Catsup/Catchup/Ketchup -- the spelling

Max Hauser said:

Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.

I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
good enough. ;-D

--
Steve

Steve wrote on Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:10:52 -0400:

SC> Max Hauser wrote:
??>> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of
??>> an old condiment.

SC> I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
SC> good enough. ;-D

I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me.
"Catchup", I don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it
supposed to be derived from a Chinese condiment transcribed as
"catsiap". There are more ketchups than tomato: mushroom ketchup
is available in England but I can't say that I like it. By the
way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but it might be an
interesting survey to find the brands that people like. I have
to admit that my favorite is Heinz or possibly DelMonte which
tastes almost identical as, believe it or not, so do some
grocery chain house brands.. Hunt's isn't bad but doesn't taste
quite the same to me.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Ketchup and its ironies have venerable history on this newsgroup. Here's an
example from 23 years ago (before net.cooks changed its name to
rec.food.cooking). As I mentioned in the original posting, for most of
ketchup's history in the US, it existed in many kinds besides tomato, was
often homemade, and had no added sugar.

In <news:[email hidden]>, 29 January 1984,
rabbit!ark (Andrew Koenig, a familiar name on newsgroups in the 1980s)

Quoted message said:

Newsgroups: net.cooks,net.misc

Subject: natural imitation ketchup (serious quote)

Excerpt from 1984 Consumer Reports buying guide:

"Today, sugar is a mandatory ingredient for a product called ketchup,
catsup, or catchup, according to current Food and Drug Administration
Standard of Identity. Tomatoes, vinegar, spices or flavoring (or both),
onions or garlic (or both), and salt are also included in the standard.
Salt can be omitted as long as the container is clearly labeled 'no salt
added.' Without sugar, however, the product has to be called 'imitation'
ketchup which leads some makers into interesting ironies.

"For some reason, the FDA specifies sucrose, dextrose, glucose syrup, or
corn syrup as the only appropriate sugars for ketchup. But certain ketchup
makers choose instead to use honey or corn sweeteners, which some regard as
more 'natural' sugars. Thus it is that, among the 18 brands we tested, two
are strangely and wonderfully labeled 'natural imitation ketchup.' "

Welcome to 1984.

"James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:se0Ai.4950$oh1.3365@trnddc04...

Quoted message said:

Steve wrote on Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:10:52 -0400:

SC> Max Hauser wrote:
??>> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of
??>> an old condiment.

SC> I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
SC> good enough. ;-D

I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me. "Catchup", I
don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it supposed to be derived from a
Chinese condiment transcribed as "catsiap". There are more ketchups than
tomato: mushroom ketchup is available in England but I can't say that I
like it. By the way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but it might
be an interesting survey to find the brands that people like. I have to
admit that my favorite is Heinz or possibly DelMonte which tastes almost
identical as, believe it or not, so do some grocery chain house brands..
Hunt's isn't bad but doesn't taste quite the same to me.
James Silverton

I'd love to try some mushroom ketchup some day. We like the curry flavored
tomato catsup we were frequently served in Germany. I have a friend that
swears by a brand she buys home in Kansas City. Blairs, or Bishops, or
something. I detected a widgeon (scientific term) more cinnamon and sugar in
that one. Not bad.
Edrena

Max Hauser said:

Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.

In fact it's a phonetic word, evidently imported into English and without
traditional consistent spelling (data below), a situation not uncommon.
(Another example that arose on newsgroups is "recipe" and "receipt,"
pronounced differently today in NA English although "receipt" appears
interchangeably with "recipe" in older cookbooks. A scholar of 18th-century
English advises that they were the same word originally, just different
spellings.) Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
please, and they do.

Some where i have a walnut catsup recipe, in a section of a book with
several variations, here's the entry from my dictionary

catsup |ˈke ch əp; ˈka ch əp; ˈkatsəp| noun variant spelling of ketchup
.. ketchup |ˈke ch əp| (also catsup pronounce. same or |ˈka ch əp;
ˈkatsəp|) noun a spicy sauce made chiefly from tomatoes and vinegar,
used as a condiment. ORIGIN late 17th cent.: perhaps from Chinese (
Cantonese dialect) k'ē chap ‘tomato juice.’
--
JL

Quoted message said:

As shown below, popular US cookbooks for 200 years normally spelled it
catsup. I seem to remember such spelling as common on tomato-catsup bottles
through about the 1960s, ketchup gradually displacing it (more phonetic, or
a British Invasion? Compare Mrs Beeton below). At the same time, catsups as
a wide class of savory condiments, from various vegetables, fruits, or
seafoods, and normally unsweetened, became eclipsed by commercial tomato
catsup, which also got sweeter. The Hesses in _The Taste of America_
(1977), who by the way spell it ketchup, note that it was widely homemade,
in various flavors, until recent times. They cite OED for the Amoy Chinese
word kétsiap, and say the Malay word kechap may also come from that source.
The Hesses wryly add that a modern US firm developed a bottled ketchup with
natural tomato flavor but it didn't sell, until the product was "slightly
scorched and a metallic component added to give it the taste of 'real'
ketchup." (A comment fairly representative of their book.)

What I found in popular, mostly US, published cookbooks:

Mary Randolph,* 1824 (edition of 1860): "Catsup"

Eliza Leslie, 1837 (edition 1851): "Catchup" (including "Tomata"
tchup.) -- A chapter with eight recipes. Three include wine, one beer.

Mrs Beeton (British, edition 1861): "Ketchup"

Fannie Farmer, 1927: "Catsup"

Morrison Wood (_With A Jug of Wine_), 1949: "Catsup"

Joy of Cooking, 1964: "Catsup"

Fannie Farmer, 1965: "Catsup" (five recipes)

Respectfully submitted -- Max

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Calvin said:

Max Hauser said:

Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.

I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
good enough. ;-D

Yeah.

I spell it alternately depending on my mood.
Either Catsup or Ketchup.

My spell checker passes both of them!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

Max Hauser said:

Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old
condiment.

In fact it's a phonetic word, evidently imported into English and without
traditional consistent spelling (data below), a situation not uncommon.

In Andrew Smith's book, Pure Ketchup (available used from Amazon, about
$4+shipping), the history of our second favorite condiment is documented,
from it's origins in asia, to seamen carrying it from port to port, to
ketchup on our fries. The origin seems to be with an asian sauce, "kecap"
or "kê-tsiap", depending on where in asia. If I recall correctly, way back
before the "new world" gave the tomato to the world, ketchup was often made
from walnuts.
It's been a while since I read the book; but, it is an interesting read, as
are all Smith's food/culture writings.

--
Change Cujo to Juno in email address.

On Aug 25, 3:24 pm, "James Silverton" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Steve wrote on Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:10:52 -0400:

SC> Max Hauser wrote:
??>> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of
??>> an old condiment.

SC> I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
SC> good enough. ;-D

I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me.
"Catchup", I don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it
supposed to be derived from a Chinese condiment transcribed as
"catsiap". There are more ketchups than tomato: mushroom ketchup
is available in England but I can't say that I like it. By the
way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but it might be an
interesting survey to find the brands that people like. I have
to admit that my favorite is Heinz or possibly DelMonte which
tastes almost identical as, believe it or not, so do some
grocery chain house brands.. Hunt's isn't bad but doesn't taste
quite the same to me.

DelMonte does not taste like Heinz, though some store brands do.
Schnuck's is a perfect, or nearly perfect knock off.

Trout Fishing in America had a chapter titled, "Another Method of
Making Walnut Catsup."

Brautigan rocks.

Quoted message said:

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

--Bryan

Joseph Littleshoes said:

Max Hauser said:

Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
spellings.)  Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup asthey
please, and they do.

Some where i have  a walnut catsup recipe,

Discussing woids... *somewhere* is ALWAYS one word... and it's aye,
"i" is not a word.

And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
final authority in ketchupdom.

Sheldon Red

On Aug 25, 7:34 pm, Bobo Bonobo® <[email hidden]> wrote::10:52

Quoted message said:

DelMonte does not taste like Heinz

I'll attest to that - a major debate broke out one evening when our
club had a fish fry and someone stormed the kitchen and yelled,
"What? No Heinz?" The poor gal who thoughtlessly picked up DelMonte
couldn't believe her ears. After all, it's was an eight dollar fish
fry, guys....

I once tried making my own - but the trouble wasn't worth it. Taste
was not to my liking and I decided other kitchen frugalities were
available.

I have vowed, tho, never to fall again for that big bargain size
bottle of Heinz for a buck and a half at Big Lots - it'll take me a
year to use it up, it won't even fit on the fridge door, and my frugal
bone won't let me toss it. When it gets down to about half the
amount, I may make a transfer to a Mason jar.

Hmm.. maybe jars of homemade barbecue sauce as Xmas gifts?

val

Quoted message said:

Joseph Littleshoes said:

Max Hauser said:

Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
spellings.) Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
please, and they do.

Some where i have a walnut catsup recipe,

Discussing woids... *somewhere* is ALWAYS one word... and it's aye,
"i" is not a word.

And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
final authority in ketchupdom.

Sheldon Red

Foitha discussion of woids ...shouldn't that be "final authority in
ketchupdumb"? :-D

blAndy

Quoted message said:

Joseph Littleshoes said:

Max Hauser said:

Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
spellings.) acking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
please, and they do.

Some where i have ! walnut catsup recipe,

Discussing woids... *somewhere* is ALWAYS one word... and it's aye,
"i" is not a word.

And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
final authority in ketchupdom.

Sheldon Red

Quite right. Catsup is the generic name for the condiment, which can
be tomato based or not. Ketchup is the Heinz brand name for a
particular tomato based variant of catsup. Simple.

Catchup is a non-starter.

Andy said:

Sheldon said:

And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
final authority in ketchupdom.

shouldn't that be "final authority in ketchupdumb"? :-D

Huh... dumb... compared with your sorry cornholed ass Stan is Albert
Einstein.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cornhole

Sheldon

"val189" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
..

I have vowed, tho, never to fall again for that big bargain size
bottle of Heinz for a buck and a half at Big Lots - it'll take me a
year to use it up, it won't even fit on the fridge door, and my frugal
bone won't let me toss it. When it gets down to about half the
amount, I may make a transfer to a Mason jar.

Hmm.. maybe jars of homemade barbecue sauce as Xmas gifts?

val

At my house it's pointless to buy Heinz in any other size than the giant
one, and there's only one person in this house that eats ketchup and it's
not me.

Ms P

x-no-archive: yes

Steve Calvin <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
good enough. ;-D

Eye wood uhgree wif dat

--

Charles
The significant problems we face cannot be solved
at the same level of thinking we were at when we
created them. Albert Einstein

"James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:se0Ai.4950$oh1.3365@trnddc04:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me.

"Catchup", I don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it
supposed to be derived from a Chinese condiment transcribed
as "catsiap". There are more ketchups than tomato: mushroom
ketchup is available in England but I can't say that I like
it. By the way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but
it might be an interesting survey to find the brands that
people like.

i make my own catsup. i invariably end up using regular
tomatoes rather than paste varieties & it takes, oh, 20+ hours
to cook down to proper consistancy. i finally put a note on my
recipe to *use paste tomatoes!* 😉
the original American catsups were commonly Concord grape
based. tomato based catsups were unheard of until the late
1800s when it was discovered that tomatoes were not just
ornamental, but actually edible.
yellow tomatoes make a rather brownish color catsup, due to
the spices. red is more appetizing in appearance.

Quoted message said:

I have to admit that my favorite is Heinz or
possibly DelMonte which tastes almost identical as, believe
it or not, so do some grocery chain house brands.. Hunt's
isn't bad but doesn't taste quite the same to me.

i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
lee

In article <[email hidden]>,

enigma said:

i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
lee

I've been considering making my own Catsup using canned tomato paste to
avoid the sugar content of commercial brands.

There are lots of recipes on line. :-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

enigma said:

i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
lee

I've been considering making my own Catsup using canned tomato paste to
avoid the sugar content of commercial brands.

Why... you plan on drinking the stuff. Maybe you should consider what
you're plopping it on instead, tons of greasy fried [censored]. Tomatoes
naturally contain substantial sugar, but folks over indulge with
ketchup primarilly for the salt fix... you shouldn't be having any
ketchup... try switching to vinegar instead. Heinz produces a nice
selection of vinegars.

http://www.heinzvinegar.com

Sheldon

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon said:

Omelet omp said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

 enigma said:

i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
lee

I've been considering making my own Catsup using canned tomato paste to
avoid the sugar content of commercial brands.

Why... you plan on drinking the stuff. Maybe you should consider what
you're plopping it on instead, tons of greasy fried [censored]. Tomatoes
naturally contain substantial sugar, but folks over indulge with
ketchup primarilly for the salt fix... you shouldn't be having any
ketchup... try switching to vinegar instead. Heinz produces a nice
selection of vinegars.

http://www.heinzvinegar.com

Sheldon

I use Catsup in things like Deviled egg recipes and tuna salads.

I happen to really like tomatoes.
And they are high in anti-oxidants.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson