Breathing - Swimming - Improved Efficiency?

In article said:

From the beginning of my runs to the end its a constant
struggle to get enough air.

I have changed from swimming ever 2nd stroke to every
4th stroke. It makes me take deeper breaths and hold
them longer.

Can this improve my breathing efficiency, making more O2
available and so improve or be beneficial to my running?

Are any breathing excercises worth doing?

How should I breathe when I run?

Once every 6 steps (3-3) or 3 times every 8 steps (3-3-2) is
enough when you're running at an easy pace. When you're
racing or running hard, once every 4 steps works well.

It's worth noting that breathing efficiency is not a major
limiting factor in performance (even though you may feel
yourself gasping for air)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Body weight and height please.

Sounds like you are overweight. The more weight you carry
the more of a struggle it will be to get in enough air.

Swimming is a terrible sport to include with running
unless you are just talking about one or two laps around
the pool. Swimming puts on upper body muscle bulk which
you seriously don't want for running. In fact swimming a
lot will make you gain weight and so make your running
more difficult and even harder to get in enough air.

[email hidden] (Paul Eaton) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

From the beginning of my runs to the end its a constant
struggle to get enough air.

I have changed from swimming ever 2nd stroke to every
4th stroke. It makes me take deeper breaths and hold
them longer.

Can this improve my breathing efficiency, making more O2
available and so improve or be beneficial to my running?

Are any breathing excercises worth doing?

How should I breathe when I run?

Paul

Quoted message said:

Swimming is a terrible sport to include with running
unless you are just talking about one or two laps around
the pool. Swimming puts on upper body muscle bulk which
you seriously don't want for running. In fact swimming a
lot will make you gain weight and so make your running
more difficult and even harder to get in enough air.

A lot of world-class Tri-athletes are going to be
disappointed to hear you say that. Those poor guys have
actually been thinking they were fit!

In article <slrnc6iv2v.9g9>, Donovan Rebbechi wrote to Paul Eaton:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How should I breathe when I run?

Once every 6 steps (3-3) or 3 times every 8 steps (3-3-2)
is enough when you're running at an easy pace. When you're
racing or running hard, once every 4 steps works well.

It's worth noting that breathing efficiency is not a major
limiting factor in performance (even though you may feel
yourself gasping for air)

Cheers,

A Guide to Breathing Patterns and Rhythms

If running is falling and catching yourself gracefully,
you can run faster by falling faster while keeping the
same cadence. To assist you from running out of air, this
guide gives you a way to change your breath into your
gears for running faster while maintaining the same
cadence while running.

A Guide to Breathing Patterns and Rhythms

Arthur Dent said:

I've been experimenting on recent long runs with different
ways to keep

from going too fast too early, which invariably causes me to
run much slower at the end.

Quoted message said:

My breathing experiment seemed to be quite successful. On
my last long

run, an 18-miler, I consciously held myself to a 4-in, 4-out
pattern for the first 6 miles. By only running as fast as I
could comfortably run with this pattern, my pace was a nice
and slow 8-8.5 minutes/mile (MPM).

Quoted message said:

Then, at the 6-mile mark, I shifted to a 3-in, 4-out
pattern for 3 miles.

And, at 9 miles, I shifted to a 3-in, 3-out for the next 4
miles. By this point, I was doing a steady 8 MPM. At mile
13, I shifted to 2-in, 3-out and, finally, for the last 3
miles, I kicked it into high gear (i.e., 2-in, 2-out) and
slowly accelerated to my hoped-for marathon race pace, doing
my last mile in 7:23. It was a good feeling to know< that I
could run a 7:23 mile, without killing myself, after having
already run 17 miles (and this was my first time running the
18-mile< distance!). All-in-all, I averaged 8 MPM, with
first mile being 8:13, then gradually slowing to 8:40 at
mile 6, then gradually speeding up as I moved to faster
breathing patterns. Is this a good long-run pace for someone
hoping to do a marathon at 7:20 pace?

Quoted message said:

Does anyone else use this technique? And what about for
the race itself?

For the race itself, I'd like to do the first few miles at
7:50 pace, then accelerate to 7:20 by maybe the 4-5 mile
mark, maintaining 7:20 until the half, then pushing to 7:15
to make up for the early slowness, and, finally, for the
last few miles just hoping to hold onto 7:20....

Quoted message said:

I think that I can do the above negative splitting by
consciously

constraining myself to slower breathing patterns at the
start, but is this an inefficient way to control pace? Would
I be better off if I could hold the desired pace while
freely allowing myself to move to faster breathing patterns?
Or does consciously sticking to slower breathing patterns at
the start have the favorable effect of not only limiting
pace, but also of speeding the transition from glycogen-
burning to fat-burning? Does it take more oxygen to burn
glycogen than it does to burn fat? AD

Arthur,

A man after my own lungs. Here's a post that I have grown
into what I call Breathing Rhythms and Patterns. Hopefully
helping to increase your own folklore on breathing. As you
allude to, the breathing becomes the gears to keep fueling
the body with enough O2 to keep the body metabolizing its
stores of energy.

Breathing Rhythms & Patterns
c.1999, 2000 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.

Next to proper running form and style and an integral part
of proper running is breathing and the rhythms of breath.

Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same
cadence and be running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile
faster. The issue is getting the leg through its cycle to
touch the ground maintaining the same cadence. This is where
the concept of running is falling and catching oneself
gracefully comes into play.

To that end, breathing becomes the next important factor in
maintaining an oxygen uptake to support the increased speed
while maintaining the same cadence turnover.

This is where I teach breathing at slower speeds to a 4
steps in and 4 to 8 steps out. The idea is that I am never
panicked and that my breathing sequences are always enough
to sustain the rate of turnover...which maintains at the
same cadence be it a 9 or 10 minute mile or a 5 minute or
better mile. For the young and for top runners, most never
think about breathing. However thinking about breathing
patterns and rhythms and practicing them will allow someone
who has played with or practiced them a possible advantage
if it allows them to stayed relaxed, concentrated and
focused under extreme stress.

So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8.. Then as I need
more air I go to a 4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2
cycles every 24 steps 4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11
steps 4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps 4in/5out; 1
cycle of air every 9 steps 4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8
steps 3 cycles every 24 steps 3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every
7 steps 3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles
every 24 steps 2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps
2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24
steps 1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every
24 steps 1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps

The ideal one goes for is the same volume at all rhythms.
Remember you're always breathing though the nose even when
the mouth is open...unless your nose is blocked, i.e. nasal
congestion.

All of these patterns are breathed at a rate so that the
mind stays calm and does not let any of the body
unnecessarily tighten up from a perceived stress beyond
one's capability.

The other aspect of breathing cycles is that an even
(symmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps in
& steps out total an even number, the runner is always
running on the same foot at intake and also at exhale.

With an odd (asymmetric) breathing pattern, which means
when the steps in & steps out total an odd number, the
runner is running off the opposite foot at initial intake
step of each breathing cycle in-three-steps/out-four-steps;
in-three-steps/out-four-steps:

in-two-three out-two-three-four in-two-three out-two-three-
four LFT-2 - 3--RT -two-three-four RT-two-three LFT-two-three-
four LFT-two-three... L 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 L 2 3...

In animals there is a breathing pattern which is called
phase locking. It has been photographed at high speeds in
horses, cheetahs, ostriches where at full speed there is one
pattern into which they fall. In humans, if I remember from
the research, there were found two phase lock patterns at
top speed.

So you can see if you breathe 2in/2out all the time and we
speed up you can only continue to do what you do. You only
get 6 cycles of air every 24 steps. Whereas I can pick up
the speed and get 8 cycles or even 9 cycles of air every
24 steps...and if I practice I can get 10 or 12 cycles
every 24 steps.

You may begin to realize that running a marathon during the
later part of the run from 15 onwards is a matter of running
in a trance state. It is through these breathing patterns I
have taught people to play with the rhythms of their breath
to keep on going. So for someone whose muscles are glycogen
depleted I need to maintain the same running pace but
increase the amount of oxygen to those muscles...and that is
where the breathing patterns come in.

Some people begin to realize the power of rhythm. When I run
with a partner and we are doing symmetric breathing of
2in/2out or 3in/3out or 4in/4out, I do reciprocal breathing
so that after 3 or 4 minutes as they breathe out I am
breathing in and as they breathe in I am breathing out. The
sound can be heard. The experience is that the other
person's out breath is breathing me. On the next cycle my
out breath is breathing his/her in breath.

Eyes on the horizon, breathing reciprocally with my partner,
the miles covered in trance are an experience to remember.

When into the breathing and at different breathing patterns
both symmetric and asymmetric and some being reciprocal, the
breathing patterns of 3 or 4 or 5 of us mixed with the foot
touch (rather than foot fall)can carry a group of runners
easily for miles where the mind scans the body to relax any
tension as it arises and lets it go...going back to the
sound of the feet running together and the breathe of the
pack. If you've seen Stomp you know the power of rhythm!

Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ faqs.orgbyOpen ↗
newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running mindfulness.commr.aspOpen ↗

[email hidden] (macelroy) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Body weight and height please.

43yo, 6'1", 170lb

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you are overweight.

No obviously!

Quoted message said:

The more weight you carry the more

So I have no excuse?

Quoted message said:

of a struggle it will be to get in enough air.

Its a struggle for me to do 10K in one hour. I am
gradually getting 'faster' but its very slow progress,
just trying to build base, currently at 20mpw, only
started running mid Dec 2003.

Quoted message said:

Swimming is a terrible sport to include with running
unless you are just talking about one or two laps
around the pool.

Normally about 3 x 2.5Km per week

Quoted message said:

Swimming puts on upper body muscle bulk

Some maybe at 2.5km at steady 1:40 per 100 pace, also I
don't have that type of build (tall and 'sleek'😉

Quoted message said:

which you seriously don't want for running.

It strengthens the core muscles? which I think I do want
for running

Quoted message said:

In fact swimming a lot will make you gain weight and so
make your running more difficult and even harder to get in
enough air.

Maybe I am destined to be a slow runner, I might just have
to get used to this.

Swimming prevents me from gaining weight.

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Paul Eaton) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

From the beginning of my runs to the end its a constant
struggle to get enough air.

I have changed from swimming ever 2nd stroke to every
4th stroke. It makes me take deeper breaths and hold
them longer.

Can this improve my breathing efficiency, making more O2
available and so improve or be beneficial to my running?

Are any breathing excercises worth doing?

How should I breathe when I run?

Paul

The world's best world-class Tri-athlete can not even outrun
LA's top 20 high school runners for the 3200 meter run.
There's a reason for that and it ain't because their upper
bodies are bone thin.

[email hidden] (TopCounsel) wrote in message news:<20040330174152.21720.00000401@mb-
m13.aol.com>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Swimming is a terrible sport to include with running
unless you are just talking about one or two laps around
the pool. Swimming puts on upper body muscle bulk which
you seriously don't want for running. In fact swimming a
lot will make you gain weight and so make your running
more difficult and even harder to get in enough air.

A lot of world-class Tri-athletes are going to be
disappointed to hear you say that. Those poor guys have
actually been thinking they were fit!

On 3/31/04 8:49 PM, in article
[email hidden], "macelroy"

Quoted message said:

The world's best world-class Tri-athlete can not even
outrun LA's top 20 high school runners for the 3200 meter
run. There's a reason for that and it ain't because their
upper bodies are bone thin.

And how would you know the 3200 meter run times for the
worlds best tri-athletes? Please post recent 3200 meter race
times for these athletes noting the athlete's name, the race
location and the date.

"macelroy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The world's best world-class Tri-athlete can not even
outrun LA's top 20 high school runners for the 3200 meter
run. There's a reason for that and it ain't because their
upper bodies are bone thin.

Would this be a one tri guy against a 20x3200 relay team? I
don't think even a top ultra runner such as yourself could
win that race.

In article said:

Quoted message said:

The world's best world-class Tri-athlete can not even
outrun LA's top 20 high school runners for the 3200 meter
run. There's a reason for that and it ain't because their
upper bodies are bone thin.

Not remotely true of course, nor is it based on anything
other than delusional speculation. But what's more
significant is just how wide of the mark this reply is.
The Hawaii Ironman Triathlon includes a full marathon
(26.2 miles), 112-mile cycle event, and a 2.4-mile rough
water swim. What's the relevance to a 3200m time (approx.
2 puny miles -- a "sprint" more or less these days), when
the best-known "tri" event includes a full marathon? Even
the shorter "olympic" triathlon events are still 10,000m -
run; 24.8 miles - cycling; and 0.93 mile - swim.

At least based on record times, you multiply by about 5 to
get a comparable running distance. But even then, the swim
is somewhat shorter than the run and the cycle. I think one
of the arguments used is that there is less variance in
cycling times (for example) which justifies making the cycle
longer in duration. I believe this has been the subject of
some controversy, though I'm too far from the "triathlon
community" to really know. Maybe Cam can explain
it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
TopCounsel wrote:

I think one of the arguments used is that there is
less variance

Quoted message said:

in cycling times (for example) which justifies making
the cycle longer in duration. I believe this has been
the subject of some controversy, though I'm too far
from the "triathlon community" to really know. Maybe
Cam can explain
it.

I believe the original triathlons were actually 3 different
established races performed consecutively, then they got
merged into one event (at least based on one account that I
read - which could be wrong) and now regard them as
disciplines since the transition is really important. The
durations are an artifact of those original races, I
believe. There is talk occasionally on rst of having
triathlons with equal durations of all 3 events. One of the
oldest triathlons (Seawolf in December) in US is up here.

Dot a winter tri was my first race and my only road race,
but wasn't Seawolf

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[email hidden] (Paul Eaton) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

From the beginning of my runs to the end its a constant
struggle to get enough air.

I have changed from swimming ever 2nd stroke to every
4th stroke. It makes me take deeper breaths and hold
them longer.

Can this improve my breathing efficiency, making more O2
available and so improve or be beneficial to my running?

Are any breathing excercises worth doing?

How should I breathe when I run?

Not like when you swim, for sure. When I used to swim
competitively in High School (which was very boring and I
was so glad I got turned on to running because you can do it
outdoors and enjoy the scenery and chicks that run look so
much better than chicks that swim), our coach taught us to
breath during the free-style stroke by taking a gulp of air
when your head came out, then going back down and slowly
exhaling underwater for 4-6 strokes (some guys could do it
longer, but I didn't have the lung capacity, which is maybe
why I can't run any faster than I do), coming back up for
another gulp, and repeat. How does this apply to breathing
during running? Not very much, if you ask me.

[email hidden] (Grandepatzer) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Paul Eaton) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

From the beginning of my runs to the end its a constant
struggle to get enough air.

I have changed from swimming ever 2nd stroke to every
4th stroke. It makes me take deeper breaths and hold
them longer.

Can this improve my breathing efficiency, making more O2
available and so improve or be beneficial to my running?

Are any breathing excercises worth doing?

How should I breathe when I run?

Not like when you swim, for sure. When I used to swim
competitively in High School (which was very boring and I
was so glad I got turned on to running because you can do
it outdoors and enjoy the scenery and chicks that run
look so much better than chicks that swim), our coach
taught us to breath during the free-style stroke by
taking a gulp of air when your head came out, then going
back down and slowly exhaling underwater for 4-6 strokes
(some guys could do it longer, but I didn't have the lung
capacity, which is maybe why I can't run any faster than
I do), coming back up for another gulp, and repeat. How
does this apply to breathing during running? Not very
much, if you ask me.

Can this improve my breathing efficiency, making more O2
available and so improve or be beneficial to my running?

Guess nobody has an answer for this. I have halfed the
amount of breathing (ie the no. of breaths) I am doing while
swimming, if at any point I stop I am definately more out of
breath than I was previously (more O2 debt) but I am able to
do the same workout ( although its harder to push the pace
to pass). Am I just learning to take deeper breaths or be
more efficient or a combination of both?