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Buying on the net

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Road Cycling
Published
16 September 2004
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28 September 2004
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DRS
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  1. I've been happily buying stuff on the net for years. Only once did anything
    ever go wrong and that was easily rectified thanks to a responsive vendor.

    Until this year, that is. This year I've bought heaps of bike stuff on the
    net - or tried to, in some cases - and it's been one frustration after
    another. Well, I had one purchase go right, so credit to Rick Shapiro of
    Gear-To-Go Tandems(http://www.gtgtandems.com/) where credit is due, but the
    rest have been nightmares. What is it about bike shops that they can't do
    business on the net properly? I mean, in one case I had to get the local
    BBB involved, and I've never had to resort to them before.

    If they don't want to do business with people outside the US or Canada then
    fine. Just be up front and say so. But they should not say they take
    international orders and then stuff their customers around.

    My current nightmare is with Performance. A while back I wanted to buy some
    stuff from Nashbar but didn't because they don't use USPS and that's a deal
    killer because of the outrageous courier costs of UPS and FedEx. I read
    somewhere that Nashbar and Performance were owned by the same people or
    organisation or whatever, so I asked Performance if they used USPS for
    international orders and they said yes. No worries. I ordered some stuff.
    But the order confirmation email said ground shipping, which wasn't right
    according to my understanding, so I went to Performance's web site to try to
    track my order status before checking with them, only the system couldn't
    find my order. I duly fired off an email to customer service saying there
    was a problem with the system not finding my order and would they please
    check its shipping method.

    After much delay it turns out the [censored] cancelled my order. Only they
    didn't have the decency to tell me. If I hadn't queried them I'd still be
    blissfully waiting for my package and that's just not right.

    It turns out they can't automatically verify my credit card billing address
    with my bank. They didn't alert me to this problem. They didn't offer to
    work with me to resolve it. No, they just cancelled the order and left me
    hanging. The [censored].

    Now they say if I want I can order again but I have to pay with an
    international money order drawn in US funds. That costs me more and I'm not
    ordering from them for the privilege of paying more. It's not the only
    option either. There is an alternative, one I've had to use once before,
    which is to fax a photocopy of my credit card to them. It's an unduly
    paranoid pain in the [censored] but it's doable. I will not use a money order.
    Stuff them. I have a perfectly good credit card issued by the second
    biggest bank in Australia and apart from anything else I'm not giving up the
    protection it offers me. When it comes to security it's not all about them.

    Why do they have to make it so hard? What is it about bike shops that they
    are so clueless about doing business? I'm absolutely serious, I have never
    had any problems like this with any vendor in any other market segment on
    the net. It's only bike stuff. I won't bore you with the details of how
    other vendors of bike stuff have stuffed me around in ways great and small
    but I am absolutely fed up with their stupidity. Unfortunately
    organisations like Performance get away with being bureaucratic and
    unresponsive because they're on the other side of the world from their
    international customers. It's a shame.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  2. DRS wrote:
    ....

    Quoted message said:


    Why do they have to make it so hard? What is it about bike shops that they
    are so clueless about doing business? I'm absolutely serious, I have never
    had any problems like this with any vendor in any other market segment on
    the net. It's only bike stuff. I won't bore you with the details of how
    other vendors of bike stuff have stuffed me around in ways great and small
    but I am absolutely fed up with their stupidity. Unfortunately
    organisations like Performance get away with being bureaucratic and
    unresponsive because they're on the other side of the world from their
    international customers. It's a shame.


    I would recommend Airbomb. I had stuff sent to New Zealand and they
    never charged postage. Perhaps their prices include this, or they may
    have screwed up in my favour. Not sure but will definitely try them again.

  3. "tspoon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    DRS wrote:
    ...

    Quoted message said:


    Why do they have to make it so hard? What is it about bike shops
    that they are so clueless about doing business? I'm absolutely
    serious, I have never had any problems like this with any vendor in
    any other market segment on the net. It's only bike stuff. I won't
    bore you with the details of how other vendors of bike stuff have
    stuffed me around in ways great and small but I am absolutely fed up
    with their stupidity. Unfortunately organisations like Performance
    get away with being bureaucratic and unresponsive because they're on
    the other side of the world from their international customers.
    It's a shame.


    I would recommend Airbomb. I had stuff sent to New Zealand and they
    never charged postage. Perhaps their prices include this, or they may
    have screwed up in my favour. Not sure but will definitely try them
    again.

    Thanks but no thanks. They actually had one of the items I want and it's
    even a touch cheaper than at Performance. But there's no way I'm paying
    US$43 postage on a US$27.50 item.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  4. DRS said...

    Quoted message said:

    Why do they have to make it so hard? What is it about bike shops that they
    are so clueless about doing business? I'm absolutely serious, I have never
    had any problems like this with any vendor in any other market segment on
    the net. It's only bike stuff. I won't bore you with the details of how
    other vendors of bike stuff have stuffed me around in ways great and small
    but I am absolutely fed up with their stupidity. Unfortunately
    organisations like Performance get away with being bureaucratic and
    unresponsive because they're on the other side of the world from their
    international customers. It's a shame.

    I would say part of the problem is that they just don't have much
    experience with international customers, especially Australia. Consider
    the size of the markets, then consider how many people from Australia
    actually order from them. IME, the bike business is amateur hour
    compared to almost any other businesses. The pay is low and it isn't a
    large or fast growing market. Consider bike mechanics. The only
    qualification is that somebody hires you to be one. If ordering from
    them is a real money saver for you, if you are persistent with them, you
    may find someone who really knows what is going on and you may get
    justice. You might consider asking your bank for advice on international
    ordering.

  5. "SuperSlinky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    DRS said...

    Quoted message said:

    Why do they have to make it so hard? What is it about bike shops
    that they are so clueless about doing business? I'm absolutely
    serious, I have never had any problems like this with any vendor in
    any other market segment on the net. It's only bike stuff. I won't
    bore you with the details of how other vendors of bike stuff have
    stuffed me around in ways great and small but I am absolutely fed up
    with their stupidity. Unfortunately organisations like Performance
    get away with being bureaucratic and unresponsive because they're on
    the other side of the world from their international customers.
    It's a shame.

    I would say part of the problem is that they just don't have much
    experience with international customers, especially Australia.
    Consider the size of the markets, then consider how many people from
    Australia actually order from them.

    How much is that a chicken and egg situation, though? How many people don't
    bother because idiots like Performance make it too hard? Remember, not only
    did they cancel my order but they never told me!

    Quoted message said:

    IME, the bike business is amateur
    hour compared to almost any other businesses. The pay is low and it
    isn't a large or fast growing market. Consider bike mechanics. The
    only qualification is that somebody hires you to be one. If ordering
    from them is a real money saver for you, if you are persistent with
    them, you may find someone who really knows what is going on and you
    may get justice.

    Not by email, I won't. Emails are too easy to ignore (which is why I went
    the BBB route on another occasion). If I knew who the head honcho is at
    Performance I might send off a registered snail mail. I've done that
    before. CEO's can't say they didn't receive it because it has to be signed
    for and they generally don't like having their day spoiled by a customer
    complaining about the stupidity of their minions, so they start an [censored]
    kicking avalanche to make the problem go away.

    Quoted message said:

    You might consider asking your bank for advice on
    international ordering.

    As to that point, I have fired off a complaint to my bank (CBA, for anyone
    in Oz) wanting to know why they're not justifying their outrageous fees by
    providing 21st century services like verifying my credit card billing
    address when overseas merchants enquire. This is 2004, after all, and it's
    not rocket science.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  6. DRS said:

    ...If I knew who the head honcho is at
    Performance I might send off a registered snail mail.

    Gary Snook. (Least it was a few years ago. Did Nashbar buy
    Performance or vice-versa?) Arni Nashbar was their founder.
    HTH
    --Karen M.

  7. Well, I appreciate the heads up on Performance being tied to
    Nashbar, as I almost started buying from them because of Nashbar's lousy
    performance.
    My current saga actually contradicts the poster who says Nashbar
    doesn't ship by USPS. I ordered some items a month ago, as I have
    frequently in the past. They shipped everything to me by FedEx, which
    worked because I gave them my physical address (we don't have home USPS
    delivery here and the boxes aren't tied to the physical either). Well, it
    turns out that with my last (time-wise and future-wise) order, on a whim,
    Nashbar decided to ship via USPS without giving me the option or even
    notice. Long story short: I get an "undeliverable address" result when I
    pulled a tracking report. So I call Nashbar's Customer No-Service and am
    told that they just shipped it USPS, and the only way to ensure a
    specific way for shipping is to call (which kinda defeats the idea of
    web-ordering) but that they would ship it FedEx ground right away. Well,
    a week later, I phone to see where my still missing package is. Now I'm
    told that the person who put the tag on (to resend it) never sent it and
    has been out sick. So now I have yet another promise to send my items. I
    am not taking odds that they'll actually deliver. This is my last dealing
    with them, that's for sure.

    Eric

  8. "E" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    Well, I appreciate the heads up on Performance being tied to
    Nashbar, as I almost started buying from them because of Nashbar's
    lousy performance.

    I'm not sure of the details of the relationship or whether it has any
    bearing on their respective business practices.

    Quoted message said:

    My current saga actually contradicts the poster who says Nashbar
    doesn't ship by USPS.

    According to their website they only use FedEx for international deliveries.
    They also confirmed it to me via email. Your account is therefore
    surprising. I have no idea whether it was a one-off or represents a change
    in policy. It would be a wise move if it were, for using couriers is
    stupidly expensive for international orders.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  9. E <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Well, I appreciate the heads up on Performance being tied to
    Nashbar, as I almost started buying from them because of Nashbar's lousy
    performance.
    My current saga actually contradicts the poster who says Nashbar
    doesn't ship by USPS. I ordered some items a month ago, as I have
    frequently in the past. They shipped everything to me by FedEx, which
    worked because I gave them my physical address (we don't have home USPS
    delivery here and the boxes aren't tied to the physical either). Well, it
    turns out that with my last (time-wise and future-wise) order, on a whim,
    Nashbar decided to ship via USPS without giving me the option or even
    notice. Long story short: I get an "undeliverable address" result when I
    pulled a tracking report. So I call Nashbar's Customer No-Service and am
    told that they just shipped it USPS, and the only way to ensure a
    specific way for shipping is to call (which kinda defeats the idea of
    web-ordering) but that they would ship it FedEx ground right away. Well,
    a week later, I phone to see where my still missing package is. Now I'm
    told that the person who put the tag on (to resend it) never sent it and
    has been out sick. So now I have yet another promise to send my items. I
    am not taking odds that they'll actually deliver. This is my last dealing
    with them, that's for sure.

    Eric

    Last week I received my entire order from Nashbar on time with no
    problems. I have been ordering from them for years. My biggest
    problem has been with Performance. They seem to mess up with the
    shipping on a regular basis.

    ED

  10. Nashbar ships USPS sort of at random. I never know which it will be,
    UPS or USPS. If it's UPS, I get it the next day; if it's USPS, maybe
    a week. On the other hand USPS delivers on Saturday and UPS doesn't.
    --
    Ron Hardin
    [email hidden]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

  11. E said:

    Well, I appreciate the heads up on Performance being tied to
    Nashbar, as I almost started buying from them because of Nashbar's lousy
    performance.
    My current saga actually contradicts the poster who says Nashbar
    doesn't ship by USPS. I ordered some items a month ago, as I have
    frequently in the past. They shipped everything to me by FedEx, which
    worked because I gave them my physical address (we don't have home USPS
    delivery here and the boxes aren't tied to the physical either). Well, it
    turns out that with my last (time-wise and future-wise) order, on a whim,
    Nashbar decided to ship via USPS without giving me the option or even
    notice. Long story short: I get an "undeliverable address" result when I
    pulled a tracking report. So I call Nashbar's Customer No-Service and am
    told that they just shipped it USPS, and the only way to ensure a
    specific way for shipping is to call (which kinda defeats the idea of
    web-ordering) but that they would ship it FedEx ground right away. Well,
    a week later, I phone to see where my still missing package is. Now I'm
    told that the person who put the tag on (to resend it) never sent it and
    has been out sick. So now I have yet another promise to send my items. I
    am not taking odds that they'll actually deliver. This is my last dealing
    with them, that's for sure.

    Eric

    Hi, I have been buying from both Nashbar and Performance for the last
    three years, with no problems.
    For regular customers, located in the US, with deliverable addresses,
    they are good companies to deal with.

    Performance seems to ship USPS on back orders and on exchanges.
    If you purchase regularly Team Performance is a very good deal. Not
    only do you get 10% off future purchases, they have specials, not
    available otherwise. A good example was Sidi Genius 4, list $209, on
    sale to everyone for $197, team Performance price $169. These prices
    are not exact, but close, and a good example. I just checked current
    price on the Sidi is $179.99 So, if you buy a lot of bike related
    items, it pays.

    They have a good return and exchange policy. I had a pair of shorts
    that I had worn at least 10 times, that the seam let go. They refunded
    my return shipping costs and sent me a brand new pair of shorts.
    Mistakes happen, but I have found them to stand behind their products
    and to try their best to make things right.

    Another benefit is that there are often 10 & 20% off coupons, to be
    found online. I paid about $136 for my Sidi Genius 4, and then got 10%
    for a future purchase, on top of that. So, final cost about $122.

    I do not work for either of these companies, just a satisfied
    customer.

    Life is Good!
    Jeff


  12. Quoted message said:

    According to their website they only use FedEx for international deliveries.
    They also confirmed it to me via email. Your account is therefore
    surprising. I have no idea whether it was a one-off or represents a change
    in policy. It would be a wise move if it were, for using couriers is
    stupidly expensive for international orders.

    Looking at their shipping info on their website (Nashbar)
    Top line: Standard Shipping/Handling (no definition of what that is)
    Next lines detail fast (2 day, overnight) shipping
    4 lines down is Mail. But nowhere does it say that FedEx is only
    international, and I have a box here from them, sent by FedEx Ground
    approx 2 months ago (with no special interaction from me) that says if
    Nashbar told you that, they're lying.
    Obviously, shop with whoever you like, but on my part, Nashbar has made
    the decision very easy for me, even if they ever do ship the order that I
    have paid for to me.

    Eric

  13. Quoted message said:

    Last week I received my entire order from Nashbar on time with no
    problems. I have been ordering from them for years. My biggest
    problem has been with Performance. They seem to mess up with the
    shipping on a regular basis.

    ED

    I've always got stuff from Nashbar in about 3 days.
    I have waited 2 weeks for Performance though

  14. "E" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    According to their website they only use FedEx for international
    deliveries. They also confirmed it to me via email. Your account is
    therefore surprising. I have no idea whether it was a one-off or
    represents a change in policy. It would be a wise move if it were,
    for using couriers is stupidly expensive for international orders.

    Looking at their shipping info on their website (Nashbar)
    Top line: Standard Shipping/Handling (no definition of what that is)
    Next lines detail fast (2 day, overnight) shipping
    4 lines down is Mail. But nowhere does it say that FedEx is only
    international, and I have a box here from them, sent by FedEx Ground
    approx 2 months ago (with no special interaction from me) that says if
    Nashbar told you that, they're lying.

    You've got it [censored] about. I never said FedEx is only international, I said
    they only use FedEx for international deliveries.

    From the email I received from Nashbar on 30/3/04:

    "Unfortunately we only ship via FedEx Internationally."

    Quoted message said:

    Obviously, shop with whoever you like, but on my part, Nashbar has
    made the decision very easy for me, even if they ever do ship the
    order that I have paid for to me.

    Courier costs are deal killers for international orders. Unless Nashbar is
    absolutely positively the only shop in the entire world with the item I want
    I'm simply not going to buy something from them that winds up costing me
    more because they insist on using the single most expensive delivery system
    available. If they don't use ordinary USPS air mail then it makes no
    financial sense. Maybe people with more money than brains don't care about
    that but I do.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  15. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:

    "E" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    According to their website they only use FedEx for international
    deliveries. They also confirmed it to me via email. Your account is
    therefore surprising. I have no idea whether it was a one-off or
    represents a change in policy. It would be a wise move if it were,
    for using couriers is stupidly expensive for international orders.

    Looking at their shipping info on their website (Nashbar)
    Top line: Standard Shipping/Handling (no definition of what that is)
    Next lines detail fast (2 day, overnight) shipping
    4 lines down is Mail. But nowhere does it say that FedEx is only
    international, and I have a box here from them, sent by FedEx Ground
    approx 2 months ago (with no special interaction from me) that says if
    Nashbar told you that, they're lying.

    You've got it [censored] about. I never said FedEx is only international, I said
    they only use FedEx for international deliveries.

    From the email I received from Nashbar on 30/3/04:

    "Unfortunately we only ship via FedEx Internationally."

    Quoted message said:

    Obviously, shop with whoever you like, but on my part, Nashbar has
    made the decision very easy for me, even if they ever do ship the
    order that I have paid for to me.

    Courier costs are deal killers for international orders. Unless Nashbar is
    absolutely positively the only shop in the entire world with the item I want
    I'm simply not going to buy something from them that winds up costing me
    more because they insist on using the single most expensive delivery system
    available. If they don't use ordinary USPS air mail then it makes no
    financial sense. Maybe people with more money than brains don't care about
    that but I do.


    I hate to nitpick my friend, but I posted the quote from your posting
    that says "...they only use FedEx for international deliveries" Perhaps
    it's a typo on your part, but I just responded to that is all. Once
    again, they *have* shipped to my home with FedEx Ground, and supposedly
    are sending my still-missing order that way as well. I care about cost
    too, which is why I formerly did business with them. Personally, I do not
    give a rat's ass *how* they ship(FedEx, Pony Express, foot courier), as
    long as it's made clear up front so I can provide the correct address for
    shipping. Small thing to ask, but too big a concept for Nashbar.

    Eric
    PS: you can have the final word on it, I've said my piece about Nashbar

  16. "E" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:

    "E" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    [...]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    4 lines down is Mail. But nowhere does it say that FedEx is only
    international, and I have a box here from them, sent by FedEx Ground
    approx 2 months ago (with no special interaction from me) that says
    if Nashbar told you that, they're lying.

    You've got it [censored] about. I never said FedEx is only international,
    I said they only use FedEx for international deliveries.

    From the email I received from Nashbar on 30/3/04:

    "Unfortunately we only ship via FedEx Internationally."

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    I hate to nitpick my friend, but I posted the quote from your posting
    that says "...they only use FedEx for international deliveries"
    Perhaps it's a typo on your part, but I just responded to that is
    all.

    It's not a typo. It says what I said it says. When Nashbar ship an
    international order they (according to them) *only* use FedEx, which is what
    I have said more than once. I even quoted them saying exactly that.

    Quoted message said:

    Once again, they *have* shipped to my home with FedEx Ground,

    Is your home outside the US or Canada? If not then it's got nothing to do
    with the point.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  17. DRS said:

    It's not a typo. It says what I said it says. When Nashbar ship an
    international order they (according to them) *only* use FedEx, which is what
    I have said more than once. I even quoted them saying exactly that.

    Friends,

    The two sentences:

    They *only use* FedEx to ship (internationally)...

    and

    They *use only* FedEx to ship (internationally)...

    do not mean the same thing....

    The first means that they use FedEx for one purpose, and that is when
    they ship internationally. They would not use FedEx for a domestic
    sale.

    The second means that they have one way to ship internationally, and
    that is FedEx. They will not use another shipping method for an
    international sale.

    With that addition, let's continue to enjoy the battle...

    All the best,
    --
    Kenneth

    If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

  18. "DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]

    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    As to that point, I have fired off a complaint to my bank (CBA, for
    anyone in Oz) wanting to know why they're not justifying their
    outrageous fees by providing 21st century services like verifying my
    credit card billing address when overseas merchants enquire. This is
    2004, after all, and it's not rocket science.

    My bank's initial response was to offer to validate via email. Performance
    refused. Had to be within business hours, they said. So I got and gave
    them the international CBA merchant enquiry number. Performance say they
    couldn't get an operator on that number. It's not a 24x7 number and it's on
    the other side of the world - why do they think the bank offered to do it
    via email? I have visions of some clueless Performance minion ringing an
    answering machine in Sydney whilst the whole of Australia is asleep.

    In the meantime I've ordered and had delivered the non-Performance brand
    stuff from Alfred E. Bike (http://aebike.com/site/intro.cfm). No [censored],
    just good service.

    Performance should take notice. They have absolutely no idea what customer
    service is. They think it's "apologizing for any inconvenience" several
    dozen times instead of fixing the problem. Do they teach their people to be
    this stupid or is it natural, I wonder.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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