Cayenne and C-Reactive Protein link

I could not find references with oral ingestion of capsacian like extracts and vascular problems,
including elevation of hs.cRP levels.

A patient of mine long ago took cayenne pepper for arthritis. She lived to be 96. I miss her still.
She would always wink at me when she told me she takes it daily. Applied topically, this extract has
helped many of my patients who suffer from a neurogenic urticaria localized between the shoulder
blades on the back.

Would you consider keeping me updated about your progress on our sonoscore.comsonoscore.comOpen ↗ web site?

I might also comment that there is no standardization of high sensitivity c-reactive protein levels.
Each lab chooses their own standards and reference ranges, and have different ways of measuring the
levels. I would caution you to ensure your comparative values are from the same lab, and that the
lab has not changed its protocol for hs.cRP between tests.

ceniza said:

Has anyone heard if supplemental doses of Cayenne could be inflammatory?

About the only change I made between tests was adding Cayenne because I read it was good for the
heart. In that time I went from normal CRP to very high CRP.

I quit the cayenne...now we'll see soon.

--
Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P. Board Certified in Family Medicine
familydoctor.orgblanchardOpen ↗

SonoScore Winning against heart attack and stroke sonoscore.comsonoscore.comOpen ↗

"Patrick Blanchard MD" <blanchard@sonoscore_nospam.com> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I could not find references with oral ingestion of capsacian like extracts and vascular problems,
including elevation of hs.cRP levels.

A patient of mine long ago took cayenne pepper for arthritis. She lived to be 96. I miss her
still. She would always wink at me when she told me she takes it daily. Applied topically, this
extract has helped many of my patients who suffer from a neurogenic urticaria localized between
the shoulder blades on the back.

Would you consider keeping me updated about your progress on our sonoscore.comsonoscore.comOpen ↗
web site?

I might also comment that there is no standardization of high sensitivity c-reactive protein
levels. Each lab chooses their own standards and reference ranges, and have different ways of
measuring the levels. I would caution you to ensure your comparative values are from the same lab,
and that the lab has not changed its protocol for hs.cRP between tests.

On that note, I would suspect that the first CRP was the standard one and the latter (high) value
was the high sensitivity version (hsCRP).

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

Interesting site. I will use it.

Quoted message said:

Would you consider keeping me updated about your progress on our sonoscore.comsonoscore.comOpen ↗
web site?

I believe this is correct. Does high sensitive necessarily mean more accurate?

Quoted message said:

On that note, I would suspect that the first CRP was the standard one and the latter (high) value
was the high sensitivity version (hsCRP).

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

ceniza said:

I believe this is correct. Does high sensitive necessarily mean more
accurate?

Quoted message said:

On that note, I would suspect that the first CRP was the standard one
and the latter (high) value was the high sensitivity version (hsCRP).

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:18:10 -0500, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
(in message <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Yes, I believe Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD is correct here. Both of them reported a decrease: the
Tooth Fairy _and_ the Easter Bunny.

--

Steve

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:46:10 -0500, Thorsten Schier wrote
(in message <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

Or, if you really want to go for the gold, one that shows a decrease in hsCRP in people who are on
the 2PD :-) Or one that shows anything at all about the 2PD. Or one that even mentions the 2PD. Or
one that even _thinks_ about mentioning the 2PD.

--

Steve

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

No. Nonetheless, this remains my experience.

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http:/www.heartmdphd.com/

Steve said:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:46:10 -0500, Thorsten Schier wrote (in message
<[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

Or, if you really want to go for the gold, one that shows a decrease in hsCRP in people who are on
the 2PD :-) Or one that shows anything at all about the 2PD. Or one that even mentions the 2PD. Or
one that even _thinks_ about mentioning the 2PD.

Nonetheless, it remains my experience.

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http:/www.heartmdphd.com/

Sun, 04 Jan 2004 03:46:10 +0100 in article <[email hidden]>

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

There is at least one study where CRP _did not_ increase:

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. R An isoenergetic very low carbohydrate
diet improves serum HDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations, the total cholesterol to
HDL cholesterol ratio and postprandial pipemic responses compared with a low fat diet in normal
weight, normolipidemic women. J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61. PMID: 12949361 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE] <URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12949-
361&dopt=Abstract>

"... There were no significant changes in LDL size or markers of inflammation (C-reactive
protein, interleukin-6, tumor necrosis factor-alpha) after the very low carbohydrate diet. ..."

--
Matti Narkia

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

No. Nonetheless, this remains my experience.

How many people have you put on a low-carb diet or how many of your patients have started it against
your advice so that you have been able to compare the hsCRP value before and during low-carbing?

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 3:53:20 -0500, Matti Narkia wrote
(in message <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Sun, 04 Jan 2004 03:46:10 +0100 in article <[email hidden]> Thorsten Schier

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

There is at least one study where CRP _did not_ increase:

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. R An isoenergetic very low carbohydrate
diet improves serum HDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations, the total cholesterol to
HDL cholesterol ratio and postprandial pipemic responses compared with a low fat diet in normal
weight, normolipidemic women. J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61. PMID: 12949361 [PubMed - indexed
for MEDLINE]

<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMe d&lis

Quoted message said:

t_uids=12949361&dopt=Abstract>

"... There were no significant changes in LDL size or markers of inflammation (C-reactive
protein, interleukin-6, tumor necrosis factor-alpha) after the very low carbohydrate diet.
..."

--
Matti Narkia

Sorry Matti, that doesn't count because English is your fifth language.

See

heartmdphd.comfifthlanguage.aspOpen ↗

for a complete explanation of how that disqualifies you from being taken seriously. Too bad.

--

Steve

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 6:51:20 -0500, Thorsten Schier wrote
(in message <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).
>
> Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.
>

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

No. Nonetheless, this remains my experience.

How many people have you put on a low-carb diet or how many of your patients have started it
against your advice so that you have been able to compare the hsCRP value before and during low-
carbing?

Careful, Thorsten, you are treading on very thin ice here :-) Are you prepared for charges of being
an "obsessive anti-christian"? Of Chung

you? Of the mind-numbing "Truth Mantra Attack"? Of (shudder) heartmdphdlibel.aspOpen ↗ Of
consignment to the "Peanut Gallery"? Of thinly veiled death threats?

Picture a very angry Chung.

--

Steve

Steve said:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:18:10 -0500, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote (in message
<[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Yes, I believe Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD is correct here. Both of them reported a decrease: the
Tooth Fairy _and_ the Easter Bunny.

Not the Easter Bunny. He ate 2 LB of junk food a day, and got HUGE. He was the fattest bunny around,
so fat he could hardly walk.

That's what happens when your dogma insists that 2 LB is exactly right for everyone. <gg>

The non-Easter Bunny was not a Christian, though, and Chung refused to help him. The non-Easter
Bunny than proceeded to eat 3 LB of carrots and other nutritious vegetables a day, and lived happily
ever after. He even managed to beat the tortoise in a race. <g>

There are other diets that work better than the 2PD. <gg> Matt

MD/PhD said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

No. Nonetheless, this remains my experience.

We have seen, time and again, that your "experience" is just a delusion of your mind. A belief with
no basis in fact. Your "experience" is just not credible.

If you can't cite any reference to back up the CRP question, your credibility will go down once
again. Matt

MD/PhD said:

Steve said:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:46:10 -0500, Thorsten Schier wrote (in message
<[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).
>
> Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.
>

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

Or, if you really want to go for the gold, one that shows a decrease in hsCRP in people who are
on the 2PD :-) Or one that shows anything at all about the 2PD. Or one that even mentions the
2PD. Or one that even _thinks_ about mentioning the 2PD.

Nonetheless, it remains my experience.

We have seen, time and again, that your "experience" is just a delusion of your mind. A belief with
no basis in fact. Your "experience" is just not credible.

If you can't cite any reference to back up the CRP question, your credibility will go down once
again. Matt

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Matti Narkia said:

Sun, 04 Jan 2004 03:46:10 +0100 in article <[email hidden]> Thorsten Schier

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).

Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

There is at least one study where CRP _did not_ increase:

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. R An isoenergetic very low carbohydrate
diet improves serum HDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations, the total cholesterol to
HDL cholesterol ratio and postprandial pipemic responses compared with a low fat diet in normal
weight, normolipidemic women. J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61. PMID: 12949361 [PubMed - indexed
for MEDLINE] <URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=-
12949361&dopt=Abstract>

"... There were no significant changes in LDL size or markers of inflammation (C-reactive
protein, interleukin-6, tumor necrosis factor-alpha) after the very low carbohydrate diet.
..."

--
Matti Narkia

Was not hsCRP, Matti. There *is* a difference.

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Matti Narkia wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Sun, 04 Jan 2004 03:46:10 +0100 in article <[email hidden]>
<br>Thorsten Schier <[email hidden]> wrote:
<br>>
<br>>"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
<br>>>
<br>>> For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate
(has the
<br>>> needed sensitivity).
<br>>>
<br>>> Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.
<br>>>
<br>>
<br>>Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who
are
<br>>lowcarbing?
<br>>
<br>There is at least one study where CRP _did not_ increase:
<p>Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. R
<br>An isoenergetic very low carbohydrate diet improves serum HDL cholesterol
<br>and triacylglycerol concentrations, the total cholesterol to HDL
<br>cholesterol ratio and postprandial pipemic responses compared with
a low
<br>fat diet in normal weight, normolipidemic women.
<br>J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61.
<br>PMID: 12949361 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<br><URL:<a href="ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗">ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗</a>>
<p> "... There were no significant changes in LDL size
or markers of
<br> inflammation (C-reactive protein, interleukin-6,
tumor necrosis
<br> factor-alpha) after the very low carbohydrate diet.
..."
<p>--
<br>Matti Narkia</blockquote>
Was not hsCRP, Matti. There *is* a difference.
<p>Humbly,
<p>Andrew
<p>--
<br>Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
<br>Board-Certified Cardiologist
<br><A HREF="heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗">heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗</A>
<br> </html>

--------------4B926F2AE794FE7C7C49970D--

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> For the usually lower "normal range," hsCRP is more accurate (has the needed sensitivity).
>
> Ime, low-carbers see an increase in hsCRP while 2PDers see a decrease.
>

Can you cite any study that shows an increase in hsCRP in people who are lowcarbing?

No. Nonetheless, this remains my experience.

How many people have you put on a low-carb diet or how many of your patients have started it
against your advice so that you have been able to compare the hsCRP value before and during low-
carbing?

About 75% of my new obese cardiac patients come to me while low-carbing.

I am successfully getting about 90% of these to change to the 2PD approach. There is some
nervousness when these folks see an "immediate" 5-10 lbs gain in the first week from repletion of
there glycogen stores but they seem to take this better when then are told that this gain is not
from fat. The 10% that choose to initially stay with the LC approach are typically those in the
induction phase where the "plateau" has not occurred. Eventually, even the 10% will become willing
to change to the 2PD approach because of the "plateau" and the concerns about the persistent
elevation of hsCRP despite significant weight loss.

Quoted message said:

Thorsten

Thank you for your interest.

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗