Carbon frame intregrity after accident

"Jürgen Hartwig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had an accident in which a car pulled across my path. I struck the passenger rear quarter panel
and flew over the car, taking the bike

halfway

Quoted message said:

across the trunk. The fork was slightly bent (can be straightened), and front wheel was badly
warped. The frame is a ~1995 Trek 2300 with carbon main tubes bonded to aluminum lugs. The carbon
tubes look physically

fine.

Quoted message said:

One bike shop states there is the risk of internal damage, and I should consider replacing the
frame. Another shop states the frame is fine, straighten the fork, and replace the front wheel.

I have been unable to ride the bike due to a healing shoulder, so I cannot comment on how it
feels. Should I be concerned?

Jurgen

There is always going to be a little voice in the back of your head wondering if the bike is fine,
or if its going to break next time you hammer up a hill.

Have their insurance pay for it! You won't be able to tell if the bike's OK or not, so replacement
is better than the alternative.

I vote for replacement. If for no other reason than the stress it will get rid of in the long run.

Mike

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in news:Wvjnb.83743$vj2.22055@fed1read06:

Quoted message said:

Have their insurance pay for it! You won't be able to tell if the bike's OK or not, so replacement
is better than the alternative.

I agree. One shop recommending replacement should be enough for the insurance company.

Quoted message said:

I had an accident in which a car pulled across my path. I struck the passenger rear quarter panel
and flew over the car, taking the bike halfway across the trunk. The fork was slightly bent (can
be straightened), and front wheel was badly warped. The frame is a ~1995 Trek 2300 with carbon
main tubes bonded to aluminum lugs. The carbon tubes look physically fine. One bike shop states
there is the risk of internal damage, and I should consider replacing the frame. Another shop
states the frame is fine, straighten the fork, and replace the front wheel.

composites are hard to judge. aerospace inspection techniques are prohibitively expensive and even
then, not necessarily reliable.

you're therefore stuck with trying to load the frame with some multiple of the safe working load and
seeing if it either fails or deflects more than a known safe frame. again, that may not be
practical. your only other "safe" option is returning to the manufacturer for inspection and seeing
what they say.

alternatively, if you just want to wing it, you can take comfort from the fact that many composite
frames are substantially stronger than their metallic counterparts and if you've not already broken
it, can find no evidence of structural damage, and the frame shows no evidence of increased flex or
handling peculiarities, it might well be ok. composites are similar to wood in that if it looks ok,
it often /is/ ok
- if it looks cracked, it's not.

jb

Thanks for the response guys.

My biggest worry is getting on the bike, and having a failure at a later date. If such a thing
happened after I settled with the insurance company, I'm screwed (especially if I injured myself).
On the other hand, my gut says the frameset is probably fine. I think there is validity to either
side, and it will likely become a personal decision.

Wish this had never happened. My life would be far less complicated. 🙁

Jürgen

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, my gut says the frameset is probably fine. I think there is validity to either
side, and it will likely become a personal decision.

Your gut is probably right, but the motorist owes you a bike that you don't even have to ask such
questions about. You didn't before, right? So why should you be riding something that you'd even
question, if it's their fault?

If it was your own fault, fine, you could rationalize that it's probably fine and just keep an eye
on things. But why should *you* have to rationalize anything in this particular case?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Jürgen Hartwig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the response guys.

My biggest worry is getting on the bike, and having a failure at a later date. If such a thing
happened after I settled with the insurance

company,

Quoted message said:

I'm screwed (especially if I injured myself). On the other hand, my gut says the frameset is
probably fine. I think there is validity to either side, and it will likely become a personal
decision.

Wish this had never happened. My life would be far less complicated. 🙁

Jürgen

jhartwig-<< I had an accident in which a car pulled across my path. I struck the passenger rear
quarter panel and flew over the car, taking the bike halfway across the trunk. The fork was slightly
bent (can be straightened), and front wheel was badly warped. The frame is a ~1995 Trek 2300 with
carbon main tubes bonded to aluminum lugs. The carbon tubes look physically fine. One bike shop
states there is the risk of internal damage, and I should consider replacing the frame. Another shop
states the frame is fine, straighten the fork, and replace the front wheel.

I have been unable to ride the bike due to a healing shoulder, so I cannot comment on how it feels.
Should I be concerned?

yes, no way to tell if the carbon tubes are 'bruised' and may crack/fail w/o noyice. carbon is
wonderful but when in an accident like yours, you cannot really tell if the tubes are compromised.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jhartwig-<< I had an accident in which a car pulled across my path. I struck the passenger rear
quarter panel and flew over the car, taking the bike halfway across the trunk. The fork was
slightly bent (can be straightened), and front wheel was badly warped. The frame is a ~1995 Trek
2300 with carbon main tubes bonded to aluminum lugs. The carbon tubes look physically fine. One
bike shop states there is the risk of internal damage, and I should consider replacing the frame.
Another shop states the frame is fine, straighten the fork, and replace the front wheel.

I have been unable to ride the bike due to a healing shoulder, so I cannot comment on how it
feels. Should I be concerned?

yes, no way to tell if the carbon tubes are 'bruised' and may crack/fail w/o noyice. carbon is
wonderful but when in an accident like yours, you cannot really tell if the tubes are compromised.

Peter is right, there really is no sure way to tell, w/o X-ray equipment (which is what aerospace
and race car folks use).

But you can extrapolate that damage is likely. Look at it this way -- the fork was bent. Any impact
that great on a modern lightweight steel or aluminum frame will usually damage the frame too --
buckling or cracking the top and down tubes. Carbon frames are generally designed for the same
stresses, and to be as lightweight as possible. So it's likely they're not that much stronger than a
3.5 LB steel frame or 3 LB aluminum one.

I'd replace the thing. You already have one shop's word, so you shouldn't have too much trouble
getting the guy's insurance to pay for it. You have nothing to lose. Why even take the risk?

Matt O.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the response guys. My biggest worry is getting on the bike, and having a failure at a
later date. If such a thing happened after I settled with the insurance company, I'm screwed
(especially if I injured myself). On the other hand, my gut says the frameset is probably fine. I
think there is validity to either side, and it will likely become a personal decision. Wish this
had never happened. My life would be far less complicated. 🙁

Send it back to Trek and have them examine the bike. They can tell you for sure if the frame is ok
or needs to be replaced.
---------------
Alex

"Jürgen Hartwig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I had an accident in which a car pulled across my path. I struck the passenger rear quarter panel
and flew over the car, taking the bike halfway across the trunk. The fork was slightly bent (can
be straightened), and front wheel was badly warped. The frame is a ~1995 Trek 2300 with carbon
main tubes bonded to aluminum lugs. The carbon tubes look physically fine. One bike shop states
there is the risk of internal damage, and I should consider replacing the frame. Another shop
states the frame is fine, straighten the fork, and replace the front wheel.

I have been unable to ride the bike due to a healing shoulder, so I cannot comment on how it
feels. Should I be concerned?

Jurgen

Dear Jurgen,

Which bike would you buy if you saw two similar bikes sitting next to each other, one brand new and
one 8 years old that had been in a crash and condemned by a bike shop?

Hell, which bike would you rent for your mother, your wife, or your daughter to ride?

Think of yourself, not the bike.

Carl Fogel

I visited two respected local shops today, and I'm going to buy a new bike. I was really impressed
with the Giant TCR Composite line and the Specialized Roubaix.

After making first contact with the at-fault party and his insurance company, it sounds like
the next few weeks/months will not be fun. I will stop worrying now. I will do what it takes to
make me happy.

Thanks again everyone.

Jürgen

Quoted message said:

After making first contact with the at-fault party and his insurance company, it sounds like the
next few weeks/months will not be fun. I will stop worrying now. I will do what it takes to make
me happy.

If that's the case see a lawyer. If I remember you were injured as well as having the bike damaged.
If the insurance company is going to be tough you get tough as well. Phil Brown

[email hidden] (Phil Brown) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After making first contact with the at-fault party and his insurance company, it sounds like the
next few weeks/months will not be fun. I will stop worrying now. I will do what it takes to make
me happy.

If that's the case see a lawyer. If I remember you were injured as well as having the bike
damaged. If the insurance company is going to be tough you get tough as well. Phil Brown

Dear Phil,

The best revenge is living well, or at least smiling while your enemies grind their teeth.

A lawyer and even a trial may be necessary, but it's surprising how often people find arbitration
far quicker, cheaper, and more satisfying.

Although Jurgen has stopped worrying about one thing, he sounds as if he's dreading the next few
months of legal grief.

The emotional costs, the time, and the money involved in a lawsuit to recover the value of an
8-year-old bike may mean that the best thing to do is to walk away from it all--whatever it takes to
make Jurgen happy.

First thing we do, let's kill all the insurance agents?

Carl Fogel

(Phil Brown) said:

If that's the case see a lawyer. If I remember you were injured as well as having the bike damaged.
If the insurance company is going to be tough you get tough as well.

Agreed. They expect you to get a lawyer, and will push you around if you don't. If you do, they will
do business with the lawyer and make a standard deal, which ought to be good. A professional, even
after paying him, will net you the same or better, with you having to deal with less bullschitt.

What's that cliche? The man who represents himself has a fool for a client?

Quoted message said:

Phil Brown

--
Rick Onanian

(Carl Fogel) said:

A lawyer and even a trial may be necessary, but it's surprising how often people find arbitration
far quicker, cheaper, and more satisfying.

That only works if a lawyer does it.

Quoted message said:

Although Jurgen has stopped worrying about one thing, he sounds as if he's dreading the next few
months of legal grief.

Good reason to get a lawyer to do the hard legal work for you!

Quoted message said:

First thing we do, let's kill all the insurance agents?

The agents are the good guys. It's the adjusters who are the problem -- or if you talk to any
individual adjuster, it is (of course) his supervisor that's the problem. Of course, that supervisor
would tell you that the problem is company policy. Ad nauseum.

Once the lawyer gets involved, it gets easier. The insurance company just deals quietly with the
lawyer. The lawyer asks you for things. You feel left out. You wonder what the hell is going on.
Then, one day, you get a check.

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

--
Rick Onanian

Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:
: start with AIG please.

agreed.

next anyone having anything to do with health insurance.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, Jürgen Hartwig

Quoted message said:

I had an accident in which a car pulled across my path. I struck the passenger rear quarter panel
and flew over the car, taking the bike halfway across the trunk. The fork was slightly bent (can be
straightened), and front wheel was badly warped. The frame is a ~1995 Trek 2300 with carbon main
tubes bonded to aluminum lugs. The carbon tubes look physically fine. One bike shop states there is
the risk of internal damage, and I should consider replacing the frame. Another shop states the
frame is fine, straighten the fork, and replace the front wheel.

I have been unable to ride the bike due to a healing shoulder, so I cannot comment on how it feels.
Should I be concerned?

In my experience insurance companies do not want to hear a long detailed explanation of what is
wrong with your bike. They usually just want to know if the bike needs to be replaced, and what it
will cost. If you add up the true cost of all repairs (including cosmetic, using original parts,
repainted at the factory, etc) you will probably reach the price of a new bike. With a questionable
frame, trashed fork, trashed wheel, probably some other damaged bits such as seat, handlebar tape,
etc. not to mention damage to paint - frankly it would be a lot of money to really make your bike
the way it was before the accident and they do pretty much owe you a new one. A new one means a 5200
in my opinion, as the closest thing in the Trek product line today.

Your "slightly bent" fork should not be straightened unless it is steel which I doubt.

--Paul

David Reuteler <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:
: start with AIG please.

agreed.

next anyone having anything to do with health insurance.

Dear David and Peter,

Honest, I'm willing to join any cheerful lynch mob, but I can't follow the sectarian hatreds here. I
tried the acronym lookup, but doubt that you loathe German gynecologists or international
gerontologists or assistant inspectors general.

American Insurance Group? Any Insurance Group? All Insurance Groups?

Some famous person's initials?

See the official list below.

Carl Fogel

acronymfinder.comacronymfinder.comOpen ↗

What does aig stand for? Your search returned 19 meanings

Acronym Definition @Amazon.com AIG Acquisition Improvement Group AIG Address Indicator Group AIG
Addressee Identification Group AIG Advertising Information Group (Brussels, Belgium) AIG Air
Intelligence Group AIG Airbus Industries Group AIG American International Group, Inc AIG Amplifier
Interface Group AIG Answers in Genesis (religious group in defense of Scripture) AIG Antitrust and
Indemnity Group AIG Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Informationsverarbeitung in Gynäkologie Und Geburtshilfe
AIG Architecture Integration Group AIG Army Initiatives Group AIG Artificial Intelligence Group AIG
Asociación de Industriales de Guatemala (Association of Industrialists of Guatemala 1929-34) AIG
Assistant Inspector General AIG Assistant Instructor in Gunnery (Canadian and British Military) AIG
Association Internationale de Gérontologie (International Association of Gerontology) AIG
Authentication Implementation

Carl Fogel <[email hidden]> wrote:
: American Insurance Group? Any Insurance Group? All Insurance Groups?

aig.comaig.comOpen ↗

AIG We Know Money(sm)

(i kid you not)
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

(Paul Southworth) said:

In my experience insurance companies do not want to hear a long detailed explanation of what is
wrong with your bike. They usually

Agreed. My bike was on the trunk rack when I was rear-ended, and my experience was the same.

Quoted message said:

will probably reach the price of a new bike. With a questionable frame, trashed fork, trashed
wheel, probably some other damaged

BTW, consider getting the bike shop to quote re-building the wheel, which may be more expensive than
replacing it.

Quoted message said:

--Paul

--
Rick Onanian