Ceramic bearings, worth the cost?

On 20 May 2006 11:33:39 -0700, "Chris M" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I don't expect to gain any perceptible reduction in rolling resistance
but based on my limited experience with ceramic bearings it would be
nice to know that with them installed it would be unlikely I would ever
need to tear down the hub again.

In my experience, the cone is the first part to crater, not the balls.
You're only replacing one part of the bearing system; the cones and
cups will still be subject to wear, and the grease will still
deteriorate, so hub teardown and service frequency should remain
unchanged.

Quoted message said:

I think I would be able to use a much
lighter lube and that I would be able to assemble the hub with much
less "play" in the axle.

With the QR correctly latched, there should be no play anyway. I
believe it would be a mistake to load the ceramic balls more than the
steel ones since only one part of the assembly is changing. As for
the lube, once again, remember what's not different as well as what
will be.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Chris M said:

I am waiting for a few small parts inside my Campy Eurus rear hub after
tearing it down completely and inspecting each subcomponent. The
bearing races part # HB-RE022. The rest of the parts are like new.
However, seeing that it uses simple ball bearings in 5/32" means that
changing the bearings would be very cheap and replacing them with
better quality (higher tolerances for deviating from roundness, the
standard OEM bearings are 25s.

That is a high-quality bearing. Most cheap bikes are assembled with grade
100 or worse. The lower the number, the better.

Quoted message said:

could pick up for as little as $50 (only small in comparison to kits
sold to replace bearings in some ZIPP wheels and a few other similar
wheel sets).

"As little as $50"?

Quoted message said:

I don't expect to gain any perceptible reduction in rolling resistance
but based on my limited experience with ceramic bearings it would be
nice to know that with them installed it would be unlikely I would ever
need to tear down the hub again.

Not true.

I think I would be able to use a much

Quoted message said:

lighter lube and that I would be able to assemble the hub with much less
"play" in the axle.

Play? There should be no play in the axle, once the QR is clamped down.
That means there should be some with the QR open -- ceramic or steel
balls.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |

Chris M wrote

-Snip-

Quoted message said:

I have seen some ceramic bearings that I could pick up for as little as $50

-snip-

With the so called "Campy grade" (gr 25) ferris bearing being on the
relatively flat, top part of the cost vs. gain curve, I really can't
see enough gain to be worth ~$45. I read a research article about
ceramic bearing use in a bicycle hub, which put the advantage in
rolling resistance at something like 0.03% or 0.3%. (IIRC) Whatever it
was it seemed to me unrealistically good. And don't forget that the RR
of the hub bearings are only a tiny part of all the frictional losses
of a bike, the greatest being air resistance. I'd put the $45 toward
something that would give more bang for the buck (such as tires), or a
useful bike tool, or a good dinner out.

Most good bike shops should have gr. 25 bearings. BikeToolsEtc. have
gr. 25 bearing readily available. The cost is < $5/ 100. I buy & use
the SS due to the small cost difference & small difference in yield. I
have no idea if they are actually worth the $0.017 per bearing
difference in cost, but it doesn't matter.

http://www.biketoolsetc.com
Price: $4.80 
Item #US-SS532: .Grade 25, 440-C stainless steel balls are through
hardened. Diameter tolerance =/- .0001". Sphericity .0000025". Yield
strength 275,000 PSI. Virtually identical specs to chromium, but with
superior corrosion resistance. Ideal for mountain bikes, beach
cruisers, and those who just want the best!

Price: $3.10 
Item #US-CH532: .Grade 25 chromium steel balls are through hardened.
Diameter tolerance +/- .0001", Sphericity .0000025", yield strength
295,000 PSI. The standard in most bike shops; suitable for your nicest
rides.

Here in No. Cal, BTE's shipments usually arrive the next day, (that's
UPS' cheapest way) if I order early. If you live east of the Rockies,
You might do better to look elsewhere, John

Chris M said:

I am waiting for a few small parts inside my Campy Eurus rear hub after
tearing it down completely and inspecting each subcomponent. The
bearing races part # HB-RE022. The rest of the parts are like new.
However, seeing that it uses simple ball bearings in 5/32" means that
changing the bearings would be very cheap and replacing them with
better quality (higher tolerances for deviating from roundness, the
standard OEM bearings are 25s. I have seen some ceramic bearings that I
could pick up for as little as $50 (only small in comparison to kits
sold to replace bearings in some ZIPP wheels and a few other similar
wheel sets).

I don't expect to gain any perceptible reduction in rolling resistance
but based on my limited experience with ceramic bearings it would be
nice to know that with them installed it would be unlikely I would ever
need to tear down the hub again. I think I would be able to use a much
lighter lube and that I would be able to assemble the hub with much
less "play" in the axle. If I am making the wrong assumptions I would
welcome other views especially from someone with experience with
ceramic bearings in cycling hubs and obviously any recent Campy rear
hub would be ideal. I was surprised to find how many sub-components are
shared among the hubs of all but a few models. The difference among the
hubs is very little when there is any, and it is typically 1 or 2 large
parts made out of lighter material in the upper end of the range when
contrasted with the lower priced models. The Carbon Fiber hubs (as an
example) are identical to the other models claimed as "Record Class" in
every way except for the shell material. I have not looked at the 2006
hubs yet but I think there is no difference between the Eurus and the
Zonda hubs. Swapping the new aero bladed aluminum spokes for steel
spokes as used in previous top models (and still used in the Boras) and
maybe a little bit less machining on the rims is the only thing to
separate those 2 new models.

Back to my question, are there any web resources or can anyone offer
advice in terms of where to buy these bearings for the best prices (in
quantity of 50 preferably) and if I can expect any of the benefits I
have cited?

TIA

Email reply is fine if preferred

Except for their snob appeal, ceramic bearings offer nothing more than
standard steel ones.
HTH
EJ in NJ

One benifit that no one has mentioned. For us weight weenies, ceramic
bearings are lighter! I don't think it would be more than 10 grams for the
rear wheel.

cel

"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am waiting for a few small parts inside my Campy Eurus rear hub after
tearing it down completely and inspecting each subcomponent. The
bearing races part # HB-RE022. The rest of the parts are like new.
However, seeing that it uses simple ball bearings in 5/32" means that
changing the bearings would be very cheap and replacing them with
better quality (higher tolerances for deviating from roundness, the
standard OEM bearings are 25s. I have seen some ceramic bearings that I
could pick up for as little as $50 (only small in comparison to kits
sold to replace bearings in some ZIPP wheels and a few other similar
wheel sets).

I don't expect to gain any perceptible reduction in rolling resistance
but based on my limited experience with ceramic bearings it would be
nice to know that with them installed it would be unlikely I would ever
need to tear down the hub again. I think I would be able to use a much
lighter lube and that I would be able to assemble the hub with much
less "play" in the axle. If I am making the wrong assumptions I would
welcome other views especially from someone with experience with
ceramic bearings in cycling hubs and obviously any recent Campy rear
hub would be ideal. I was surprised to find how many sub-components are
shared among the hubs of all but a few models. The difference among the
hubs is very little when there is any, and it is typically 1 or 2 large
parts made out of lighter material in the upper end of the range when
contrasted with the lower priced models. The Carbon Fiber hubs (as an
example) are identical to the other models claimed as "Record Class" in
every way except for the shell material. I have not looked at the 2006
hubs yet but I think there is no difference between the Eurus and the
Zonda hubs. Swapping the new aero bladed aluminum spokes for steel
spokes as used in previous top models (and still used in the Boras) and
maybe a little bit less machining on the rims is the only thing to
separate those 2 new models.

Back to my question, are there any web resources or can anyone offer
advice in terms of where to buy these bearings for the best prices (in
quantity of 50 preferably) and if I can expect any of the benefits I
have cited?

TIA

Email reply is fine if preferred

Chris M said:

I am waiting for a few small parts inside my Campy Eurus rear hub after
tearing it down completely and inspecting each subcomponent. The
bearing races part # HB-RE022. The rest of the parts are like new.
However, seeing that it uses simple ball bearings in 5/32" means that
changing the bearings would be very cheap and replacing them with
better quality (higher tolerances for deviating from roundness, the
standard OEM bearings are 25s. I have seen some ceramic bearings that I
could pick up for as little as $50 (only small in comparison to kits
sold to replace bearings in some ZIPP wheels and a few other similar
wheel sets).

Ceramic balls are hard, harder than the cup and cones...Use high
quality grade 25 BB and lube and adjust well. Grade 25 are very high
tolerence, BTW-

Also surprised the shop you use didn't have the parts...a decent shop
that Qui si parla Campagnolo should.

Quoted message said:

I don't expect to gain any perceptible reduction in rolling resistance
but based on my limited experience with ceramic bearings it would be
nice to know that with them installed it would be unlikely I would ever
need to tear down the hub again.

The hub will still get dirty and if dirty enough, will kill cones and
cups. Don't waste yer $, OVH hubs regularly, use good grease, new balls
and adjust well.

I think I would be able to use a much

Quoted message said:

lighter lube and that I would be able to assemble the hub with much
less "play" in the axle. If I am making the wrong assumptions I would
welcome other views especially from someone with experience with
ceramic bearings in cycling hubs and obviously any recent Campy rear
hub would be ideal. I was surprised to find how many sub-components are
shared among the hubs of all but a few models. The difference among the
hubs is very little when there is any, and it is typically 1 or 2 large
parts made out of lighter material in the upper end of the range when
contrasted with the lower priced models. The Carbon Fiber hubs (as an
example) are identical to the other models claimed as "Record Class" in
every way except for the shell material. I have not looked at the 2006
hubs yet but I think there is no difference between the Eurus and the
Zonda hubs. Swapping the new aero bladed aluminum spokes for steel
spokes as used in previous top models (and still used in the Boras) and
maybe a little bit less machining on the rims is the only thing to
separate those 2 new models.

Back to my question, are there any web resources or can anyone offer
advice in terms of where to buy these bearings for the best prices (in
quantity of 50 preferably) and if I can expect any of the benefits I
have cited?

TIA

Email reply is fine if preferred

cel said:

One benifit that no one has mentioned. For us weight weenies, ceramic
bearings are lighter! I don't think it would be more than 10 grams for the
rear wheel.

cel

Trim your nose hair instead.

cel said:

One benifit that no one has mentioned. For us weight weenies, ceramic
bearings are lighter! I don't think it would be more than 10 grams
for the rear wheel.

This was discussed recently on Weight Weenies.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14141&highlight=ceramic

The difference is about 2 full grams per wheelset.
--
Phil

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

cel said:

One benifit that no one has mentioned. For us weight weenies, ceramic
bearings are lighter! I don't think it would be more than 10 grams
for the rear wheel.

cel

Trim your nose hair instead.

That's an interesting idea.

To train for a big event one should then let one's nosehair grow, along
with other examples, and then shave it all on the morning of race day? 🙂

You could even trim your shoelaces back, or remove alternating 1/4" bands
from any velcro closures.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

The hub will still get dirty and if dirty enough, will kill cones and
cups. Don't waste yer $, OVH hubs regularly, use good grease, new balls
and adjust well.

This discussion makes me want to overhaul my hubs toot sweet! Can anyone
tell me the ball sizes required for recent Shimano Ultegra front & rear
hubs?

Thanks,
BC

"Defendit numerus."

On Sun, 21 May 2006 16:28:31 -0400, BCDrums <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This discussion makes me want to overhaul my hubs toot sweet! Can anyone
tell me the ball sizes required for recent Shimano Ultegra front & rear
hubs?

Across all generations of Ultegra model hubs, the ball complement
remains unchanged. There are ten 3/16" balls in each front cup; the
rear cups each contain nine 1/4" balls.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
305-273-4440
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

John Dacey said:

"Defendit numerus."

On Sun, 21 May 2006 16:28:31 -0400, BCDrums <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This discussion makes me want to overhaul my hubs toot sweet! Can anyone
tell me the ball sizes required for recent Shimano Ultegra front & rear
hubs?

Across all generations of Ultegra model hubs, the ball complement
remains unchanged. There are ten 3/16" balls in each front cup; the
rear cups each contain nine 1/4" balls.

Thanks, John!

"Semper ubi sub ubi."

BC

BCDrums said:

John Dacey said:

"Defendit numerus."

On Sun, 21 May 2006 16:28:31 -0400, BCDrums <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This discussion makes me want to overhaul my hubs toot sweet! Can
anyone tell me the ball sizes required for recent Shimano Ultegra
front & rear hubs?

Across all generations of Ultegra model hubs, the ball complement
remains unchanged. There are ten 3/16" balls in each front cup; the
rear cups each contain nine 1/4" balls.

Thanks, John!

"Semper ubi sub ubi."

What if you're swimming?

--
Phil

Quoted message said:

Back to my question, are there any web resources or can anyone offer
advice in terms of where to buy these bearings for the best prices (in
quantity of 50 preferably) and if I can expect any of the benefits I
have cited?

TIA

Email reply is fine if preferred

1. GOOD Ceramic bearings are superior
2. GOOD Ceramic bearings cost prohibitively expensive.
3. Ceramic bearings are supposed to be better at high RPM's, so they
are better suited for Roller-skates than bike parts.

Tyler hamilton is supposed to have paid in excess of 2.000$ for ceramic
bearings on his TT bike....

The bearings you see are hybrids, coated steel bearings: just not worth
it.

Quality bearings can be had from (no personal experience, just riped a
link from Weight Weenies). But be prepared to break your piggy bank

http://www.ceramicspeed.com/

Tuschinski said:

1. GOOD Ceramic bearings are superior

Yes... but how much? And do we care? Bearing losses in decent bike hubs
are already vanishingly small compared compared to everything else, so
there isn't anything to be gained. If you think that 0.1W is a lot then
maybe... but I hope you are using light oil and not grease in your hubs
too...

For the cyclist who just wants to buy something...

Ron Ruff said:

Tuschinski said:

1. GOOD Ceramic bearings are superior

Yes... but how much? And do we care? Bearing losses in decent bike hubs
are already vanishingly small compared compared to everything else, so
there isn't anything to be gained. If you think that 0.1W is a lot then
maybe... but I hope you are using light oil and not grease in your hubs
too...

For the cyclist who just wants to buy something...

Fully agreed🙂 I don't remotely consider getting them and I do race
competitively.

On Sun, 21 May 2006 22:44:46 -0400, BCDrums <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Dacey said:

"Defendit numerus."

On Sun, 21 May 2006 16:28:31 -0400, BCDrums <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This discussion makes me want to overhaul my hubs toot sweet! Can anyone
tell me the ball sizes required for recent Shimano Ultegra front & rear
hubs?

Across all generations of Ultegra model hubs, the ball complement
remains unchanged. There are ten 3/16" balls in each front cup; the
rear cups each contain nine 1/4" balls.

Thanks, John!

"Semper ubi sub ubi."

Not with bike shorts.

Numquam dicat "semper".

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I am waiting for a few small parts inside my Campy Eurus rear hub after
tearing it down completely and inspecting each subcomponent. The
bearing races part # HB-RE022. The rest of the parts are like new.
However, seeing that it uses simple ball bearings in 5/32" means that
changing the bearings would be very cheap and replacing them with
better quality (higher tolerances for deviating from roundness, the
standard OEM bearings are 25s. I have seen some ceramic bearings that I
could pick up for as little as $50 (only small in comparison to kits
sold to replace bearings in some ZIPP wheels and a few other similar
wheel sets).

A little humor, see...
http://sheldonbrown.com/lirpa.html

Rich

Quoted message said: