Carbo loading

Quoted message said:

I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it
goes:

Hi All,
Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.
I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me
to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.
I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.
At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure
my
hourly carb deficit.
I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.
Does anyone have better numbers for this?

It must surely depend on the rider and his conditioning. How far can you
ride before you bonk assuming you eat nothing on the way?

It varies a lot depending on how many miles you've been doing. Someone
can go for a 30km ride every day, and get quite fit, and do the ride
quite fast, but will last only about 60km if he tries to go further.

But if the same rider starts to go for some longer rides, he will soon
be able to do 100km without bonking. But he's the same person, the same
weight, and goes at about the same speed. His body just somehow figured
out where to store the fuel.

[...]

Quoted message said:

This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.
So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?

The 4.5h ride probably needed about 3500 kcal. If you reckon you ate
400kcal/h, then that's 1800, which means you stored 1700 kcal.

That corresponds to only going 65km with no food at all, which doesn't
sound very far. I think 400kcal/h sounds like a lot, I should think
you're storing up more than you think.

I think there's no way to know except to test your own energy capacity
experimentally: bring water but no food, ride as far as you can and see
how far you get.

Alternatively take the distance you normally ride and double it for an
approximate figure. Then convert that to kcal.

Quoted message said:

I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it
goes:

Hi All,
Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.
I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me
to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.
I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.
At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure
my
hourly carb deficit.
I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.
Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal.
Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful
carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?
This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.
So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?
Joseph
PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

Joseph I have a article (in Dutch) which says that there is 100 gr carbs
(glycogeen) stored in the liver and 400-500 gr in the muscles, enough
for 2 race hours or 3 hour of endurance. With extra training you can
store some extra in the muscles which give you an extra 3/4 of an hour.

Lou

Ben C said:

On 2008-02-10, [email hidden] <[email hidden]>wrote:

Quoted message said:

I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it
goes:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,
Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.
I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me
to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.
I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.
At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure
my
hourly carb deficit.
I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.
Does anyone have better numbers for this?

It must surely depend on the rider and his conditioning. How far can you
ride before you bonk assuming you eat nothing on the way?

It varies a lot depending on how many miles you've been doing. Someone
can go for a 30km ride every day, and get quite fit, and do the ride
quite fast, but will last only about 60km if he tries to go further.

But if the same rider starts to go for some longer rides, he will soon
be able to do 100km without bonking. But he's the same person, the same
weight, and goes at about the same speed. His body just somehow figured
out where to store the fuel.

[...]

Quoted message said:

This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.
So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?

The 4.5h ride probably needed about 3500 kcal. If you reckon you ate
400kcal/h, then that's 1800, which means you stored 1700 kcal.

That corresponds to only going 65km with no food at all, which doesn't
sound very far. I think 400kcal/h sounds like a lot, I should think
you're storing up more than you think.

I think there's no way to know except to test your own energy capacity
experimentally: bring water but no food, ride as far as you can and see
how far you get.

Alternatively take the distance you normally ride and double it for an
approximate figure. Then convert that to kcal.

The 400 kcal/hr is not a historical number. It's what I figure is a
shade over my max absorbtion amount. On these rides last year, I did
not eat that much. And I suffered.

The 4.5hr race I figure I burned about 3900 kcal. 80-85% carbs. I
guess I ate maybe 600 kcal. That puts my stored capacity at about
2500kcal with no special preparations. That makes sense.

My most recent long-ish rides have been 3 hours with no food or drink
(it's been damp and cool, so I haven't missed the drink) and I had
zero problems. These were LSD type rides, so I figure kcal around
2200. Again makes sense given an expected 2500 reserves.

So then the question is how much more can carbo-loading theoretically
increase my reserves in terms of kcal? The things I've read suggest
80% increases in muscle gycogen is not unreasonable. But how much of
my total reserves are stored in these specific muscles. And would it
make sense to try to exercise and carbo-load other muscles like arms,
etc so they have their own extra reserves so they don't need to draw
from the ingested fuel? Or were they going to have enough anyway not
to ever need additional fuel?

Joseph

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it
goes:

Hi All,
Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.
I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me
to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.
I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.
At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure
my
hourly carb deficit.
I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.
Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal.
Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful
carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?
This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.
So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?
Joseph
PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

The box containing human metabolic potential is much bigger than many
people realize...

It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never won a
race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance and found
ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely endorphin rich
stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high was the primary
goal of riding.

Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on
during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally, ZERO
carbs):

5 hour solo century
Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder
145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day,
about 4 gallons.

What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient set
of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast enough
to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous range and
number of usable metabolic modes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle
--
Dave Reckoning
Noblesville, Indiana

aka Joseph Santaniello said:

...
My most recent long-ish rides have been 3 hours with no food or drink
(it's been damp and cool, so I haven't missed the drink) and I had
zero problems. These were LSD type rides[...]

Were they good or bad trips? 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Dave Reckoning said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it
goes:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,
Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.
I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me
to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.
I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.
At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure
my
hourly carb deficit.
I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.
Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal.
Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful
carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?
This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.
So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?
Joseph
PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

The box containing human  metabolic potential is much bigger than many
people realize...

Indeed. One look at top RAAM competitors is all that is needed there.

Quoted message said:

It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never won a
race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance and found
ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely endorphin  rich
stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high was the primary
goal of riding.

I routinely ride 3+ hours with no food. I usually only bring food for
a race where I know I will hit the wall if I don't. But for just rides
I figure I could afford to lose some weight, and I don't get hungry,
so why eat?

Though I've been in scores of races, I've only ever won one once and
that was a long time ago. So I'm not particularly fast either, and
have become more interested in long distance events over the years.

Quoted message said:

Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on
during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally, ZERO
carbs):

5 hour solo century
Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder
145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day,
about 4 gallons.

Sounds like fun!

Quoted message said:

What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient set
of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast enough
to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous range and
number of usable metabolic modes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle

I train/ride more or less just by how I feel, and I have no plans to
get too scientific about it. This has resulted in a pretty good level
of endurance. So for the purpose of specific races, I'd like to
optimize what I've managed to build up.

I don't have more than 8-12 hours per week to ride, so in that
department my results will be what they'll be. But I'd hate to be
short changing myself by pacing myself too slowly out of fear of
running dry.

Joseph

On Feb 10, 4:06 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

aka Joseph Santaniello said:

...
My most recent long-ish rides have been 3 hours with no food or drink
(it's been damp and cool, so I haven't missed the drink) and I had
zero problems. These were LSD type rides[...]

Were they good or bad trips? 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

All my trips are good ones!

Joseph

Dave Reckoning said:

The box containing human metabolic potential is much bigger than many
people realize...

It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never
won a race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance
and found ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely
endorphin rich stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high
was the primary goal of riding.

Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on
during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally,
ZERO carbs):

5 hour solo century
Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder
145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day,
about 4 gallons.

What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient
set of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast
enough to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous
range and number of usable metabolic modes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle

While I have also done long rides without eating (longest: 300km/192mi)
and so know it can be done, I don't see the point. It's apparently true
(according to the research I've read that the human body does make
long-term adjustments to a high fat diet that result in better fat
utilization during exercise*, but I don't know why anyone would
intentionally do that (unless circumstances dictate).

*http://tinyurl.com/2oxe7s

Peter Cole said:

Dave Reckoning said:

The box containing human  metabolic potential is much bigger than many
people realize...

Quoted message said:

It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never
won a race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance
and found ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely
endorphin  rich stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high
was the primary goal of riding.

Quoted message said:

Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on
during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally,
ZERO carbs):

Quoted message said:

5 hour solo century
Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder
145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day,
about 4 gallons.

Quoted message said:

What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient
set of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast
enough to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous
range and number of usable metabolic modes.

Quoted message said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle

While I have also done long rides without eating (longest: 300km/192mi)
and so know it can be done, I don't see the point. It's apparently true
(according to the research I've read that the human body does make
long-term adjustments to a high fat diet that result in better fat
utilization during exercise*, but I don't know why anyone would
intentionally do that (unless circumstances dictate).

*http://tinyurl.com/2oxe7s- Hide quoted text -

You did 192 miles without eating? Gadzooks! Why? I did a pedal to
the metal Seattle-to-Portland with a bunch of racer buddies many years
ago and stopped twice -- at 100 miles and about 150 miles, and I
started with a jersey full of old tech food (i.e. real food like
bananas). That ride, which is mostly flat, shows that long mileage
does not necessarily equate to high calorie output. We accumulated a
huge, cooperative pack and did the first 100 miles in a few minutes
under 4 hours. Although I took my required time at the front, much of
the time I was just sitting in the middle of the pack spinning my legs
around. I could have been reading a book. The second half of the ride
was a different story -- calorie output went up due to heat, hills and
pack collapse. We also hit the two day riders, some of whom wanted to
drop in to our group and prove that they could FU the tempo. --- Jay
Beattie.

On 2008-02-10, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

So then the question is how much more can carbo-loading theoretically
increase my reserves in terms of kcal? The things I've read suggest
80% increases in muscle gycogen is not unreasonable. But how much of
my total reserves are stored in these specific muscles. And would it
make sense to try to exercise and carbo-load other muscles like arms,
etc so they have their own extra reserves so they don't need to draw
from the ingested fuel? Or were they going to have enough anyway not
to ever need additional fuel?

How do you specifically carbo-load your arms? I thought carbo-loading
just meant waking up at four in the morning and stuffing your face with
spaghetti.

Ben C said:

On 2008-02-10, [email hidden] <[email hidden]>wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

So then the question is how much more can carbo-loading theoretically
increase my reserves in terms of kcal? The things I've read suggest
80% increases in muscle gycogen is not unreasonable. But how much of
my total reserves are stored in these specific muscles. And would it
make sense to try to exercise and carbo-load other muscles like arms,
etc so they have their own extra reserves so they don't need to draw
from the ingested fuel? Or were they going to have enough anyway not
to ever need additional fuel?

How do you specifically carbo-load your arms? I thought carbo-loading
just meant waking up at four in the morning and stuffing your face with
spaghetti.

There are various techniques, but basically the idea is to get the
muscles used in a disipline to "overstock" their supply of glycogen.
This is done by either depleting the glycogen stores or by exercising
quite vigourously for a brief period and the immediatley consuming a
bunch of carbs immediatly after and for a period when the muscles are
most receptive to replenishing. So to carbo-laod the arms as well, in
addition to sprints or whatever on the bike, I guess push-ups or
something to get the arms in on the act too.

Pigging out on spaghetti is just plain old over-eating.

Joseph

Jay Beattie said:

You did 192 miles without eating? Gadzooks! Why? I did a pedal to
the metal Seattle-to-Portland with a bunch of racer buddies many years
ago and stopped twice -- at 100 miles and about 150 miles, and I
started with a jersey full of old tech food (i.e. real food like
bananas).

It wasn't deliberate. It was one of my first brevets, I guess I got a
bit over-enthusiastic. I lost my appetite and didn't feel like forcing
myself to eat. I think I was so afraid of becoming lost that I stayed
with a pack of faster riders for the first 100 miles and did myself in.
The second half was a death march, as I recall. You live and learn.