Chinese "craftsmanship"

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
weld better than these guys!

There are [censored] and top end products from every country. Some British
cars are absolute lemons too. How shocking!
--

Artoi said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
weld better than these guys!

There are [censored] and top end products from every country. Some British
cars are absolute lemons too. How shocking!
--

Last British car I had, a Bentley, seemed pretty good.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

Artoi said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
weld better than these guys!

There are [censored] and top end products from every country. Some British
cars are absolute lemons too. How shocking!

All the parts falling off my MG are of the finest British quality.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
are sucking the planet's money supply.

Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
Mashuro ?
Yahnaha welders ?

On Apr 16, 3:06 am, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Artoi said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
 Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
weld better than these guys!

Quoted message said:

There are [censored] and top end products from every country. Some British
cars are absolute lemons too. How shocking!

All the parts falling off my MG are of the finest British quality.

I think, if you inspect those inadequate parts carefully, you will
find them sticky-labelled "Lucas Prince of Darkness". Take off the
sticky label and you will discover the real provenance in the legend
stamped underneath: "Magneto Minelli Spaghetti Marinelli".

Quoted message said:

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Andre Jute
Long time since I grew too smart to drive British sports cars

datakoll said:

chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
are sucking the planet's money supply.

Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
Mashuro ?
Yahnaha welders ?

Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

"Woland99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

datakoll said:

chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
are sucking the planet's money supply.

Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
Mashuro ?
Yahnaha welders ?

Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

4000 years of tradition based on Cheaper Is Better!

Chas.

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Artoi said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weld better than these guys!

There are [censored] and top end products from every country. Some British
cars are absolute lemons too. How shocking!

All the parts falling off my MG are of the finest British quality.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Then there is "The Prince of Darkness" ....

http://www.hermit.cc/mania/tmc/articles/lucas.htm

Chas.

Andre Jute said:

Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
weld better than these guys!

Andre Jutehttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20HUMOUR.html

Chinese factories can produce cheap [censored], or top notch stuff. It all
depends on what the buyer wants. Since buyers of high quality stuff
usually aren't so focused on cost because their customers aren't
either, there is less of a reason for them to have these things made
inexpensively in China, so China ends up mostly producing cheap (often
crappy) stuff. In other words, the price difference between high
quality form China vs high quality for elsewhere isn't as great as the
price difference between cheap stuff from China vs cheap stuff from
elsewhere. Thus a preponderance of cheap stuff.

Joseph

Woland99 said:

datakoll said:

chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
are sucking the planet's money supply.

Quoted message said:

Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
Mashuro ?
Yahnaha welders ?

Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.

Quoted message said:

Woland99 said:

datakoll said:

chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
are sucking the planet's money supply.
Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
Mashuro ?
Yahnaha welders ?

Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.

I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
Very light and good quality.

Davo said:

Quoted message said:

Woland99 said:

On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> Mashuro ?
> Yahnaha welders ?
Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

Quoted message said:

I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.

I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
just the tip of a very large iceberg

I-80 is the best route to the west coast

"datakoll" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I-80 is the best route to the west coast

What about Route 66?

"The West is the best.... get hip and we'll do the rest...."

Chas.

Andre Jute said:

Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
weld better than these guys!

Welcome to the world of price-point engineering. If you're paying for a bottle
and getting a cage included you're at the lowest price point.

In general, the Chinese can build as good a product as you are willing to pay
for - just like anybody else on the planet with modern manufacturing capability.
What distinguishes them is that they are better able to build at the lowest
price point than others.

Of course you can weld better than that. It would also cost about 40 times as
much. Not viable in the "free bottle cage with every bottle" side of the market.
Buy cheap, get cheap.

Battery holders are a bit of a pain. I've resorted to a clunky, ugly plastic
bottle cage with a strap around the "bottle" and down tube. It works.

Woland99 said:

datakoll said:

chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
are sucking the planet's money supply.

Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
Mashuro ?
Yahnaha welders ?

Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.

If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly. Oh, you gotta pay for
that and horrors of horrors good stuff costs more. Doesn't matter what country
is building it or what color the workers are.

There are costs and problems involved in sourcing from China that recommend them
mostly as a source for really cheap stuff made better than you'd expect at that
price point, but not so good at higher price points or high quality goods.

One of the problems is an entire generation of executives, managers and foremen
who have been taught their entire lives that people who run businesses for
profit are greedy, unethical, thieving, lying scum who kill workers and poison
their customers for a buck. Makes the management pool either scarce or scary.
Examples of both have been apparent in recent years.

QC is vital. Again, that encourages mass market, low price-point goods.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Davo said:

Quoted message said:

Woland99 said:

On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> Mashuro ?
> Yahnaha welders ?
Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

Quoted message said:

I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.

I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
just the tip of a very large iceberg"

Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
government may pay lip service to major international software and
entertainment companies but the beat goes on.

Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
term for what makes things work in China.

Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
China and for export.

Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
night US TV for the same amount.

Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
with those technologies? Let's see....

Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
about it!

http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp

Chas.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com said:

Woland99 said:

datakoll said:

chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
are sucking the planet's money supply.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
Mashuro ?
Yahnaha welders ?

Quoted message said:

Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.

If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly.

I've heard of that being a problem with Chinese stuff in particular in
several different contexts. You can spec what you want but if your
spec is anything other than "looks kinda like this and make it as
cheap as possible" you pretty much have to send your own QC people
over to make sure nothing happens (proper checks not being done,
substandard materials substituted without notice, etc.)

They are good at pumping stuff out inexpensively, for sure.

nate

* * Chas said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Davo said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>> Mashuro ?
>> Yahnaha welders ?
> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.

Quoted message said:

I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

"chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
just the tip of a very large iceberg"

Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
government may pay lip service to major international software and
entertainment companies but the beat goes on.

Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
term for what makes things work in China.

Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
China and for export.

Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
night US TV for the same amount.

Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
with those technologies? Let's see....

Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
about it!

http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp

Chas.

Yeah, but they were nice clubs, right? ;-)

Joseph