Caloric Intake During Marathon

N_A_J said:

I am running my first marathon in Chicago on October 12th. I've run half-marathons using a couple
of caffeinated gels(Clif), and I've trained with them for the marathon as well. I am wondering if
there is any guideline for the optimum caloric intake during the marathon, and if so at what
intervals. I plan on eating a relatively bland pre-race meal as usual. The weather should be a
high of 64 F and a low of 43 F
- sounds very promising! Thanks for any advice.

I carry 3-4 gels (or Gu's) in a marathon. I've always taken 1 at 10 miles, 1 at 15, one at 20.
This year I think I will take them at 8, 13, 17, and 20 if I think I need the extra one. Caloric
expenditure is more a function of distance covered than pace. Because of this, your goal time is
relatively unimportant in how many you take. So I'd recommend about 4 for most people. It takes
time for them to digest, and if you take too many you'll risk stomach and cramping problems.
Drink the Gatorade with them too. Don't bother with any once you're within half an hour of the
finish, unless you're in real trouble. While a small portion will get absorbed in your mouth, the
rest will not get into your system before you reach the finish line. Good luck! Andy Hass

[email hidden] (N_A_J) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am running my first marathon in Chicago on October 12th. I've run half-marathons using a couple
of caffeinated gels(Clif), and I've trained with them for the marathon as well. I am wondering if
there is any guideline for the optimum caloric intake during the marathon, and if so at what
intervals. I plan on eating a relatively bland pre-race meal as usual. The weather should be a
high of 64 F and a low of 43 F
- sounds very promising! Thanks for any advice.

For a 4 hour and change marathon, I've always eaten one at the 1 to 1-1/2 hour mark and about every
hour thereafter, in addition to water and/or gatorade at each station. YMMV of course. Pre race I've
always done a combination of bagel, banana, sports bar.

I did Chicago last year, it was FABULOUS. Too cold for me, WAY too cold, but the crowd and the
energy was amazing. Have a great time!

Linda

If you are accustomed to having 2 gel in a half then for a marathon 5, taking one every 4-5 miles or
so, would be about right. Taking gel on the way really helps out that last 10 km. Don't take too
many though or they just lay in your stomach and feel bloated. Personally, I use three with one
about 9,16, & 22 miles.

[email hidden] (N_A_J) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am running my first marathon in Chicago on October 12th. I've run half-marathons using a couple
of caffeinated gels(Clif), and I've trained with them for the marathon as well. I am wondering if
there is any guideline for the optimum caloric intake during the marathon, and if so at what
intervals. I plan on eating a relatively bland pre-race meal as usual. The weather should be a
high of 64 F and a low of 43 F
- sounds very promising! Thanks for any advice.

Just do what you've been doing already. If you eat more than you've tried already during a long
run, you could get an upset stomach. Your stomach could be more stressed in the final 10 km after
you hit the wall.

In article said:

I am running my first marathon in Chicago on October 12th. I've run half-marathons using a couple
of caffeinated gels(Clif), and I've trained with them for the marathon as well. I am wondering if
there is any guideline for the optimum caloric intake during the marathon, and if so at what
intervals. I plan on eating a relatively bland pre-race meal as usual. The weather should be a high
of 64 F and a low of 43 F
- sounds very promising! Thanks for any advice.

Do Nothing New on Race Day!!

first law of racing. Use them in the way you've practiced. Good luck at the race!

For later use:

It seems that the maximum caloric uptake by your body is about 240 calories per hour, and I
think that may be assuming that you're not exercising at a high enough level to interfere with
digestion. While that's probably an ok assumption for ultramarathoners (worked for me) it's
probably not the case for marathoners. Anyhow, that's an upper bound for uptake. Divide by
number of calories in a packet and multiply by number of hours and that's the maximum doable
number of packets.

Seems a good time also to report about my own experiments from training runs:

As the attentive audience recalls, in my last installment, I was having some real problems with
getting past about 15 miles in my runs and was looking for ideas on what to do for calories, as
they were my suspect rather than hydration. I've tried salted, defizzed, coca-cola on the last 3
long runs. The first was cancelled early for other reasons. The second, I got up to 17-18 miles
(uncertain of accurate distance, but I was near my planned time) ok. Big improvement over the
previous two attempts to get over 15 miles, which had involved 15-16 miles of running, some of it
needing quotes around the "running", and walking 2-3 miles.

This past Sunday, I ran the planned 20 miles. This went more easily than the previous long of 17,
and far more easily than even miles 13-15 of the runs before that. Even better, this was the most
difficult of the routes for the 4 runs that were planned to be run over 15 miles. The weather
likely helped, as did having someone to run with in the last 10 miles (as opposed to the first 10
in previous weeks).

Anyhow, I now know -- by experiment -- that I do much better with 20 oz/hour of coke (approx. 250
calories/hour) than 20 oz/hour of gatorade (approx 100 calories/hour). Unfortunately, I also know
by these experiments that I can't tell the difference between coke/gatorade/water until I've been
out for at least 2 hours. Makes it hard to experiment when I have to be out for 2 hours before
it's worth taking notes.

I may revisit this as a question of straight dehydration, rather than anything to do with the
calorie source and amount, later this winter. Switching to coke was contemporary with our dew
points dropping substantially. That nice 20 miler was on a gorgeous day, where the dew points were
probably 20-30 F cooler than the hideous runs in the gatorade-only phase.

So, come race day, I'll be carrying 40 oz (full camelbak) of coke and stretching it out with
the sports drink at the race. Still debating whether and how to have someone hand off another
40 oz of coke.

Metric folks: 40 oz is approximately 1.2 liters

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Robert Grumbine said:

As the attentive audience recalls, in my last installment, I was having some real problems with
getting past about 15 miles in my runs and was looking for ideas on what to do for calories, as
they were my suspect rather than hydration.

Did I miss it?

Quoted message said:

Anyhow, I now know -- by experiment -- that I do much better with 20 oz/hour of coke (approx.
250 calories/hour) than 20 oz/hour of gatorade (approx 100 calories/hour). Unfortunately, I also
know by these experiments that I can't tell the difference between coke/gatorade/water until
I've been out for at least 2 hours. Makes it hard to experiment when I have to be out for 2
hours before it's worth taking notes.

I would try one of the maltodextrin based drinks which burn slow and steady and avoid the sugar
spikes from Gatorbarf, and if possible supplement with Coke or Mountain Dew.

Quoted message said:

So, come race day, I'll be carrying 40 oz (full camelbak) of coke and stretching it out with the
sports drink at the race. Still debating whether and how to have someone hand off another 40 oz
of coke.

I love my Coke and Dew on race day but not to the degree you seem to be suggesting. Have you tried
Cytomax or any of the SUCCEED products. Most of my races use SUCCEED!ULTRA and when I have a crew
use SUCCEED!clip which is a liquid food. Clip has no salt so Caps are also needed. My concern is you
are doing too much caffeine and cheap sugar.

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I would try one of the maltodextrin based drinks which burn slow and steady and avoid the sugar
spikes from Gatorbarf, and if possible supplement with Coke or Mountain Dew.

The recipe for perhaps the oddest personal choice for a marathon drink that I know: 1 liter of
chamomile tea, 80 grams of maltodextrin and a pinch of salt!

(It worked for a sub-2:40 finish...)

Of course, such an unconventional solution necessarily requires you to have your own service crew on
race day or to pick a marathon whwre you´re allowed to provide your own drinks for the water
stations:-)

Anders

In article said:

Robert Grumbine said:

As the attentive audience recalls, in my last installment, I was having some real problems with
getting past about 15 miles in my runs and was looking for ideas on what to do for calories, as
they were my suspect rather than hydration.

Did I miss it?

No, in fact the coke idea was one of yours, though you apparently weren't thinking that I'd go
with straight coke through the whole run.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyhow, I now know -- by experiment -- that I do much better with 20 oz/hour of coke (approx.
250 calories/hour) than 20 oz/hour of gatorade (approx 100 calories/hour). Unfortunately, I
also know by these experiments that I can't tell the difference between coke/gatorade/water
until I've been out for at least 2 hours. Makes it hard to experiment when I have to be out for
2 hours before it's worth taking notes.

I would try one of the maltodextrin based drinks which burn slow and steady and avoid the sugar
spikes from Gatorbarf, and if possible supplement with Coke or Mountain Dew.

Yes, another experiment for the winter. But can you provide some names for the maltodextrin based
drinks? My looking in local stores suggests that I'm not looking in the right places, or that
they're in fewer stores.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, come race day, I'll be carrying 40 oz (full camelbak) of coke and stretching it out with
the sports drink at the race. Still debating whether and how to have someone hand off another
40 oz of coke.

I love my Coke and Dew on race day but not to the degree you seem to be suggesting. Have you tried
Cytomax or any of the SUCCEED products. Most of my races use SUCCEED!ULTRA and when I have a crew
use SUCCEED!clip which is a liquid food. Clip has no salt so Caps are also needed. My concern is
you are doing too much caffeine and cheap sugar.

Not yet Cytomax or SUCCEED (have to find or recognize a source). Alteration between coke and water
(not done systematically on the last run, but done) seems to work ok.

With it taking 2 hours for me to start noticing the relative merits, and that (at least in the
summer) I need 2 weeks between runs of over 2 hours, I really haven't had time to carry out many
experiments.

I can't say that I suggest that people run on coke only. Just
that this is close to what I did in the more successful part of
my training, so I'll be going that direction on race day as well.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Anders Lustig said:

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I would try one of the maltodextrin based drinks which burn slow and steady and avoid the sugar
spikes from Gatorbarf, and if possible supplement with Coke or Mountain Dew.

The recipe for perhaps the oddest personal choice for a marathon drink that I know: 1 liter of
chamomile tea, 80 grams of maltodextrin and a pinch of salt!

What no crumpets? 😉 I'm not surprised and have seen and heard of some bizzare conconctions on the
ultra circuit. It's usually a maltodextrin base with some "flavoring."

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

In article said:

I would try one of the maltodextrin based drinks which burn slow and steady and avoid the sugar
spikes from Gatorbarf, and if possible supplement with Coke or Mountain Dew.

Where do you get the idea that maltodextrin burns "slow and steady" ?

It's got one of the highest GIs of any carb. The fact that it is a "complex carbohydrate" does not
mean that it "burns slow and steady". It is not substantially different to glucose.

BTW, Coke and and Mountain Dew are both full of fructose (the same junk sweetener that Gatorade
uses, though Gatorade at least has some glucose as well)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Yes, another experiment for the winter. But can you provide some names for the maltodextrin
based drinks? My looking in local stores suggests that I'm not looking in the right places, or
that they're in fewer stores.

IMO your best bet would be to just get bulk maltodextrin and mix it yourself: save a lot of money
that you'd be spending on what is essentially sugar+water.

A quick websearch will pull up several maltodextrin based drinks. There are some that are in powder
form, a middle ground between buying straight maltodextrin and getting the drink in liquid form. For
example, "Twin Lab Ultra Fuel" is a straight maltodextrin drink in powder form. In general, avoid
"high fructose corn syrup" (the junk sweetener that soft drinks use, and even some sports drinks
like gatorade use it)

You're probably not going to find these drinks in ordinary stores or even pharmacies. I'd recommend
nutritional supplement speciality shops like GNC, or mail order via websites, if you want to buy a
shrink-wrap product.

Quoted message said:

I can't say that I suggest that people run on coke only. Just
that this is close to what I did in the more successful part of
my training, so I'll be going that direction on race day as well.

Coke is full of high fructose corn syrup. The caffeine would definitely help. I always take some
coffee before a tough training session.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Robert Grumbine said:

No, in fact the coke idea was one of yours, though you apparently weren't thinking that I'd go
with straight coke through the whole run.

True, It's not a good source of calories.

Quoted message said:

Yes, another experiment for the winter. But can you provide some names for the maltodextrin
based drinks? My looking in local stores suggests that I'm not looking in the right places, or
that they're in fewer stores.

See below,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I love my Coke and Dew on race day but not to the degree you seem to be suggesting. Have you tried
Cytomax or any of the SUCCEED products. Most of my races use SUCCEED!ULTRA and when I have a crew
use SUCCEED!clip which is a liquid food. Clip has no salt so Caps are also needed. My concern is
you are doing too much caffeine and cheap sugar.

Not yet Cytomax or SUCCEED (have to find or recognize a source).

Cytomax is found in health food a and likely bike stores. Cytomax was/is used heavlily in endurance
biking. SUCCEED products are only on line. See ultrafit-endurance.com.ultrafit-endurance.com.Open ↗

Quoted message said:

Alteration between coke and water (not done systematically on the last run, but done) seems to
work ok.

For a few hours you will be fine. If for many hours make damn sure youeat6 some real food to get
some better carbs and fats.

Quoted message said:

With it taking 2 hours for me to start noticing the relative merits, and that (at least in the
summer) I need 2 weeks between runs of over 2 hours, I really haven't had time to carry out many
experiments.

One of the demerits from hanging out with the spinters. 🙂

Quoted message said:

I can't say that I suggest that people run on coke only. Just
that this is close to what I did in the more successful part of
my training, so I'll be going that direction on race day as well.

What race and how long??

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]

In article said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Robert Grumbine wrote: maltodextrin and getting the
drink in liquid form. For example, "Twin Lab Ultra Fuel" is a straight maltodextrin drink in
powder form.

Doh! You can also get Twinlab Ultra fuel in 16oz bottles.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Freese

Quoted message said:

Robert Grumbine said:

Not yet Cytomax or SUCCEED (have to find or recognize a source).

Cytomax is found in health food a and likely bike stores. Cytomax was/is used heavlily in endurance
biking. SUCCEED products are only on line. See ultrafit-endurance.com.ultrafit-endurance.com.Open ↗

Ok, thanks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Alteration between coke and water (not done systematically on the last run, but done) seems to
work ok.

For a few hours you will be fine. If for many hours make damn sure youeat6 some real food to get
some better carbs and fats.

Quoted message said:

With it taking 2 hours for me to start noticing the relative merits, and that (at least in the
summer) I need 2 weeks between runs of over 2 hours, I really haven't had time to carry out
many experiments.

One of the demerits from hanging out with the spinters. 🙂

Or with being a sprinter. Those 1-5 k sprints are my natural territory.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't say that I suggest that people run on coke only. Just
that this is close to what I did in the more successful part of
my training, so I'll be going that direction on race day as well.

What race and how long??

Only a marathon -- Marine Corps. Flat course, and only for a few hours. Definitely not into the
'many' range, barring some real (and unpleasant) surprises.

If it were in the 'many' range, I'd have less problem, I think, as I wouldn't be relying on the
fluid for calories as well. In preparing for HAT, I had no problem with real food on the run. No
problem in the race either, aside from possibly not enough of it, or water, or salt, or something.

I've been invited to join a team doing JFK. Now _that_ would be in the many hour range. I
declined. :-)
--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

(Anders Lustig) said:

The recipe for perhaps the oddest personal choice for a marathon drink that I know: 1 liter of
chamomile tea, 80 grams of maltodextrin and a pinch of salt!

(It worked for a sub-2:40 finish...)

The 1908 Olympic marathon - the one where the stupid or/and arrogant and/or muddle-headed Brits (I
am one, so I can say what I like) changed the 40k distance to 42.2 - had an official refreshments
"partner" ..... Oxo . I kid you not.

Funnily enough, in this day and age where every new world performance brings the "he's doped"
brigade scuttling out of the skirting-boards, I should really go down as the biggest junky in town,
because the 1908 Olympic champion only managed a piffling 2h55m46s2/5.

Proof positive that 2 phials of Squeezy maltodextrin gel will make you Olympic champion. Or
something?

Robert Grumbine said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Freese
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cytomax is found in health food a and likely bike stores. Cytomax was/is used heavlily in
endurance biking. SUCCEED products are only on line. See ultrafit-endurance.com.ultrafit-endurance.com.Open ↗

Ok, thanks.

Cytomax is also in many outdoor and climbing stores, like REI. When you're looking at calorie
content, etc with cytomax, be aware that the envelopes (40g powder / 16oz water) and cans (25g
powder/16oz water) have different directions for mixing. This makes a big difference in what you're
getting nutritionally, not to mention the taste, and may not be reflected in some comparison tables.
I think some of the different flavors may have different nutrition and ingredients also.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Where do you get the idea that maltodextrin burns "slow and steady" ?

It's got one of the highest GIs of any carb. The fact that it is a "complex carbohydrate" does not
mean that it "burns slow and steady". It is not substantially different to glucose.

Someone else raised this point some time back and it caught me off guard. I wrote to the creator of
the SUCCEED product and fellow ultrarunner to help explain. It politely noted that there are
different maltodextrins with lower GI's.

Usually I would take the response with a grain of salt but Karl developed these products primarily
for himself to get through his own ultra races and not motivated by money. Soon his friends and
fellow runners were using it and he decided to offer it commercially. Three of my races on the east
coast serve the SUCCEED!ultra as their sport drink. It is not mass marketed and in fact only known
within the ultra circuit. It has also made it way into Tri's.

The only bad grade for any of these products is taste. For instance the S!U comes in only an very
light orange flavor. If you don't like the flavor, just like any drink, you don't use it, or as
others have done, add your personal flavor. When you are using a sport drink for 8-30 hours flavor
becomes a major factor.

Quoted message said:

BTW, Coke and and Mountain Dew are both full of fructose (the same junk sweetener that Gatorade
uses, though Gatorade at least has some glucose as well)

I agree and why I don't think it's a good drink. Then again, if Bob finds it works for him and his
time for additional experimentation is not available, use it. I use Dew and Coke in my races for the
caffeine. They are also a pleasant break for the palate.

--
Doug Freese [email hidden]