns I have taught people to play with the
rhythms of their breath to keep on going. So for someone whose muscles are
glycogen depleted I need to maintain the same running pace but increase the
amount of oxygen to those muscles...and that is where the breathing
patterns come in.
Some people begin to realize the power of rhythm. When I run with a
partner and we are doing symmetric breathing of 2in/2out or 3in/3out or
4in/4out, I do reciprocal breathing so that after 3 or 4 minutes as they
breathe out I am breathing in and as they breathe in I am breathing out.
The sound can be heard and the experience is that the other person's out
breath is breathing me and on the next cycle mine his/hers.
Eyes on the horizon, breathing reciprocally with my partner, the miles
covered in trance are an experience to remember.
When into the breathing and at different breathing patterns both symmetric
and asymmetric and some being reciprocal, the breathing patterns of 3 or 4
or 5 of us mixed with the foot touch (rather than foot fall)can carry a
group of runners easily for miles where the mind scans the body to relax
any tension as it arises and lets it go...going back to the sound of the
feet running together and the breathe of the pack. If you've seen Stomp you know the power of rhythm!
--
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
(Mindful Running) http://www.mindfulness.com

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Pal Mater
Archived post

28 November 2005, 17:37 UTC #2

4000÷360=11.1111111
Jupiter behind the sun there
given 5° 10° left right weak strong eye
well like the earth movers doing road on our land. back then....they
must of used the 5° 10° weak eye. oppose wait a minute there not
suppose to be on our land. The barn and two telephone poles one would
think... you know there eye in modern.....cops said gps.....and the
barn and poles. at least the stop sign oppose wrong again......
compass is over there. looks like the 150 farm year and 75 year no
build law must not work after.......well I am sure the planet knows.
must be a weak eye and a wrong bearing. I know how about 187° and
deviate 7°.sorry since no job in 3 plus years and no school....I
don't know... 26.2 miles dude....... like they lost over there...and me
threw away the mormon state and my birth name on the 15the in 3 years
from other state and my names with painting on them....who is doing
this. oh I know again a secret......
oh well.....in trash again......
my birth name and a mormon state......what won't they think of
next...... or a road to the well. fire man thing. nice lighting
position. wait a tick this is pointed a me..... too much mud.
bike fell on calf.
Like temple 10 or lets blast the rock by Jupiter july 4 2004. to see if
we can get rock soup......
a red view from hell.
we all going there.
you know why 70 employers look at my resumes 520 times in 3 years and
not call me once.....
that land over there.......
The spiders set the trap.
again no unemplyment and zero zippo nada from anyone in construction.
was the jungle land now beep beep beep land, no animals any ore, a
beer any more, no 10 anything anymore. jngle just speak of why isn't
I buliding houses. because they all never pay me 4 years ago so why
would I think they well ever now.
i.r.s..stop sending me MY NAME AND PAINTING JUNK.NO BODY F ING
PAYS............ see yah" and breath
11.1111111 they NEVER PAY....
Maxwell house coffee is the best!

Report
Daniel
Archived post

29 November 2005, 16:40 UTC #3

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:31:10 GMT, Ozzie Gontang
<[email hidden]> wrote in part :
Quoted message said:
. . .
. . . it's GAPO at it's best.
Shouldn't that be *The* G.A.P.O. ? :-)
Quoted message said:
. . .
So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8..
Then as I need more air I go to a
4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2 cycles of air every 24 steps
4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11 steps
4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps
4in/5out; 1 cycle of air every 9 steps
4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8 steps 3 cycles of air every 24 steps
3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 7 steps
3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles of air every 24 steps
2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps
2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24 steps
1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps
. . .
You have reminded me of a question.
I am a believer in using the formula "In" plus "Out" equals "Odd
Number" (alternating the leading foot) -- as a
diaphragm-stitch-prevention measure -- at least until the demands of
intervals or hills require 2/2 or 1/1.
Being a newbie runner in an aging body (48 years) I tend to start out
extra slow (it works out to something like 11:15 mile pace) with
nose-only breathing four in five out. By the time I'm at 9:15 mile
pace or so my breathing is usually 3 in 4 out, through mouth and nose.
Anyway I recall reading somewhere about "Rhino Breathing" -- leafing
through "Running with the Buffaloes" at the book store maybe? --
meaning on hard uphills or faster running, one or two steps to the
inhale then a really hard fast forced exhalation.
Here's the question: I notice your patterns above are either even or
slower out than in. Why? And: Is there ever an advantage to *faster*
out than in?
Peace,
--
Daniel
[email hidden]

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Charlie Pendejo
Archived post

29 November 2005, 17:07 UTC #4

Phil M. said:
I've always felt that it wasn't right to have to think so hard
about something that should be natural.
Thus far I'm with you, Phil. The fact that so many of my animal
brethren adopt these patterns, presumably without thinking too hard
about them, would seem to argue against the need for my conscious
intervention - unless it's necessary to counteract some other ill which
has snuck in via human consciousness or modern lifestyle or whatever.
But I'm not feeling very hardcore unwavering absolutist on this one and
won't be entirely shocked to some day join the believers.
OTOH I do believe, for instance, that many (<-- cop-out word) of us can
benefit from attention to running form, despite running being such a
"natural" activity and the body's myriad automatic adjustments et
cetera, all of which convinces some folks that it's best to let the
body do what it wants, and apparently that anything we consciously do
about form can only screw us up.
Pendejo, breathing agnostic

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David Geesaman
Archived post

29 November 2005, 18:22 UTC #5

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ozzie Gontang said:
The various breathing patterns you can use while running at cadence.
I've been reading about these breathing patterns for years. I've tried
them, but they never seemed right. Maybe I need to give it more time.
I've always felt that it wasn't right to have to think so hard about
something that should be natural.
I suppose for someone lacking experience, it may help to focus on
breathing as an indirect means to achieving relaxation and efficiency.
Maybe it means more during a marathon than it does the 10ks and 10milers
that my experience is based on.
Personally, I think it's getting away from the job of one's mind during
a race: to push harder and stay efficient. That just means (to me) to relax
my shoulders, relax my abdomen, adjust my torso posture, relax my hands and
arms, relax my jaw and neck, and focus on moving faster without pushing
harder. To remain relaxed and be able to follow the ebb and flow of pace
during the run makes more sense to me than to focus on internal metronomes
that don't adjust for hills, wind, packs, etc.
Toward the end of the race, my mind is about focusing on the desired
result - a pass, a fast finish, the top of a tough hill. To think about
breathing is simply a very low priority.
Dave

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Jshdgd Nejhrjjfnnf
Archived post

29 November 2005, 19:54 UTC #6

I find the more I do. I go back thru the mouth, every thing I done in
past is all different to me now.
I feel pain when the earth is moved.
turns out to be fireman. this big hill by barn is now flat around well.
Dumb yah!
drizzle was here and a surveyor.
they gone. he went to oh hello.....
who cares. blinked and it well change. explains why after 11 year there
pinked and the brain me n .oh forget it.
You no what I don't care any more.
inn short I got screwed, run over by the system. the end by by
od man is me what else is new.
zero changes.
well the road is level to the drive way again been 2 or 3 years since
that happen
good thing.
water level stays the same no matter were it is......... chronic
person all ways talks to oh well I am.....
so cartoons show plays and there me again.to be retired........
it is different is I never get or got paid. and them they do.......
I still have my truck batt dead butt in shape.....I could always crank
it some day.and fireman got wells.....
why need roads....good question....
drainage. well under water.....and a slit manhole. now a $1000 for
that...so water can sit on it.
now that is some grass and a new fence neighbor.......were the 14 feet
of earth I know a lake over your driveway. and rock line. why rocks.I
know same as the drain tank. butt were is the fence.....ahhhhhhhgood
question grasshopper maybe for the flexes man.....
waiting for calf to mend......butt booing.chats all folks I gone.
and 1 more thing in orienting
I got the road level to the drive way after 2 to 3 years right.
today!
and irs says I can be a boss or someon or ones is putting my name and
add on there web pages.......as a boss
I ride a bike for past 3 years.
no got anyting after was top of trade after 25 to 30 years. and now ride
a bike yet 14 or 15 and 7 or 9 different state say I am a boss...and
evan have employees
and I never work and I never got paid when I went on my own after 25 to
plus years as a painter.
right...............
pending by irs. right
Question grass hoper. if I was your brother would this mean I would get
glass and be a nerd. or can I just say screw you
time is irrelevent I got 4000 miles
and 11.1111111
7 sister red from hell means your still a fagget......coward ass
licking scum sucking ninja you allways been
right........ BEEP BEEP
just becaus I never been caught...
ad in tee morn HE WELL STILL BE A [censored].
and short.....
Maxwell House coffee is the best.

Report
cruiser
Archived post

29 November 2005, 20:12 UTC #7

Are you really this bored "BikeeeeMeeeeeeee"?
39 -0500 said:
I find the more I do. I go back thru the mouth, every thing I done in
past is all different to me now.
I feel pain when the earth is moved.
turns out to be fireman. this big hill by barn is now flat around well.
Dumb yah!
drizzle was here and a surveyor.
they gone. he went to oh hello.....
who cares. blinked and it well change. explains why after 11 year there
pinked and the brain me n .oh forget it.
You no what I don't care any more.
inn short I got screwed, run over by the system. the end by by
od man is me what else is new.
zero changes.
well the road is level to the drive way again been 2 or 3 years since
that happen
good thing.
water level stays the same no matter were it is......... chronic
person all ways talks to oh well I am.....
so cartoons show plays and there me again.to be retired........
it is different is I never get or got paid. and them they do.......
I still have my truck batt dead butt in shape.....I could always crank
it some day.and fireman got wells.....
why need roads....good question....
drainage. well under water.....and a slit manhole. now a $1000 for
that...so water can sit on it.
now that is some grass and a new fence neighbor.......were the 14 feet
of earth I know a lake over your driveway. and rock line. why rocks.I
know same as the drain tank. butt were is the fence.....ahhhhhhhgood
question grasshopper maybe for the flexes man.....
waiting for calf to mend......butt booing.chats all folks I gone.
and 1 more thing in orienting
I got the road level to the drive way after 2 to 3 years right.
today!
and irs says I can be a boss or someon or ones is putting my name and
add on there web pages.......as a boss
I ride a bike for past 3 years.
no got anyting after was top of trade after 25 to 30 years. and now ride
a bike yet 14 or 15 and 7 or 9 different state say I am a boss...and
evan have employees
and I never work and I never got paid when I went on my own after 25 to
plus years as a painter.
right...............
pending by irs. right
Question grass hoper. if I was your brother would this mean I would get
glass and be a nerd. or can I just say screw you
time is irrelevent I got 4000 miles
and 11.1111111
7 sister red from hell means your still a fagget......coward ass
licking scum sucking ninja you allways been
right........ BEEP BEEP
just becaus I never been caught...
ad in tee morn HE WELL STILL BE A [censored].
and short.....
Maxwell House coffee is the best.

Report
Ozzie Gontang
Archived post

30 November 2005, 05:37 UTC #8

Daniel,
People that get into a panic state or are sobbing have the feeling that
they can't get enough air in. The reason being that they haven't gotten
enough air out. If you get enough air out, you can relax in for 1 or 2
or 3 or 4 steps. It's as if you create a negative pressure when you get
all the air out so that atmospheric pressure assists you on the in
breath.
The reason for the 8 out and 4 in is that when one is running your warm
up 11:15 min/mile you can breathe at that pace with one cycle of air
every 12 steps.
The issue here is that when one increases the cadence to 140 or 160
steps/minute that cadence can be an easy 11:15 min/mile pace or by
leaning from the ankle and therefore falling faster and covering more
ground; one must bring that same leg through a great range of motion and
distance to get the foot down under one's center of gravity.
The work is bringing the leg through a bigger eliptical cycle of the
foot to keep the cadence the same.
Doing more work because one is going faster; doing more work because one
is going up him; doing more work because one's muscle glycogen is
diminished during the last few miles of one's marathon, all require more
oxygen to keep the brain from going into panic and from the muscles from
going into oxygen debt.
This is where the playing with the breathing rhythms comes into play.
Maintaining the same cadence
Leaning from the ankle
My speed (falling forward) increases
And to maintain that increase at a steady rate
I will use a lower breath pattern
to maintain the air intake I need
so that brain and muscles stay oxygenated.
Also the idea is that I exchange the same volume of air
whether I am breathing 8 out 4 in or 2 out 1 in.
If you want to see some of the posture stuff, go to Romanov's video
series on http://www.posetech.com and check out the Pose/Lean/Pull
series.
I agree with him about landing on the ball, I may differ in that I teach
that the heel does touch. I think he says that also otherwise one could
not hold the POSE if resting only on the ball of the foot.
Anyway, some things to think about.
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
[email hidden]
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp
Quoted message said:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:31:10 GMT, Ozzie Gontang
<[email hidden]> wrote in part :
Quoted message said:
. . .
. . . it's GAPO at it's best.
Shouldn't that be *The* G.A.P.O. ? :-)
Quoted message said:
. . .
So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8..
Then as I need more air I go to a
4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2 cycles of air every 24 steps
4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11 steps
4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps
4in/5out; 1 cycle of air every 9 steps
4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8 steps 3 cycles of air every 24 steps
3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 7 steps
3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles of air every 24 steps
2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps
2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24 steps
1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps
. . .
Quoted message said:
In article <[email hidden]>,
Daniel <[email hidden]> wrote:
You have reminded me of a question.
I am a believer in using the formula "In" plus "Out" equals "Odd
Number" (alternating the leading foot) -- as a
diaphragm-stitch-prevention measure -- at least until the demands of
intervals or hills require 2/2 or 1/1.
Being a newbie runner in an aging body (48 years) I tend to start out
extra slow (it works out to something like 11:15 mile pace) with
nose-only breathing four in five out. By the time I'm at 9:15 mile
pace or so my breathing is usually 3 in 4 out, through mouth and nose.
Anyway I recall reading somewhere about "Rhino Breathing" -- leafing
through "Running with the Buffaloes" at the book store maybe? --
meaning on hard uphills or faster running, one or two steps to the
inhale then a really hard fast forced exhalation.
Here's the question: I notice your patterns above are either even or
slower out than in. Why? And: Is there ever an advantage to *faster*
out than in?
Peace,
--
Daniel
[email hidden]

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Ozzie Gontang
Archived post

30 November 2005, 06:08 UTC #9

In article <[email hidden]>,
David Geesaman said:
"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ozzie Gontang said:
The various breathing patterns you can use while running at cadence.
I've been reading about these breathing patterns for years. I've tried
them, but they never seemed right. Maybe I need to give it more time.
I've always felt that it wasn't right to have to think so hard about
something that should be natural.
I suppose for someone lacking experience, it may help to focus on
breathing as an indirect means to achieving relaxation and efficiency.
Maybe it means more during a marathon than it does the 10ks and 10milers
that my experience is based on.
Personally, I think it's getting away from the job of one's mind during
a race: to push harder and stay efficient. That just means (to me) to relax
my shoulders, relax my abdomen, adjust my torso posture, relax my hands and
arms, relax my jaw and neck, and focus on moving faster without pushing
harder. To remain relaxed and be able to follow the ebb and flow of pace
during the run makes more sense to me than to focus on internal metronomes
that don't adjust for hills, wind, packs, etc.
Toward the end of the race, my mind is about focusing on the desired
result - a pass, a fast finish, the top of a tough hill. To think about
breathing is simply a very low priority.
Dave
Dave,
My mind stays relaxed when it knows that the lungs are supplying enough
air so that there is no oxygen debt. Part of the scanning that
you're speaking about regarding shoulders, jaw, hands is to keep them
relaxed because any unnecessary muscle tension requires oxygen to be
wasted to maintain the unnecessary tension.
For me, going up hill the mantra is: Steeper the hill, shorter the
step. That is while I am maintaining the same posture and more than
likely shortening my breathing cycle to stay comfortably in an aerobic
state.
In coordinating breathe with cadence, my cadence remains the same with
my breath cycle shortening or lengthening as required by the increased
or slowed speed; increased or decreased effort from up hill or even
surface; or increased breathe because of muscle glycogen depletion.
While it is true, I don't need to think about breathing as my body will
breathe me depending on the exertion; I also know the power of
controlled breath used in the shooting of guns and bows; of a yogi or
kung fu master in quiet the body or exert extreme force.
All I know is that I've always wanted to keep my brain from panic that I
can create by unnecessary tension while exercising or from freaking out
because it's going into oxygen debt as I run into an anaerobic state.
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
[email hidden]
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

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Ozzie Gontang
Archived post

30 November 2005, 06:40 UTC #10

In article <[email hidden]>,
Charlie Pendejo said:
Phil M. said:
I've always felt that it wasn't right to have to think so hard
about something that should be natural.
Thus far I'm with you, Phil. The fact that so many of my animal
brethren adopt these patterns, presumably without thinking too hard
about them, would seem to argue against the need for my conscious
intervention - unless it's necessary to counteract some other ill which
has snuck in via human consciousness or modern lifestyle or whatever.
But I'm not feeling very hardcore unwavering absolutist on this one and
won't be entirely shocked to some day join the believers.
OTOH I do believe, for instance, that many (<-- cop-out word) of us can
benefit from attention to running form, despite running being such a
"natural" activity and the body's myriad automatic adjustments et
cetera, all of which convinces some folks that it's best to let the
body do what it wants, and apparently that anything we consciously do
about form can only screw us up.
Pendejo, breathing agnostic
Charlie,
When people get frightened, panic, scared, anxious, or just deep in
thought, the tendency is for them to hold their breath or breathe very
shallow. After 30 years of coaching runners and also doing counseling
therapy with people, the one word I've most frequently used in "Breathe."
For over 25 years, I've coached runners and marathoners on what I've
considered proper running form and style: ball/heel. It's what I've
continued to share on rec.running that it is about proper form and style.
With the work of Romanov and his POSE Method and Danny Dreyer's
ChiRunning, I believe that I've been joined by two others who have
realized that what is natural isn't natural to the majority of the human
race who are afraid of falling as seen in the way they/we walk; and then
is translated into the way we run which is heel strike. And most
rec.runners soon learn I can only heel strike if I am overstriding.
What's really great is that rec.running is not about believers rather
empiricists who see what works best and then do it. It's folklore in so
far as when someone comes up with a better explanation, idea, concept,
way of describing something, others may doubt it because of their own
set thinking yet many will play with it to see if there's any validity.
And then the Donovans, the Steves, the Georges, the Daves, the Dots, The
Phils, the Charlies, the anders, the Tims, the Toms, the Eds, you bring
another perspective, another view, a different perception, a novel
thought, a new look at this "natural" activity called running that gives
it a twist that "natural" may be common knowledge and after some thought
that common knowledge may be common and incorrect.
What is amazing about the body is how it adapts to what we practice in
our standing, sitting and moving. As we are what we eat so we are how we
stand, sit and move.
As I said years ago: Running is a dance. You can do it gracefully or
clumsily. Go for the grace!

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Tim Downie
Archived post

30 November 2005, 08:34 UTC #11

"Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gontang-.
Quoted message said:

All I know is that I've always wanted to keep my brain from panic that I
can create by unnecessary tension while exercising or from freaking out
because it's going into oxygen debt as I run into an anaerobic state.
Hm... actively controlling your respiration to prevent you worrying about
something that doesn't *need* to be worried about because it's entirely self
regulating seems odd logic to me.
By the same logic, I *could* go to yoga classes and learn to control my
heart rate perhaps to stop me worrying about my heart not doing its job
properly but I think that would be equally daft.
Tim

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Twittering One
Archived post

30 November 2005, 08:40 UTC #12

"Her curtain lifts,
Her saddle slips, her lips curl.
~ Of Oooo!
Such a pretty girl
Quoted message said:
From The Cantering Equine Of Sable Stanzas ~ !"

~ Don Von
"And many a gambol frolick'd o'er the ground,
And sleights of art and feats of strength went round;
And still as each repeated pleasure tir'd,
Succeeding sports the mirthful band inspir'd;
The dancing pair that simply sought renown,
By holding out to tire each other down ..."
~ Oliver Goldsmith,
Quoted message said:
From "The Deserted Village"

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Charlie
Archived post

30 November 2005, 11:47 UTC #13

Tim Downie said:
Hm... actively controlling your respiration to prevent you worrying about
something that doesn't *need* to be worried about because it's entirely self
regulating seems odd logic to me.
By the same logic, I *could* go to yoga classes and learn to control my
heart rate perhaps to stop me worrying about my heart not doing its job
properly but I think that would be equally daft.
For once I agree with Tim. An obvious troll.

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David Geesaman
Archived post

30 November 2005, 13:34 UTC #14

"Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
While it is true, I don't need to think about breathing as my body will
breathe me depending on the exertion; I also know the power of
controlled breath used in the shooting of guns and bows; of a yogi or
kung fu master in quiet the body or exert extreme force.
All I know is that I've always wanted to keep my brain from panic that I
can create by unnecessary tension while exercising or from freaking out
because it's going into oxygen debt as I run into an anaerobic state.
My background doesn't involve much shooting, but I know the criticality
of breath control. I just never felt it was worth applying to my running,
to the point of beating out a cadence. I'm sure it happens naturally, but I
don't think about it beyond recognizing when I'm breathing hard vs.
breathing easy. I guess that's why I'm not a drummer.
I feel that good, negative split tempo runs made the biggest difference
in handling intense pace and maintaining relaxation. The idea of 'panic'
seems far-fetched for an experienced runner.
Dave

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David Geesaman
Archived post

30 November 2005, 13:34 UTC #15

"Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
While it is true, I don't need to think about breathing as my body will
breathe me depending on the exertion; I also know the power of
controlled breath used in the shooting of guns and bows; of a yogi or
kung fu master in quiet the body or exert extreme force.
All I know is that I've always wanted to keep my brain from panic that I
can create by unnecessary tension while exercising or from freaking out
because it's going into oxygen debt as I run into an anaerobic state.
My background doesn't involve much shooting, but I know the criticality
of breath control. I just never felt it was worth applying to my running,
to the point of beating out a cadence. I'm sure it happens naturally, but I
don't think about it beyond recognizing when I'm breathing hard vs.
breathing easy. I guess that's why I'm not a drummer.
I feel that good, negative split tempo runs made the biggest difference
in handling intense pace and maintaining relaxation. The idea of 'panic'
seems far-fetched for an experienced runner.
Dave

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David Geesaman
Archived post

30 November 2005, 13:34 UTC #16

"Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
While it is true, I don't need to think about breathing as my body will
breathe me depending on the exertion; I also know the power of
controlled breath used in the shooting of guns and bows; of a yogi or
kung fu master in quiet the body or exert extreme force.
All I know is that I've always wanted to keep my brain from panic that I
can create by unnecessary tension while exercising or from freaking out
because it's going into oxygen debt as I run into an anaerobic state.
My background doesn't involve much shooting, but I know the criticality
of breath control. I just never felt it was worth applying to my running,
to the point of beating out a cadence. I'm sure it happens naturally, but I
don't think about it beyond recognizing when I'm breathing hard vs.
breathing easy. I guess that's why I'm not a drummer.
I feel that good, negative split tempo runs made the biggest difference
in handling intense pace and maintaining relaxation. The idea of 'panic'
seems far-fetched for an experienced runner.
Dave

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David Geesaman
Archived post

30 November 2005, 13:34 UTC #17

"Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
While it is true, I don't need to think about breathing as my body will
breathe me depending on the exertion; I also know the power of
controlled breath used in the shooting of guns and bows; of a yogi or
kung fu master in quiet the body or exert extreme force.
All I know is that I've always wanted to keep my brain from panic that I
can create by unnecessary tension while exercising or from freaking out
because it's going into oxygen debt as I run into an anaerobic state.
My background doesn't involve much shooting, but I know the criticality
of breath control. I just never felt it was worth applying to my running,
to the point of beating out a cadence. I'm sure it happens naturally, but I
don't think about it beyond recognizing when I'm breathing hard vs.
breathing easy. I guess that's why I'm not a drummer.
I feel that good, negative split tempo runs made the biggest difference
in handling intense pace and maintaining relaxation. The idea of 'panic'
seems far-fetched for an experienced runner.
Dave

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steve common
Archived post

30 November 2005, 13:45 UTC #18

Tim Downie said:
Hm... actively controlling your respiration to prevent you worrying about
something that doesn't *need* to be worried about because it's entirely self
regulating seems odd logic to me.
It's self-regulating, but it's not necessarily using the right parameters
for optimal racing.
The unconscious self-regulation is not built for maintaining optimal
running performance when you're having to force yourself to ignore
side-stitch, self-doubt, urinary urges, while some totally arbitrary goal
clock is ticking over, and some annoying drafter is imposing his
"Boom-boom Minter" breathing style in your neck.
There's no dangerous animal behind you trying to eat your children here,
so the effect of a vagabonding consciousness can be very much at odds with
what you are trying to achieve, thus forcing the self-regulation to do
counter-productive things.
Being able to channel the conscious part so that it will push in the right
direction, for the activity being undertaken, helps your self-regulation
to do the right job. And that's what it's all about, I think.

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steve common
Archived post

30 November 2005, 13:47 UTC #19

Ozzie Gontang said:
You may begin to realize that running a marathon during the later part of
the run from 15 onwards is a matter of running in a trance state. It is
through these breathing patterns I have taught people to play with the
rhythms of their breath to keep on going.
....snip...
Quoted message said:
Some people begin to realize the power of rhythm.
Amen

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steve common
Archived post

30 November 2005, 13:50 UTC #20

Ozzie Gontang said:
When people get frightened, panic, scared, anxious,
....snip...
Quoted message said:
the tendency is for them to hold their breath or breathe very
shallow.
I think that this (plus the influence of the side stitch, unless that came
on because of the shallow breathing...) is exactly what happened to me on
Sunday, between km 30 and 32.

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