Campy Upgrades

mafnorthcarolin said:

Im looking to upgrade my campy mirage and i have heard that if im gonna upgrade I shouldn't go below Centaur. Has anyone had trouble with Veloce? Im not looking to spend a fortune but i would like a little more "crispness" in my shifting. Thanks for the input...

There is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in the shifting capability beween your Mirage shifters and Record shifters -- the "heart" of all current Campagnolo shifters is the SAME.

There is a difference in the diameter of the central shafts of the Record & Chorus shifters because they have a ball bearing instead of a bushing (e.g., Centaur, Veloce, Mirage, Xenon); but, that is mostly evident in the break-in time.

The high end shifters (e.g., Record & Chorus) weigh less because of some titanium bits & pieces.

For all intents and purposes, other than the indexing (9spd vs. 10spd), the difference between the various Campagnolo shifters is mostly cosmetic -- you know, that 1959 Chevrolet Impala had some more chrome than the Chevrolet Bel Aire, but the rest was essentially the same.

Check your cable routing to ensure that there aren't any kinks.

Detach the cables and manually pull the ends back-and-forth to see if there is any binding (or, not).

Consider buying new cables & cable housing -- I have found that Campagnolo's overpriced cables & housing are exceptionally smooth when compared with regular cables/housing ...

You can probably get buy with simply buying a couple of new derailleur cables ... some people "inject" some SLICK HONEY, or equivalent, into the cable housing as a lube.

mafnorthcarolin said:

Im looking to upgrade my campy mirage and i have heard that if im gonna upgrade I shouldn't go below Centaur. Has anyone had trouble with Veloce? Im not looking to spend a fortune but i would like a little more "crispness" in my shifting. Thanks for the input...

Centaur is kind of a mixed bag with some parts similar to veloce and others more like chorus/record but without the carbon.

In my experience, Veloce works quite well and is a good value for the money. It isn't as light as the other groups but reliability on my commuter bike has been excellent through the wet Seattle winters.

Veloce shifters and Centaur are mechanically identical and are otherwise the same except for the small cutout in the shifter lever on the Centaur. The Centaur hubs are quite a bit lighter than the Veloce and the RD is also lighter as it has a cut out on the body like the Chorus, whereas the Veloce is solid. Centaur brakes also use a Record type brake shoe/holder whereas the Veloce uses a solid rubber block of rubber. Centaur and Veloce do not use the differential front and rear brakes that Record does.

I have a centaur RD on one bike and a veloce on another and both drivetrains seemed to take a few hundred miles to "break-in" in that they shifted fine but were a bit noisier running than what I like, but over time seemed to quiet down.

From a performance standpoint, I doubt that there would be much difference between Veloce and Centaur on your bike, although the Centaur would save a few grams.

alfeng said:

There is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in the shifting capability beween your Mirage shifters and Record shifters -- the "heart" of all current Campagnolo shifters is the SAME.

There is a difference in the diameter of the central shafts of the Record & Chorus shifters because they have a ball bearing instead of a bushing (e.g., Centaur, Veloce, Mirage, Xenon); but, that is mostly evident in the break-in time.

The high end shifters (e.g., Record & Chorus) weigh less because of some titanium bits & pieces.

For all intents and purposes, other than the indexing (9spd vs. 10spd), the difference between the various Campagnolo shifters is mostly cosmetic -- you know, that 1959 Chevrolet Impala had some more chrome than the Chevrolet Bel Aire, but the rest was essentially the same.

Check your cable routing to ensure that there aren't any kinks.

Detach the cables and manually pull the ends back-and-forth to see if there is any binding (or, not).

Consider buying new cables & cable housing -- I have found that Campagnolo's overpriced cables & housing are exceptionally smooth when compared with regular cables/housing ...

You can probably get buy with simply buying a couple of new derailleur cables ... some people "inject" some SLICK HONEY, or equivalent, into the cable housing as a lube.

I second that. Heck, I'm using xenon, shifts excellently. Getting parts though can be a problem, especially around here. The higher end campy stuff is a bit lighter than the low end, but hey, even 100 g difference isn't much to write about.

-Bikeguy

alfeng said:

There is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in the shifting capability beween your Mirage shifters and Record shifters -- the "heart" of all current Campagnolo shifters is the SAME.

There is a difference in the diameter of the central shafts of the Record & Chorus shifters because they have a ball bearing instead of a bushing (e.g., Centaur, Veloce, Mirage, Xenon); but, that is mostly evident in the break-in time.

?
The high end shifters (e.g., Record & Chorus) weigh less because of some titanium bits & pieces.

For all intents and purposes, other than the indexing (9spd vs. 10spd), the difference between the various Campagnolo shifters is mostly cosmetic -- you know, that 1959 Chevrolet Impala had some more chrome than the Chevrolet Bel Aire, but the rest was essentially the same.

Check your cable routing to ensure that there aren't any kinks.

Detach the cables and manually pull the ends back-and-forth to see if there is any binding (or, not).

Consider buying new cables & cable housing -- I have found that Campagnolo's overpriced cables & housing are exceptionally smooth when compared with regular cables/housing ...

You can probably get buy with simply buying a couple of new derailleur cables ... some people "inject" some SLICK HONEY, or equivalent, into the cable housing as a lube.

So is there any difference between mirage and record derailleurs besides finish and weight? Oh, and are campy componets compatiable with each other? Such as mirage shifters with veloce derailleurs?

mafnorthcarolin said:

So is there any difference between mirage and record derailleurs besides finish and weight? Oh, and are campy componets compatiable with each other? Such as mirage shifters with veloce derailleurs?

To the best of my knowledge, the parallelogram geometry on almost any Campy rear derailleur from 2000 and beyond is the same.

I have a 9-speed Chorus rear derailleur which dates to about 2000 ... it looks like the 8-speed style (sans stubby, rounded nose), and it indexes with all the current 9-/10-speed shifters & cassettes.

The difference from my 9-speed Chorus and the 8-speed derailleurs which look the same is, I presume, the width of the pulley wheels.

Similarly, the 10-speed pulley wheel MAY be narrower than the 9-speed pulley wheel; but, I'm not certain.

FWIW. I generally use SHIMANO XTR 950/952 rear derailleurs with Campagnolo ERGO shifters. I thought I could paste a picture here ... here's a link which shows my "Winter" bike with some Mirage shifters mated to an XTR rear derailleur & Ultegra 6503 front derailleur:

[center]ioffer.comalfengOpen ↗[/center]

The Campy shifters can also be MADE TO WORK with other Shimano 9-speed rear derailleurs -- e.g., XT, Ultegra 6500, etc. -- without too much effort. There are some "tricks" in some circumstances; but, it is readily do-able.

The advantage of the Shimano rear derailleurs is the longer pulley cages AND lower expense.

Due to curiosity, I bought & have tentatively mated a 10-speed Shimano 105 rear derailleur with a 10-speed ERGO shifter ... the anchoring position looks viable (as in, similar to the Campagnolo anchoring point, FWIW) on the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleurs, but the test was very preliminary; and, I have not had time to do any further work on compatibility.

Or you can just get a jtek shiftmate?

I run Dura Ace 7800 rear dr. (9 speed cassette) with chorus shifters. Works perfectly! And it is cheap.

jtekengineering.comshiftmate.htmOpen ↗

i have a bike with chorus and another with veloche,they have a little different feel but the chorus and record use a ball berring as opposed to a bushing, otherwise sell the mirage to me 🙂

I used Veloce for a while (all of 2004) and had no problems at all with it - it was smooth - at least I thought so, but I have not used higher than that.

We've got Mirage 9-speed on three bikes and Centaur 10 on a fourth. The Centaur shifters are just nicer use due to better finish, but there's no appreciable difference in shift performance (in fact the 9-speed bikes are usually better, although the Centaur 10's not really properly run-in yet). You can mix and match any post-2000 9spd kit (pre-2000 is easy to spot as it has an adjuster screw for derailleur position up by the main hanger, where the post-2000 rear ders have an adjuster down by the jockey cage). We've got various mixes of Veloce and Centaur chainsets etc on the 9spd bikes, and one runs a Shimano Tiagra chainset but it's so heavy it's going in the bin soon!
As someone said, the biggest factor in good shifting/indexing is proper cables in perfect condition. The step up to Veloce doesn't really seem to merit the expense and hassle, so I'd be inclined to say go for Centaur, although the biggest issue will be whether or not you then have to move up to 10spd, with all the wholesale changes that entails. Personally, I'd try to get some good used 9spd Centaur, Record or Chorus 9spd shifters and new cables, and stick with the rest of your existing setup.

alfeng said:

There is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in the shifting capability beween your Mirage shifters and Record shifters -- the "heart" of all current Campagnolo shifters is the SAME.

There is a difference in the diameter of the central shafts of the Record & Chorus shifters because they have a ball bearing instead of a bushing (e.g., Centaur, Veloce, Mirage, Xenon); but, that is mostly evident in the break-in time.

The high end shifters (e.g., Record & Chorus) weigh less because of some titanium bits & pieces.

For all intents and purposes, other than the indexing (9spd vs. 10spd), the difference between the various Campagnolo shifters is mostly cosmetic -- you know, that 1959 Chevrolet Impala had some more chrome than the Chevrolet Bel Aire, but the rest was essentially the same.

Check your cable routing to ensure that there aren't any kinks.

Detach the cables and manually pull the ends back-and-forth to see if there is any binding (or, not).

Consider buying new cables & cable housing -- I have found that Campagnolo's overpriced cables & housing are exceptionally smooth when compared with regular cables/housing ...

You can probably get buy with simply buying a couple of new derailleur cables ... some people "inject" some SLICK HONEY, or equivalent, into the cable housing as a lube.

I'm sorry but have you tried the Record shifters? The shift quality is SIGNIFICANTLY improved. No comparison.

As for overpriced cables & housing. I think not. They work exceptionally well. Worth the money if you invest in the best.

remdog said:

I'm sorry but have you tried the Record shifters? The shift quality is SIGNIFICANTLY improved. No comparison.

As for overpriced cables & housing. I think not. They work exceptionally well. Worth the money if you invest in the best.

You see this is my problem. Some people are telling me they can see a huge difference and some people say they can't. I would hope that if im spending twice as much, then the records would have something to show they are worth it. But alas the records are out of my price range. So would you say that you are a detail oriented person? And is that why you can see the huge difference?
But back to my original question... When I upgrade, whats the lowest to go, Veloce?

remdog said:

I'm sorry but have you tried the Record shifters? The shift quality is SIGNIFICANTLY improved. No comparison.

As for overpriced cables & housing. I think not. They work exceptionally well. Worth the money if you invest in the best.

Yes, I had a pair of circa-2002 Record shifters -- while they were a little nicer, I do not think the price premium is warranted over any of the "regular" ERGO shifters which use bushings instead of ball bearings; and, certainly from a FUNCTIONAL standpoint there is no reason to shun the least expensive in the Campagnolo lineup.

Yes, though unasked, I have also used Shimano STI shifters ...

Sure, the carbon fiber levers on the Record (and, most recent Chorus) looks nice; but, the clear coat is prone to wear ... and, if it peels, then it begins to look really fugly.

Sure, the break-in period for ERGO levers with ball bearings is probably in the 400 mile range (depending on terrain + how frequently you shift) vs. 1000+ miles for the shifters which only have bushings.

Now, if you are talking about the newest ULTRA variant with the teflon coated bits, then I have not tried them; and, I suppose the break in period is close to non-existent; but, I doubt a pair of the ULTRA variant are smoother than a pair of circa-1998 Chorus shifters [yes, these are the ones which don't have the "hole" to accept an ERGOBRAIN button] which are so smooth and whose shift is now so light that it is almost embarrassing. Nonetheless, when the left shifter finally needed a rebuild, I opted to replace it with a MIRAGE shifter when I realized the cost of a new indexing gear (~$45 at Branford's) made it seem silly not to simply buy a Mirage shifter as a replacement -- I moved the old shift blade & brake lever to the new lever (tedious!) just for cosmetic continuity ... AND, in the bargain, I had a shifter with a new hood.

You know, the "composite" shift blade on the Record is the SAME as the shift blade on the Mirage EXCEPT the Record lever has the faux carbon fiber DECAL afixed to it!

If you go to the Branford Bike website and look at the replacement bits-and-pieces, you will see that the interchangeability underscores the similarity amongst the shifters.

branfordbike.comperlshop.cgiOpen ↗

branfordbike.comperlshop.cgiOpen ↗

The Campagnolo shifters DO get better with age -- no doubt, the ball bearings also mean that the life of the shifters will be a bit longer.

BUT, as Shimano has probably figured out, obsolescence will occur before the component generally wears out (vs. breaking, of course). I have a friend who couldn't wait to outfit his new bike with a then-new 9-speed Dura Ace triple. I told him that the 10-speed would probably be announced momentarily -- it was. While he puts on a "brave face" he is one of those people who would rather have the latest-and-greatest. Okay, Shimano falls short when comparing STI vs. ERGO shifters, IMO; but, not with regard to their other components.

FYI. Campagnolo's NEWEST Record shifters will probably be available in the Fall ... is this a potential dilemma looming for current Record users?

Now, with regard to the Campagnolo cables -- they ARE exceptional; and, I think you mis-read the intention of my statement ...

It really is a matter of whether or not the price premium of a FACTOR OF TWO is justifiable for non-competitve riders who are not sponsored when something that is half the cost is functionally as good.

FWIW. I think that if I were walking into a bike shop to pony up funds equivalent to the cost of a set of replacement CAMPAGNOLO cables/housing that I would consider springing for either AZTEC or NOKON housing ... in part, because of the weight saving.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it ...

mafnorthcarolin said:

You see this is my problem. Some people are telling me they can see a huge difference and some people say they can't. I would hope that if im spending twice as much, then the records would have something to show they are worth it. But alas the records are out of my price range. So would you say that you are a detail oriented person? And is that why you can see the huge difference?
But back to my original question... When I upgrade, whats the lowest to go, Veloce?

Okay, so this is obviously JUST MY OPINION, but short of ponying up for the latest-and-greatest ULTRA Record levers, the issue of which Campagnolo ERGO levers to get is MOSTLY COSMETIC [see my elaboration, above] ... but, cosmetics ARE often a valid reason for choosing something over another -- look at the multitude of "paint" jobs available for Colnago frames -- "bragging rights" with your buddies can be a valid reason, too.

If your current Mirage shifters are the current style with the rounded hoods, then the only reason that I can see to switch is because of a preference for aluminum over the composite material used on the current Mirage levers.

I did find the embossed lettering on the Mirage levers to be slightly disconcerting in a princess-and-the-pea way because none of my other brake levers ever had anything more than a few "drilled" holes or some light cross-hatching or etching. I got used to the Mirage lever's embossed lettering; but, if it it still bothered me, then I would simply use some sandpaper to smooth the levers.

If you like the look of the "open" shift blade, then opt for the Centaur (some Veloce levers had the "open" shift blade). IMO, the solid shift blade is slightly more comfortable, but the "open" shift blade does have an appealing look -- again, this was a princess-and-the-pea situation for my finger tips.

So, to repeat my original suggestion: change the cables and/or housing, first.

If you feel that changing the cables and/or housing doesn't resolve your shifting, then consider Veloce is the next groupo above Mirage. Here is the pecking order:

[center]RECORD / CHORUS / CENTAUR / VELOCE / MIRAGE / XENON[/center]

[left]As an afterthought, if the changing the cables doesn't help, then I would consider shooting either some WD-40 or silicon spray (i.e., the type you buy in the automotive section of K-Mart) into the innards of the lever ... it could be that the grease is gunked up (to use a "non-technical" term).[/left]

alfeng said:

Okay, so this is obviously JUST MY OPINION, but short of ponying up for the latest-and-greatest ULTRA Record levers, the issue of which Campagnolo ERGO levers to get is MOSTLY COSMETIC [see my elaboration, above] ... but, cosmetics ARE often a valid reason for choosing something over another -- look at the multitude of "paint" jobs available for Colnago frames -- "bragging rights" with your buddies can be a valid reason, too.

If your current Mirage shifters are the current style with the rounded hoods, then the only reason that I can see to switch is because of a preference for aluminum over the composite material used on the current Mirage levers.

If you like the look of the "open" shift blade, then opt for the Centaur (some Veloce levers had the "open" shift blade). IMO, the solid shift blade is slightly more comfortable, but the "open" shift blade does have an appealing look.

So, to repeat my original suggestion: change the cables & housing, first.

If you feel that doesn't resolve your shifting, then consider Veloce is the next groupo above Mirage. Here is the pecking order:

[center]RECORD / CHORUS / CENTAUR / VELOCE / MIRAGE / XENON[/center]

Noted and appreciated. In fact that is the first order of business. I was kinda curious about the pros and cons of upgrading to veloce but not to say that im not happy with the mirage but it was probally the wanting to keep up with the jones type of thing. Of course I guess it could be worst, I could be riding Shimano😄

The mirage on my bike has about 8000 miles on it so it is no doubt due for some maintenance/ overhaul.

mafnorthcarolin said:

Noted and appreciated. In fact that is the first order of business. I was kinda curious about the pros and cons of upgrading to veloce but not to say that im not happy with the mirage but it was probally the wanting to keep up with the jones type of thing. Of course I guess it could be worst, I could be riding Shimano😄

The mirage on my bike has about 8000 miles on it so it is no doubt due for some maintenance/ overhaul.

At ~8000 miles, your levers are definitely on the threshold of probably needing maintenance ...

If the WD-40 seems to have a temporary effect -- or, even if it doesn't -- then you may want to resort to what I chose to do with my circa-1998 Chorus levers -- I took the levers off the bike, and boiled them (in water) in a coffee can (you don't want to use your cookware!) to dissolve all of the grease inside the levers ... alternatively, you could just soak the levers in kerosene or paint thinner, but that would involve buying either solvent; and, you have to worry about solvent residue which could have a negative effect on subsequent lubrication.

No guarantees, but de-greasing may be all you need to do -- removing the old grease by boiling my Chorus levers in water really helped. And, as drastic as it sounds, I figured I had nothing to lose since my levers may have been beyond the point where your's currently are.

Initially, I re-lubed the levers without disassembling them ... I think I just squeezed some white lithium grease into the levers from the underside and then actuated the levers a few times to spread the grease around.

Cleaning the gunked-up grease from the levers apparently relieved the miniscule amount of resistance that the gunk had added which had allowed the left shifter to continue to be functional in its balky way ... disassembly revealed the faulty indexing gear ... hence, the subsequent lever replacement.

free_rideman said:

Or you can just get a jtek shiftmate?
I run Dura Ace 7800 rear dr. (9 speed cassette) with chorus shifters. Works perfectly! And it is cheap.

jtekengineering.comshiftmate.htmOpen ↗

One of the "tests" which I still have to do (I haven't attached my 10-speed 105 rear derailleur to an otherwise ready-to-ride bike, yet) is whether-or-not you couldn't just use the ALTERNATE ANCHOR POSITION [at 9 o'clock] to achieve the proper indexing without adding the expense of the JTEK SHIFTMATE.

FWIW. The attached pic is of one of my bikes with Campagnolo 9-speed shifters + XTR 950 medium cage rear derailleur sans JTEK SHIFTMATE and a 9-speed Shimano XT cassette -- I find that it works great when using the normal rear derailleur anchoring position ... of course, as they say: your results may vary.