Broken Open Pro rim

aka Jobst Brandt said:

...
And remember to put a drop of oil on each nipple/eyelet interface
after all the spokes have been transferred....

Why not a dab of grease instead?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

aka Russell Seaton said:

...I don't have much to do in my life,...

Government employee?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

jim beam said:

[email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Non drive side spokes are pulling out the eyelets.

[...]

Quoted message said:

that makes no sense. wood cracks when over-stressed, not when it's
relaxed. that's the same situation with your rim - it cracks when
over-tensioned. the non-drive side is at about half the tension of the
drive side - there's no mechanical mechanism that can cause the failure
you describe [unless there's some weird lateral loading thing going on
which you're not revealing].

It is a mystery. I wonder if the greater angle where the nipple leaves
the rim on the NDS could have something to do with it.

Another possibility is perhaps tension increases in use on the NDS for
some reason.

I know that's not supposed to happen, but when you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable etc.

Ben C said:

jim beam said:

[email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Non drive side spokes are pulling out the eyelets.

[...]

Quoted message said:

that makes no sense. wood cracks when over-stressed, not when it's
relaxed. that's the same situation with your rim - it cracks when
over-tensioned. the non-drive side is at about half the tension of the
drive side - there's no mechanical mechanism that can cause the failure
you describe [unless there's some weird lateral loading thing going on
which you're not revealing].

It is a mystery. I wonder if the greater angle where the nipple leaves
the rim on the NDS could have something to do with it.

afaik, the open pro eyelet accommodates these angles so it shouldn't be
an issue.

Quoted message said:

Another possibility is perhaps tension increases in use on the NDS for
some reason.

I know that's not supposed to happen, but when you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable etc.

i think we need to see pics.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

that makes no sense. wood cracks when over-stressed, not when it's
relaxed. that's the same situation with your rim - it cracks when
over-tensioned. the non-drive side is at about half the tension of the
drive side - there's no mechanical mechanism that can cause the failure
you describe [unless there's some weird lateral loading thing going on
which you're not revealing].

Fud, fud, a-fudding we will go.....

Jambo' [email protected] said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

that makes no sense. wood cracks when over-stressed, not when it's
relaxed. that's the same situation with your rim - it cracks when
over-tensioned. the non-drive side is at about half the tension of the
drive side - there's no mechanical mechanism that can cause the failure
you describe [unless there's some weird lateral loading thing going on
which you're not revealing].

Fud, fud, a-fudding we will go.....

Got any ideas re: that kind of rim failure, genius? Or is that beyond
yer capabilities?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Oct 17, 5:58 pm, "[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> One of my rear Open Pro wheels succumbed to the cracks around
>>> eyelets problem. 32 spoke. DT 14/15 gauge. Brass nipples. 3
>>> cross both sides. 1998 Chorus hub. Wheel was built Fall 2001 with
>>> new rim and spokes. Original rim broke in a crash in Spring 2001.
>>> Thousands and thousands of miles on the wheel. All of the cracks
>>> are on the non drive side eyelets. Seems odd since the non drive
>>> side spokes have the least tension. Several of the non drive side
>>> eyelets have short cracks extending out from them. One of the
>>> eyelets has long cracks from it. And the sides of the rim around
>>> that eyelet also have cracks in it. Pretty soon I would expect that
>>> 2 inch section of rim to be pulled completely away.
>>> I'm going to rebuild the wheel with a new Open Pro rim I already
>>> own. I know the spokes will fit. I plan to reuse the spokes since
>>> they seem strong enough to rip apart the rim without breaking. And
>>> have lasted thousands and thousands of miles.
<snipped>
> But why did the non drive side eyelets develop the cracks and not the
> drive side eyelets? The non drive side spokes don't have any pressure
> on the rim/eyelets compared to the drive side.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Oct 17, 8:15 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Did you build the now failed wheel yourself, or did you have it built
on your used hub? Was the rim a known new, never laced/tensioned rim
at the time ot the build?- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Non drive side spokes are pulling out the eyelets. All cracks are on
the non drive side. No cracks on the drive side that I could see. 32
spoke silver Open Pro rim. 700C. 1998 Campagnolo Chorus hub. This
is about the third rim on that hub. First Open Pro broke in a crash
in 2001. Then I put on a rim that turned out to have a dent in it.
Also Open Pro. Then it was probably Fall of 2002, not Fall 2001 as I
stated earlier, that I put the current, now cracked Open Pro rim on.
Rim bought from Performance Bike. Brand new, never used, never laced
rim of course. Came wrapped in plastic from Performance. I ordered
one new rim, but Performance in their kindness sent two for the price
of one. Thus I have an extra waiting in the wings. This rim has not
been switched around on the hub to move the drive side to the non
drive side. I don't have much to do in my life, but I got enough to
do not to reverse rims for the heck of it. 3 cross lacing both
sides. Brass nipples both sides. DT 14/15 gauge spokes. Have not
broken any spokes since building the wheel. Pretty sure they were new
spokes in 2002 when this rim was installed. Hub has always been 3
cross lacing with all rims. Wheel built by me. Using my Spokey spoke
wrench that grabs all four corners of the brass nipples like a socket
wrench. I know Mr. Brandt does not like these, but I do. At the time
of building I am sure I used oil on the nipples. No thread locking
compound. Many thousands of miles on the wheels. I range between
160-195 pounds body weight plus another 20-30 pounds for the bike and
gear and water. Midwest riding mainly. Roads are usually OK.

jim beam said:

that makes no sense. wood cracks when over-stressed, not when it's
relaxed. that's the same situation with your rim - it cracks when
over-tensioned. the non-drive side is at about half the tension of the
drive side - there's no mechanical mechanism that can cause the failure
you describe [unless there's some weird lateral loading thing going on
which you're not revealing].

So, you're saying if it had cracked right-side-only it would be
unremarkable? We all got that far. What's up with Mr Seaton's actual
experience?

"Eppure si è spezzato" as Galileo might have said in this situation.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

aka Jobst Brandt said:

...
And remember to put a drop of oil on each nipple/eyelet interface
after all the spokes have been transferred....

Tom Sherman said:

Why not a dab of grease instead?

Do you also think 'special sauce' is more than catsup with mayonnaise?
Grease is just oil in a soap binder
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew Muzi mused:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

aka Jobst Brandt said:

...
And remember to put a drop of oil on each nipple/eyelet interface
after all the spokes have been transferred....

Tom Sherman said:

Why not a dab of grease instead?

Do you also think 'special sauce' is more than catsup with mayonnaise?

And ketchup is a vegetable. 😉

Quoted message said:

Grease is just oil in a soap binder

True of course, but the grease is less likely to drip on the floor,
which is a concern for the home mechanic (especially apartment dwellers).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

email hidden said:

But why did the non drive side eyelets develop the cracks and not the
drive side eyelets? The non drive side spokes don't have any pressure
on the rim/eyelets compared to the drive side.

Dear Russell,

It does seem odd that rim cracked around the spokes with less initial
tension.

If they lost all tension (rattling loose), would impact be a possible
explanation?

That is, the higher-tension drive-side spokes just see tension falling
and rising smoothly, but the lower-tension non-drive-side spokes might
be loose enough that they go bang-bang-bang against the rim as they
lose all tension momentairly and then reseat.

The distance involved must be tiny, but it's still an impact rather
than just tension rising and falling while the spoke nipples stay in
contact with the rim.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Sherman said:

Andrew Muzi mused:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...
> And remember to put a drop of oil on each nipple/eyelet interface
> after all the spokes have been transferred....

Tom Sherman said:

Why not a dab of grease instead?

Do you also think 'special sauce' is more than catsup with mayonnaise?

And ketchup is a vegetable. 😉

Quoted message said:

Grease is just oil in a soap binder

True of course, but the grease is less likely to drip on the floor,
which is a concern for the home mechanic (especially apartment dwellers).

Oil is good for wood floors.

--
Michael Press

Andrew Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And remember to put a drop of oil on each nipple/eyelet interface
after all the spokes have been transferred....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why not a dab of grease instead?

Quoted message said:

Do you also think 'special sauce' is more than catsup with mayonnaise?
Grease is just oil in a soap binder

And... it far easier to use a needle nosed oil can to place a drop of
oil at each spoke nipple that smearing grease in there. This is done
after the spokes are in place.

Del Monte spelled it Catsup, Heinz spells it Ketchup. Both are
pronounced the same.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

email hidden said:

But why did the non drive side eyelets develop the cracks and not the
drive side eyelets? The non drive side spokes don't have any pressure
on the rim/eyelets compared to the drive side.

Dear Russell,

It does seem odd that rim cracked around the spokes with less initial
tension.

If they lost all tension (rattling loose), would impact be a possible
explanation?

That is, the higher-tension drive-side spokes just see tension falling
and rising smoothly, but the lower-tension non-drive-side spokes might
be loose enough that they go bang-bang-bang against the rim as they
lose all tension momentairly and then reseat.

The distance involved must be tiny, but it's still an impact rather
than just tension rising and falling while the spoke nipples stay in
contact with the rim.

I rather suspect were that the case, the wheel would go out of true long,
LONG before the non-drive side cracks appeared. As the orignal poster
seems completely capable of determining which spokes are on the drive and
non-drive side, he would be extremely unlikely to have failed to notice the
lack of truth.

_ said:

Quoted message said:

email hidden said:

But why did the non drive side eyelets develop the cracks and not the
drive side eyelets? The non drive side spokes don't have any pressure
on the rim/eyelets compared to the drive side.

Dear Russell,

It does seem odd that rim cracked around the spokes with less initial
tension.

If they lost all tension (rattling loose), would impact be a possible
explanation?

That is, the higher-tension drive-side spokes just see tension falling
and rising smoothly, but the lower-tension non-drive-side spokes might
be loose enough that they go bang-bang-bang against the rim as they
lose all tension momentairly and then reseat.

The distance involved must be tiny, but it's still an impact rather
than just tension rising and falling while the spoke nipples stay in
contact with the rim.

I rather suspect were that the case, the wheel would go out of true long,
LONG before the non-drive side cracks appeared. As the orignal poster
seems completely capable of determining which spokes are on the drive and
non-drive side, he would be extremely unlikely to have failed to notice the
lack of truth.

Dear _,

Why would the rim go out of true before the rim cracks appeared if the
non-drive-side spokes go completely slack?

(I don't know if they were in fact going slack, I'm just wondering
what might cause the more lightly tensioned spokes to crack the rim.)

Nipples unscrewing?

Something else?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

_ said:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:58:46 -0700, "[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>But why did the non drive side eyelets develop the cracks and not the
>drive side eyelets? The non drive side spokes don't have any pressure
>on the rim/eyelets compared to the drive side.

Dear Russell,

It does seem odd that rim cracked around the spokes with less initial
tension.

If they lost all tension (rattling loose), would impact be a possible
explanation?

That is, the higher-tension drive-side spokes just see tension falling
and rising smoothly, but the lower-tension non-drive-side spokes might
be loose enough that they go bang-bang-bang against the rim as they
lose all tension momentairly and then reseat.

The distance involved must be tiny, but it's still an impact rather
than just tension rising and falling while the spoke nipples stay in
contact with the rim.

I rather suspect were that the case, the wheel would go out of true long,
LONG before the non-drive side cracks appeared. As the orignal poster
seems completely capable of determining which spokes are on the drive and
non-drive side, he would be extremely unlikely to have failed to notice the
lack of truth.

Dear _,

Why would the rim go out of true before the rim cracks appeared if the
non-drive-side spokes go completely slack?

(I don't know if they were in fact going slack, I'm just wondering
what might cause the more lightly tensioned spokes to crack the rim.)

Nipples unscrewing?

Got it in one, you clever boy.

_ said:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:13:22 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It does seem odd that rim cracked around the spokes with less initial
> tension.
>
> If they lost all tension (rattling loose), would impact be a possible
> explanation?
>
> That is, the higher-tension drive-side spokes just see tension falling
> and rising smoothly, but the lower-tension non-drive-side spokes might
> be loose enough that they go bang-bang-bang against the rim as they
> lose all tension momentairly and then reseat.
>
> The distance involved must be tiny, but it's still an impact rather
> than just tension rising and falling while the spoke nipples stay in
> contact with the rim.
>

I rather suspect were that the case, the wheel would go out of true long,
LONG before the non-drive side cracks appeared. As the orignal poster
seems completely capable of determining which spokes are on the drive and
non-drive side, he would be extremely unlikely to have failed to notice the
lack of truth.

Dear _,

Why would the rim go out of true before the rim cracks appeared if the
non-drive-side spokes go completely slack?

(I don't know if they were in fact going slack, I'm just wondering
what might cause the more lightly tensioned spokes to crack the rim.)

Nipples unscrewing?

Got it in one, you clever boy.

They don't necessarily unscrew though. OP used oil, not linseed or
threadlock, but even so, things can get gummed up or stick a bit.

Ben C said:

_ said:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:13:22 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> It does seem odd that rim cracked around the spokes with less initial
>> tension.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> If they lost all tension (rattling loose), would impact be a possible
>> explanation?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> That is, the higher-tension drive-side spokes just see tension falling
>> and rising smoothly, but the lower-tension non-drive-side spokes might
>> be loose enough that they go bang-bang-bang against the rim as they
>> lose all tension momentairly and then reseat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> The distance involved must be tiny, but it's still an impact rather
>> than just tension rising and falling while the spoke nipples stay in
>> contact with the rim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I rather suspect were that the case, the wheel would go out of true long,
>LONG before the non-drive side cracks appeared. As the orignal poster
>seems completely capable of determining which spokes are on the drive and
>non-drive side, he would be extremely unlikely to have failed to notice the
>lack of truth.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear _,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why would the rim go out of true before the rim cracks appeared if the
non-drive-side spokes go completely slack?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(I don't know if they were in fact going slack, I'm just wondering
what might cause the more lightly tensioned spokes to crack the rim.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nipples unscrewing?

Quoted message said:

Got it in one, you clever boy.

They don't necessarily unscrew though. OP used oil, not linseed or
threadlock, but even so, things can get gummed up or stick a bit.

Possible, but not likely. Most likely, the nipples will unscrew and
the NDS spokes will go slack. An experienced cyclist such as Mr.
Seaton would surely notice that slackness.

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 5:58 pm, "[email hidden]"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>> One of my rear Open Pro wheels succumbed to the cracks around
>>>> eyelets problem. 32 spoke. DT 14/15 gauge. Brass nipples. 3
>>>> cross both sides. 1998 Chorus hub. Wheel was built Fall 2001 with
>>>> new rim and spokes. Original rim broke in a crash in Spring 2001.
>>>> Thousands and thousands of miles on the wheel. All of the cracks
>>>> are on the non drive side eyelets. Seems odd since the non drive
>>>> side spokes have the least tension. Several of the non drive side
>>>> eyelets have short cracks extending out from them. One of the
>>>> eyelets has long cracks from it. And the sides of the rim around
>>>> that eyelet also have cracks in it. Pretty soon I would expect that
>>>> 2 inch section of rim to be pulled completely away.
>>>> I'm going to rebuild the wheel with a new Open Pro rim I already
>>>> own. I know the spokes will fit. I plan to reuse the spokes since
>>>> they seem strong enough to rip apart the rim without breaking. And
>>>> have lasted thousands and thousands of miles.
> <snipped>
>> But why did the non drive side eyelets develop the cracks and not the
>> drive side eyelets? The non drive side spokes don't have any pressure
>> on the rim/eyelets compared to the drive side.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Oct 17, 8:15 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> Did you build the now failed wheel yourself, or did you have it built
> on your used hub? Was the rim a known new, never laced/tensioned rim
> at the time ot the build?- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Non drive side spokes are pulling out the eyelets. All cracks are on
the non drive side. No cracks on the drive side that I could see. 32
spoke silver Open Pro rim. 700C. 1998 Campagnolo Chorus hub. This
is about the third rim on that hub. First Open Pro broke in a crash
in 2001. Then I put on a rim that turned out to have a dent in it.
Also Open Pro. Then it was probably Fall of 2002, not Fall 2001 as I
stated earlier, that I put the current, now cracked Open Pro rim on.
Rim bought from Performance Bike. Brand new, never used, never laced
rim of course. Came wrapped in plastic from Performance. I ordered
one new rim, but Performance in their kindness sent two for the price
of one. Thus I have an extra waiting in the wings. This rim has not
been switched around on the hub to move the drive side to the non
drive side. I don't have much to do in my life, but I got enough to
do not to reverse rims for the heck of it. 3 cross lacing both
sides. Brass nipples both sides. DT 14/15 gauge spokes. Have not
broken any spokes since building the wheel. Pretty sure they were new
spokes in 2002 when this rim was installed. Hub has always been 3
cross lacing with all rims. Wheel built by me. Using my Spokey spoke
wrench that grabs all four corners of the brass nipples like a socket
wrench. I know Mr. Brandt does not like these, but I do. At the time
of building I am sure I used oil on the nipples. No thread locking
compound. Many thousands of miles on the wheels. I range between
160-195 pounds body weight plus another 20-30 pounds for the bike and
gear and water. Midwest riding mainly. Roads are usually OK.

jim beam said:

that makes no sense. wood cracks when over-stressed, not when it's
relaxed. that's the same situation with your rim - it cracks when
over-tensioned. the non-drive side is at about half the tension of
the drive side - there's no mechanical mechanism that can cause the
failure you describe [unless there's some weird lateral loading thing
going on which you're not revealing].

So, you're saying if it had cracked right-side-only it would be
unremarkable?

i don't think "unremarkable" is the right way of saying it - that rim is
not known as being unreliable. better to say that it would be expected
if tension was too high.

cracking from tension being "too low", as is the case with non-drive
spokes, is like expecting an old campy record crank to fatigue when all
it's doing is propping up a wall in the garage.

Quoted message said:

We all got that far. What's up with Mr Seaton's actual
experience?

i'm waiting for the pics.

Quoted message said:

"Eppure si è spezzato" as Galileo might have said in this situation.

Ben C said:

_ said:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:13:22 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> It does seem odd that rim cracked around the spokes with less initial
>> tension.
>>
>> If they lost all tension (rattling loose), would impact be a possible
>> explanation?
>>
>> That is, the higher-tension drive-side spokes just see tension falling
>> and rising smoothly, but the lower-tension non-drive-side spokes might
>> be loose enough that they go bang-bang-bang against the rim as they
>> lose all tension momentairly and then reseat.
>>
>> The distance involved must be tiny, but it's still an impact rather
>> than just tension rising and falling while the spoke nipples stay in
>> contact with the rim.
>>
>
>I rather suspect were that the case, the wheel would go out of true long,
>LONG before the non-drive side cracks appeared. As the orignal poster
>seems completely capable of determining which spokes are on the drive and
>non-drive side, he would be extremely unlikely to have failed to notice the
>lack of truth.

Dear _,

Why would the rim go out of true before the rim cracks appeared if the
non-drive-side spokes go completely slack?

(I don't know if they were in fact going slack, I'm just wondering
what might cause the more lightly tensioned spokes to crack the rim.)

Nipples unscrewing?

Got it in one, you clever boy.

They don't necessarily unscrew though. OP used oil, not linseed or
threadlock, but even so, things can get gummed up or stick a bit.

Any "hammering" sufficient to cause rim cracking would loosen gummed up
threads long before rim cracking.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

cracking from tension being "too low", as is the case with non-drive
spokes, is like expecting an old campy record crank to fatigue when all
it's doing is propping up a wall in the garage.

Great, non-drive sidespokes = unused crank. Brilliant idiocy yet again from
beamboy.

Quoted message said:

i'm waiting for the pics.

Yeah, and let's hope he doesn't use sticky tape to position his Park
tensiometer in place.