Climbing with Zipp 404's

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by peterwright
I currently ride with Campy Neutrons but am thinking of trying a set of the 404's which sem to be about 300g lighter. Are these a good climbing wheel with such deep rim ? Will I likely notice an improvement in acceleration from these rims. Is this a good upgrade ?

You won't notice a difference in acceleration, thats for sure.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by andrewbradley
You won't notice a difference in acceleration, thats for sure.

What then ...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by peterwright
What then ...

My understanding is that the 404's are an aero wheel and not so much concerned with weight as they are their wind slicing characteristics...

In time trialing, being solo and on the flat, wind resistance becomes a more significant factor than weight, as such wheels like Topolino's or Ksyrium SSC SL's would be better for climbing wheels and lighter still than the 404's you were mentioning... (though the 404's are light for an aero wheel)

When they use carbon in such a wheel design, the tendency is also for the wheel to ride fairly stiff and that can be uncomfortable... Though if you were climbing the speeds being lower might make that point moot.

One thing about shedding weight on wheels, you do feel it in the acceleration more so than shedding weight on other parts of the bike, because the weight is on the diameter of the wheel, small gains and losses significantly effect angular momentum...

Think of attaching a 6oz weight on the end of a string and spinning it over your head... then take a 7oz weight, then an 8 etc, small differences in weight make large differences in the energy and time required to spin the the assembly faster.

Shedding weight on the wheels is always a good thing, unless you're thinking aero, which you shouldn't if you're a climber 🙂

Have a good one...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by peterwright
What then ...

I don't know the wheels in question, but the suggestion that properly built wheels feel different in any way is one of the big no-nos with the experts, like the idea that different frame materials affect comfort.

For confirmation of this, try posting to rec.bicycles.tech (wear a helmet - although don't post about helmets!)
Searching the archives you'll find loads of stuff.

Aerodynamic benefits may be worthwhile to the racer but the "rolling weight" acceleration factor turns out to be negligible unless you count winning sprints by a millimeter. You can crunch the numbers at analyticcycling.com i believe.

I would love to do a blind test of various wheels. I'd bet that most riders can't tell the difference, period. Same for seatpost materials and probably the middle 80% of frame qualities (assuming equally decent fit). Call me a retro grouch!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
I would love to do a blind test of various wheels. I'd bet that most riders can't tell the difference, period. Same for seatpost materials and probably the middle 80% of frame qualities (assuming equally decent fit). Call me a retro grouch!

I'd never call anyone a retro grouch! *laughing*

I think many of the smaller changes one could accomplish on their bikes are driven by what "pro's" do or have said. That probably precludes 99.5% of we cyclists who are not in that elite category...

But one thing I'd like to mention, and it really is only notable if you're thinking of competition of some type, and that is alot of people say "You won't notice any difference" or "That small change is insignificant" when it comes to trimming weight and other "enhancements"... But all of these statements seem geared what you feel when you hop on and ride around a bit...

...but what about after 15 miles of a 4% ascent? Most changes in cycling seem only relevant in the arena of cumulative changes over time and distance, rather than the instantaneous replies like "50 grams will NEVER matter!" that you hear all the time.

A person could do 10 pushups with a six pack of beer on their back and think so what? But after the 75th pushup its like "Get that frickin thing off!" That's an extreme example but over such long distances that cyclists go if every turn of the crankarm you could somehow gain even an extra millimeter, you're talking about 100's of meters at the end of a 5 hour race...

I like opting for the "high-end" in cycling gear not because I'm any kind of pro-racer, but because as lame as I am, I need all the help I can possibly get!!!! *laughing*

Have a good one...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
I would love to do a blind test of various wheels. I'd bet that most riders can't tell the difference, period. Same for seatpost materials and probably the middle 80% of frame qualities (assuming equally decent fit). Call me a retro grouch!

I would take that bet with you 🙂 and bet exactly the same way you did...

Unless of course you took two riders and two bikes that were absolutely identical except for the wheels (one set was 200 grams lighter than the other) and then raced over a mountain stage 120 miles long... 🙂

I think its less about what your mind can "discern" and what your body feels over time...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by peterwright
I currently ride with Campy Neutrons but am thinking of trying a set of the 404's which sem to be about 300g lighter. Are these a good climbing wheel with such deep rim ? Will I likely notice an improvement in acceleration from these rims. Is this a good upgrade ?

I have a set of 404's with Tufo Elite Jet 20mm tires. I don't race but I like to dally with state of the art technology. I believe their aerodynamic benefit outweighs the weight benefit over DA/Open Pro's I can compare with. The measurable reduction in drag has been quoted as .3 to .4 pound vs 7-8 pounds for the bike and rider (obviously a lot of variables). This reduced drag could translate into 5-10% of my sorry power output. My last ride this weekend had a 12 mile grade, gaining 3,000 ft, before the snow stopped me. Very windy, several times I had a 15mph +/- headwind. I think I can tell a difference in these conditions. That the 404's weigh 400+ gms less, and the others have heavier rims and tires mostly to account for it makes me think I'm struggling less. Measureable? Could be, but since I'm not a racer, it matters little. Since I ride my bike to feel good, any perception of struggling less is good.