Cassette modification question

Joel said:

I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?

Thanks - Joel

I don't know if Ultegra cassettes can be dismantled. If they can't
check this link out.

http://tinyurl.com/y96wcc

Harris Cyclery has a 9 speed 12-30 cassette. It's called the "CS914
Century 12."

Joel said:

I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?

Thanks - Joel

Problem is getting the 30t to be spaced correctly behind the 'carrier'
the 3 biggest cogs are on. Start with a 105 cogset, unhook, make them
all loose, then you can make a custom cogset. "May" have shifting
issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps and windows don't
line up.

Joel said:

Quoted message said:

I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Problem is getting the 30t to be spaced correctly behind the 'carrier'
the 3 biggest cogs are on.

That's an imaginary problem.

The 14 has a loose spacer. When you remove the 14 you also remove the
spacer, and use that spacer betwixt the 27 and the 30.

We have sold HUNDREDS of these cassettes, it is not a problem.

Quoted message said:

Start with a 105 cogset, unhook, make them
all loose, then you can make a custom cogset.

There is no such thing as a 12-27 _105_ "cogset" (cassette.) That
combination only exists in Ultegra and Dura-Ace.

There is no loose 27 tooth sprocket made by Shimano...that size only
exists as part of a 21-24-27 spider module.

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps and windows don't
line up.

The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. |
| Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps
and windows don't
line up.

The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx were both using friction downtube shifters
though, which required that the "finesse" in shifting exist in the skill of
the user, not the mechanics of the drivetrain. You can't undershift, nor can
you force anything past a marginal overshift of an STI system, as you can
with friction shifting.

Will it "work?" Yes. Will it work as well as having the ramps lined up in
the right places? No. Is that good enough? For some people, yes, for others,
no. I think those of us who are older and grew up with friction shifting are
probably more likely to forgive the performance hit (with improperly-lined
ramps and other compromises) than someone who essentially grew up with
modern indexed shifting.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Joel said:

Quoted message said:

I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Problem is getting the 30t to be spaced correctly behind the 'carrier'
the 3 biggest cogs are on.

That's an imaginary problem.

The 14 has a loose spacer. When you remove the 14 you also remove the
spacer, and use that spacer betwixt the 27 and the 30.

We have sold HUNDREDS of these cassettes, it is not a problem.

Quoted message said:

Start with a 105 cogset, unhook, make them
all loose, then you can make a custom cogset.

There is no such thing as a 12-27 _105_ "cogset" (cassette.) That
combination only exists in Ultegra and Dura-Ace.

There is no loose 27 tooth sprocket made by Shimano...that size only
exists as part of a 21-24-27 spider module.

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps
and windows don't
line up.

The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. |
| Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps
and windows don't
line up.

The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx were both using friction downtube shifters
though, which required that the "finesse" in shifting exist in the skill of
the user, not the mechanics of the drivetrain. You can't undershift, nor can
you force anything past a marginal overshift of an STI system, as you can
with friction shifting.

Will it "work?" Yes. Will it work as well as having the ramps lined up in
the right places? No. Is that good enough? For some people, yes, for others,
no. I think those of us who are older and grew up with friction shifting are
probably more likely to forgive the performance hit (with improperly-lined
ramps and other compromises) than someone who essentially grew up with
modern indexed shifting.

They might notice a lack of ramps, but I seriously doubt they would
notice ramps that are not at the default position.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Will it "work?" Yes. Will it work as well as having the ramps lined up in
the right places? No. Is that good enough? For some people, yes, for others,
no. I think those of us who are older and grew up with friction shifting are
probably more likely to forgive the performance hit (with improperly-lined
ramps and other compromises) than someone who essentially grew up with
modern indexed shifting.

In my limited experience, the ramps are more important in the smaller
cogs and make little difference in larger ones, i.e., 27 to a 30t.
Have people noticed that the Sram 10sp cassettes acutually have what
apprears to be filed down teeth on smaller cogs?

Sheldon Brown said:

Joel said:

Quoted message said:

I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Start with a 105 cogset, unhook, make them
all loose, then you can make a custom cogset.

There is no such thing as a 12-27 _105_ "cogset" (cassette.) That
combination only exists in Ultegra and Dura-Ace.

There is no loose 27 tooth sprocket made by Shimano...that size only
exists as part of a 21-24-27 spider module.

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the
ramps and windows don't line up.

I might have problems not with shifting but with a nasty jump from 13 to
15. This is a matter of personal preference, but I would suggest to get
rid of the 21-24-27 spider already replacing it with something like
21-25-32 or 21-24-28, the latter from an 8-speed cassette modified with
narrow spacers.
If the 12 has low priority for the OP HG-70 13-25 is a good starting
point for something like 13-28 or 13-32. As can be easily deduced from
these suggestions I stronly prefer one tooth jumps in the larger gears
and bigger ones for the uphill sections. Even going from 25 to 32 works
nicely IME and the 32 is highly welcome for very steep sections.

Günther

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx were both using friction downtube
shifters though, which required that the "finesse" in shifting exist in
the skill of the user, not the mechanics of the drivetrain. You can't
undershift, nor can you force anything past a marginal overshift of an
STI system, as you can with friction shifting.

Will it "work?" Yes. Will it work as well as having the ramps lined up in
the right places? No. Is that good enough? For some people, yes, for
others, no. I think those of us who are older and grew up with friction
shifting are probably more likely to forgive the performance hit (with
improperly-lined ramps and other compromises) than someone who
essentially grew up with modern indexed shifting.

They might notice a lack of ramps, but I seriously doubt they would notice
ramps that are not at the default position.

The ramps are placed in a specific location to facilitate moving from one
cog (or chainring) to the next. They encourage the chain to shift at a
particular time (position on the cog), so that, when you're shifting to the
next-larger cog, the chain is moving up at the right time to catch a tooth
profile that's specifically made to engage an upshifting chain a bit more
readily. If your ramps aren't synchronized, this doesn't happen, and the
chain will be climbing up onto the next cog in a less-than-optimal position.

Will it shift? Yes. Will it shift as well as it would if the ramps were in
the right position? No.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> "May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps
> and windows don't
> line up.
The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx were both using friction downtube
shifters though, which required that the "finesse" in shifting exist in
the skill of the user, not the mechanics of the drivetrain. You can't
undershift, nor can you force anything past a marginal overshift of an
STI system, as you can with friction shifting.

Will it "work?" Yes. Will it work as well as having the ramps lined up in
the right places? No. Is that good enough? For some people, yes, for
others, no. I think those of us who are older and grew up with friction
shifting are probably more likely to forgive the performance hit (with
improperly-lined ramps and other compromises) than someone who
essentially grew up with modern indexed shifting.

They might notice a lack of ramps, but I seriously doubt they would notice
ramps that are not at the default position.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx were both using friction downtube
shifters though, which required that the "finesse" in shifting exist in
the skill of the user, not the mechanics of the drivetrain. You can't
undershift, nor can you force anything past a marginal overshift of an
STI system, as you can with friction shifting.

Will it "work?" Yes. Will it work as well as having the ramps lined up in
the right places? No. Is that good enough? For some people, yes, for
others, no. I think those of us who are older and grew up with friction
shifting are probably more likely to forgive the performance hit (with
improperly-lined ramps and other compromises) than someone who
essentially grew up with modern indexed shifting.

They might notice a lack of ramps, but I seriously doubt they would notice
ramps that are not at the default position.

The ramps are placed in a specific location to facilitate moving from one
cog (or chainring) to the next. They encourage the chain to shift at a
particular time (position on the cog), so that, when you're shifting to the
next-larger cog, the chain is moving up at the right time to catch a tooth
profile that's specifically made to engage an upshifting chain a bit more
readily. If your ramps aren't synchronized, this doesn't happen, and the
chain will be climbing up onto the next cog in a less-than-optimal position.

Will it shift? Yes. Will it shift as well as it would if the ramps were in
the right position? No.

The only major help is on sequential shifts, and even then I never
notice it.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Sheldon Brown said:

Joel said:

Quoted message said:

I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Problem is getting the 30t to be spaced correctly behind the 'carrier'
the 3 biggest cogs are on.

That's an imaginary problem.

The 14 has a loose spacer. When you remove the 14 you also remove the
spacer, and use that spacer betwixt the 27 and the 30.

We have sold HUNDREDS of these cassettes, it is not a problem.

Quoted message said:

Start with a 105 cogset, unhook, make them
all loose, then you can make a custom cogset.

There is no such thing as a 12-27 _105_ "cogset" (cassette.) That
combination only exists in Ultegra and Dura-Ace.

Sorry, Sheldon, a few minutes with a punch and out come the pins and
viola, a loose 12-27 '105' cogset.

Quoted message said:

There is no loose 27 tooth sprocket made by Shimano...that size only
exists as part of a 21-24-27 spider module.

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps and windows don't
line up.

The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

BUT with STI, non-overshifted, STI, those ramps 'can' be essential.
When ya can't overshift and shimano does NOT overshift, it CAN be a big
problem. MUST shift 'down' 2 and then 'up' one, to get onto the 15t.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. |
| Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

...
Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life....

Has this been verified in the field or laboratory?

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Joel said:

> I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
> Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?
>

Peter Chisholm replied:

Quoted message said:

Problem is getting the 30t to be spaced correctly behind the 'carrier'
the 3 biggest cogs are on.

That's an imaginary problem.

The 14 has a loose spacer. When you remove the 14 you also remove the
spacer, and use that spacer betwixt the 27 and the 30.

We have sold HUNDREDS of these cassettes, it is not a problem.

Quoted message said:

Start with a 105 cogset, unhook, make them
all loose, then you can make a custom cogset.

There is no such thing as a 12-27 _105_ "cogset" (cassette.) That
combination only exists in Ultegra and Dura-Ace.

Sorry, Sheldon, a few minutes with a punch and out come the pins and
viola, a loose 12-27 '105' cogset.

Huh? where you going to get the 27t from? Sheldon's point was only
Ultegra and Dura Ace has 27t. (iirc 105 goes up to 25t.) You can
scour heaven and earth but you ain't going to find a Shimano 27t unless
it comes from Ultegra or Dura Ace cassette, and part of the spider to
boot.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is no loose 27 tooth sprocket made by Shimano...that size only
exists as part of a 21-24-27 spider module.

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps and windows don't
line up.

The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

BUT with STI, non-overshifted, STI, those ramps 'can' be essential.
When ya can't overshift and shimano does NOT overshift, it CAN be a big
problem. MUST shift 'down' 2 and then 'up' one, to get onto the 15t.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. |
| Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Günther Schwarz said:

I might have problems not with shifting but with a nasty jump from 13 to
15. This is a matter of personal preference, but I would suggest to get
rid of the 21-24-27 spider already replacing it with something like
21-25-32 or 21-24-28,

That's a LOT more expensvie than just buying a 30 tooth sprocket
(US$9.95) to use with his existing 12-27 9-speed cassette.

Quoted message said:

the latter from an 8-speed cassette modified with narrow spacers.

That's doing it the hard way! One of our least expensive custom
cassettes is the High & Wide:

11-12-13-14-16-18-21-24-28 See: http://harriscyclery.com/9

We make this from an LX 12-32: we ditch the 32, and stick on an 11 on
top.

If you don't want the 11 (I don't blame you) you couls stick a 15
betwixt the 14 and 16.

Quoted message said:

If the 12 has low priority for the OP HG-70 13-25 is a good starting
point for something like 13-28 or 13-32. As can be easily deduced from
these suggestions I stronly prefer one tooth jumps in the larger gears
and bigger ones for the uphill sections. Even going from 25 to 32 works
nicely IME and the 32 is highly welcome for very steep sections.

I strongly agree. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/gear-theory

Sheldon "Close Above, Wide Below" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| If you only know Mussorgski's Pictures at an Exhibition |
| from the Ravel or Stokowski "colorized" versions, (with |
| orchestra) seek out the original piano solo version. |
| I think it is much superior! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Günther Schwarz said:

I might have problems not with shifting but with a nasty jump from 13 to
15. This is a matter of personal preference, but I would suggest to get
rid of the 21-24-27 spider already replacing it with something like
21-25-32 or 21-24-28,

That's a LOT more expensvie than just buying a 30 tooth sprocket
(US$9.95) to use with his existing 12-27 9-speed cassette.

Quoted message said:

the latter from an 8-speed cassette modified with narrow spacers.

That's doing it the hard way! One of our least expensive custom
cassettes is the High & Wide:

11-12-13-14-16-18-21-24-28 See: http://harriscyclery.com/9

We make this from an LX 12-32: we ditch the 32, and stick on an 11 on
top.

If you don't want the 11 (I don't blame you) you couls stick a 15
betwixt the 14 and 16.

Quoted message said:

If the 12 has low priority for the OP HG-70 13-25 is a good starting
point for something like 13-28 or 13-32. As can be easily deduced from
these suggestions I stronly prefer one tooth jumps in the larger gears
and bigger ones for the uphill sections. Even going from 25 to 32 works
nicely IME and the 32 is highly welcome for very steep sections.

I strongly agree. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/gear-theory

Sheldon "Close Above, Wide Below" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| If you only know Mussorgski's Pictures at an Exhibition |
| from the Ravel or Stokowski "colorized" versions, (with |
| orchestra) seek out the original piano solo version. |
| I think it is much superior! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

I said:

Quoted message said:

There is no such thing as a 12-27 _105_ "cogset" (cassette.) That
combination only exists in Ultegra and Dura-Ace.

Sorry, Sheldon, a few minutes with a punch and out come the pins and
viola, a loose 12-27 '105' cogset.

Sorry, I was imprecise...we were talking about _9-speed_ cassettes, not
10-speed. There is no 12-27 _9-speed_ cassette.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"May" have shifting issues fron the 13t to 15t tho, with all the ramps and windows don't
line up.

The shifting ramps and gates make the shifts a bit quieter, but they're
nothing close to a necessity.

Jacques Anquetil and Eddy Merckx each won 5 Tours de France without
them.

BUT with STI, non-overshifted, STI, those ramps 'can' be essential.

"Essential?" Never! I don't buy it.

Quoted message said:

When ya can't overshift and shimano does NOT overshift, it CAN be a big
problem. MUST shift 'down' 2 and then 'up' one, to get onto the 15t.

Not if it's properly adjusted and set up. This sort of problem is
usually caused by either excess cable friction or the "B-tension" being
set too tight.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "No Problem" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. |
| Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Günther Schwarz said:

I might have problems not with shifting but with a nasty jump from 13
to 15. This is a matter of personal preference, but I would suggest
to get rid of the 21-24-27 spider already replacing it with something
like 21-25-32 or 21-24-28,

That's a LOT more expensvie than just buying a 30 tooth sprocket
(US$9.95) to use with his existing 12-27 9-speed cassette.

Well, I've got the habit to take them from the dust bin. Mountain bikes
are quite popular around here for use in the City area. Many riders are
lazy shifters and in combination with flat terrain this results in worn
out 13, 15, 17 or 19 and almost perfect condition of the large
sprockets. I also ignore the tiny differences between sprockets for 7,
8 and 9 speed systems which gives me a wider choice for my recycling
activities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the latter from an 8-speed cassette modified with narrow spacers.

That's doing it the hard way! One of our least expensive custom
cassettes is the High & Wide:

11-12-13-14-16-18-21-24-28 See: http://harriscyclery.com/9

We make this from an LX 12-32: we ditch the 32, and stick on an 11 on
top.

Using all new components and starting with an entire cassette of course
changes the bill. I also do appreciate your commitment to costum
cassettes which are hard to find parts indeed.

Günther

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

The ramps are placed in a specific location to facilitate moving from one
cog (or chainring) to the next. They encourage the chain to shift at a
particular time (position on the cog), so that, when you're shifting to the
next-larger cog, the chain is moving up at the right time to catch a tooth
profile that's specifically made to engage an upshifting chain a bit more
readily. If your ramps aren't synchronized, this doesn't happen, and the
chain will be climbing up onto the next cog in a less-than-optimal position.

It seems to me that on a single shift to a larger cog, the ramp built into
that cog is doing the work, and the cog you're coming from is essentially
irrelevant. Viz, the smallest cog never having any ramps and pins or
whatever, and neither do grannies up front.

On a multiple shift to larger cog, I can see it mattering whether the
chain encounters both or all three ramps more or less neatly sequentially,
rather than at random places on the cogset.

For shifting to smaller cogs, I'm not entirely convinced all the ramping
and pinning in the world matters one whit -- it's never hard to dump the
chain 'downhill' to smaller cogs.

Jasper

On 24 Nov 2006 17:06:06 -0800, "damyth" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Huh? where you going to get the 27t from? Sheldon's point was only
Ultegra and Dura Ace has 27t. (iirc 105 goes up to 25t.) You can
scour heaven and earth but you ain't going to find a Shimano 27t unless
it comes from Ultegra or Dura Ace cassette, and part of the spider to
boot.

There's a 105 12-27 in 10 speed, though, maybe Peter was thinking of that
one.

Jasper

Yes, the three outermost cogs are loose, so you can do that. Just move the
spacer that was between the 14 and 15 to the inside of the cassette to space
the 30 from the 27.

Nick

"Joel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have an Ultegra 9 speed 12-27 cassette.
Can I add a 30T cog and remove the 14T ending up with a 12-30?