clipless vs toestraps vs platforms for a nervous cyclist?

Velvet said:

However, I can see the lack of flex in the M037's would make life easier, and the thicker soles
should prevent me feeling the cleat bits on the pedals ;-) BUT, they won't go in (and out!!!!) of
the toeclips, so that's a bit of a non-starter. I'm not sure I'm anywhere near confident to try
out spd's yet

But SPuDs and similar are actually *easier* to get in and out of than toeclips, so if you can manage
toeclips you can manage clipless pedals.

And if you do blow it (most of us have managed once or twice!) then pretty much by definition you'll
only keel over at 0 mph when it's entirely likely the only thing to get hurt will be your pride.

So I'd get some clipless pedals if I were you. It really doesn't take long to get the hang of them,
with a week or so's total paranoia seeming to suffice for most people. It's quite easy to pedal
without formally attaching if you're in traffic and worried about escaping, and unlike the similar
operation with clips and straps you don't end up dragging anything along the ground.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

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>> "Velvet" == Velvet <[email hidden]> writes:

Velvet> Should I forget both of them, ride with standard platforms for a while till I have more
Velvet> confidence, or persevere with the toestraps and existing trainers (apart from feeling the
Velvet> pedal through them, they're comfy, though do lead to nervousness when stopping), or do I go
Velvet> try spd's and risk being utterly put off by clipping in/out?

My advice is to go for spds - once you get used to them you'll wonder how you ever managed without.
Start out with them set pretty loose so it's very easy clip out.

I think toe straps are actually harder to get out of than spds - if you have them tight enough to do
any good - although it's very many years since I used them...

--
Yow! Those people look exactly like Donnie and Marie Osmond!!

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As a less than confident cyclist (in fact I hesitate to call myself a cyclist) I've been using
toestraps with some odd shimano cleat pedal on

the

Quoted message said:

outings I've attempted. I've learnt a bit about the toestraps, nearly

come

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a cropper once already with them, but because I'd been using a pair of well-past it trainers with
them, lately, decided to invest in a pair of proper cycling shoes. Went for some that would let me
walk on slippery surfaces too, so they're the Shimano M037's - more of a touring/offroad

type

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shoe, with a tread. However, I've found they're nigh on impossible to get into the toestraps (it's
actually the pedal/sole interface that's causing the probs) and definately not feasible to use
with them on safety grounds.

Now, I've come to the point of wondering what to do. Obviously the

trainers

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aren't ideal - and are just about falling apart, the sole is smooth

they're

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that worn down, which is what makes them easy to get in/out of the toestraps - but the sole being
thin, means I can feel the pedal through them, which is really meant for a cleat, so not *that*
comfy for any sort

of

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distances. I'm still getting used to the whole toeclip thing. I ride

with

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them very loose - so they stop forward movement, there's sideways movement available, and it's
easy to get your foot out (I guess there's at least

1cm

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of clearance all round between shoe and strap, so they're not exactly touching most of the time!).
I'm happy with them like that - can't see me ever bending down to tighten/loosen them, so they'll
stay loose, ta very much :-)

However, I can see the lack of flex in the M037's would make life easier, and the thicker soles
should prevent me feeling the cleat bits on the

pedals

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;-) BUT, they won't go in (and out!!!!) of the toeclips, so that's a bit

of

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a non-starter. I'm not sure I'm anywhere near confident to try out spd's yet - stopping is still
an ungainly affair at the best of times; though that's improving, unless I have plenty of time to
sort out coordination of braking, foot release, balance, and eventual stopping, it all goes

horribly

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wrong and I've ended up with a panicked yank out of the other foot as the bike and me decided to
stop leaning to the right instead of the left!

So, any suggestions. I find I start off with one foot in the toeclip, the other one uses the other
pedal upside down till I've got enough speed/confidence to be able to flip it over and get the
foot in -

sometimes

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it takes a couple of goes, other times it's pretty much straight in. I'm finding it's making me
wary of cycling up moderate/steepish hills to, because I'm not confident I could stop and get
everything coordinated to avoid falling over, given I'm likely to be verging on wobbling off

sideways

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due to lack of speed by that time anyway, so the whole thing's getting a

bit

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self-defeating at the moment.

Should I forget both of them, ride with standard platforms for a while

till

Quoted message said:

I have more confidence, or persevere with the toestraps and existing trainers (apart from feeling
the pedal through them, they're comfy, though do lead to nervousness when stopping), or do I go
try spd's and risk being utterly put off by clipping in/out?

The M037s have bolt-on sole plates, so I can revert to not using them for spds, though as I said,
they're not feasible for use with toestraps IMO.

I

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don't have platform pedals for the bike at the moment, so that'd be an

extra

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to go get, and I'm aware there are combined platforms and spds, but not

sure

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that's a very cost-effective way to do it.

Ta,

Velvet

I am about to consider going SPD with the same shoes and Shimano pedal that has cleats both sides
AND a cage so that you can wear ordinary shoes - . however, up until now I have been using ordinary
pedals with what I can only describe as "short toeclips" - they take the toe of the shoe and hold
it firmly but do not have straps - they work fine with a pair of reasonable quality trainers that
have some tread for walking up those hills! - on the basis that they are only about 4 quid a pair
at Mr Halfords it may be worth a try - you will certainly have no problem using your Shimano shoes
with them.

RG

Velvet said:

As a less than confident cyclist (in fact I hesitate to call myself a cyclist) I've been using
toestraps with some odd shimano cleat pedal on the outings I've attempted. I've learnt a bit about
the toestraps, nearly come a cropper once already with them, but because I'd been using a pair of

To be honest I suspect that you will find clipless pedals easier although I use LOOK which wouldn't
meet your other requirements.

But I think you also have the other problem I remember - balance when going slowly[1] - and of
course, you will be cliping in and out at slow speeds.

So I would suggest two things to practice.

1. Without using cleats or the toe grips practice cycling on a very quiet but smooth road as slowly
as you possibly can. (It's probably worth wearing a helmet, gloves and thick full length sleeves
while trying this in case you do fall off and keep well clear of the kerb/drains and any manhole
covers in the middle of the road)

2. Find a downhill (not too steep, just one that you can coast down at about 10-15 miles per hour)
and practice riding down it and stopping. (Again a quiet smooth road)

You can set off, clip in, coast for a few seconds, clip out and then stop.
N.B. Clip out before you start braking until you are confident and then start delaying the clip out
until after you have started braking.

Finally, remember to post here the first time you "forget" about unclipping at a set of traffic
lights. It won't happen until you are (too) confident :-)

Regards,

Tim.

[1] The very first "club" ride I went on I remember not being able to keep back. Every time we got
near to a junction there would be a discussion at about 1mph about which way to go next. I would
have to ride on ahead and wait for the slowcoaches to catch up :-)

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

tjw.hn.orgtjw.hn.orgOpen ↗ locofungus.btinternet.co.uklocofungus.btinternet.co.ukOpen ↗

Velvet wrote: ..........

Quoted message said:

Now, I've come to the point of wondering what to do.

Give clipless (eg. SPD) pedals a go. They needn't be very expensive and you can always go back to
the old pedals (or similar) if you don't like them - but I bet you don't if you give clipless enough
of a chance.

There will be a learning curve where you're getting used to a completely new action and feel, and
some experimentation may be required to get the cleats positioned well, but you'll most likely end
up more comfortable and will be pedalling better.

A possible alternative is to use different "quill" pedals (with different/smoother base) and
larger toeclips. Clips are not all the same size and shape; Some nylon ones can be easier to
manage and take larger shoes than most metal ones, for instance. Replacement quill pedals (for
toeclips) are cheap.

If buying SPD's, definitely don't get single-sided ones (although other single-sided clipless
systems can be ok because their pedals are larger or weighted differently).

Quoted message said:

Obviously the trainers aren't ideal - and are just about falling apart, the sole is smooth they're
that worn down, which is what makes them easy to get
in/out of the toestraps - but the sole being thin, means I can feel the pedal through them, which
is really meant for a cleat, so not *that* comfy for any sort of distances.

And you're sure to eventually get holes above the toes as well. Always happens to me with toeclips.

/snip

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure I'm anywhere near confident to try out spd's yet - stopping is still an ungainly
affair at the best of times

Hold on, hold on! :-) Double-sided SPD's will actually be easier to "get in to" - just stomp foot
down on them - complete no brainer. Disengaging, however, AT FIRST will require some thought: heel
has to be twisted outwards. But, this action will soon become totally automatic and you will
releasing sub-conciously.

To be perfectly honest (and maybe I shouldn't be now?!), there is a risk of falling whilst learning,
but you minimise this by having a sign saying "TWIST" on the handlebars and riding with someone else
instructed to shout "TWIST" at every stop. Anyway, falling from stationary usually doesn't hurt when
you know you're gonna go! :-) Seriously, you should quickly get the hang of them.

re: Starting on hills This can be dodgy and un-nerving even for cyclists who are generally very
confident with their pedals - with ANY type of pedals. Make sure an appropriate gear is selected
first (low but high enough to get some oopmh with the first pedal stroke), and if necessary, start
by pointing the bike sideways and head accross the road or even down the other way a bit, then turn
round once got going properly.

~PB

Paul Rudin said:

My advice is to go for spds - once you get used to them you'll wonder how you ever managed
without. Start out with them set pretty loose so it's very easy clip out.

I've seen this advice quite often here and in other places, and I did indeed set my pedals fairly
loose when I first got them. However, I've never yet felt the urge to tighten them up. Moreover,
I've never come unclipped by accident. So the question is: why would you want them tighter than
'almost as loose as they'll go'?

Ian

--
Ian Walker Remove the yummy paste in my address to reply. Homepage: drianwalker.comdrianwalker.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I am about to consider going SPD with the same shoes and Shimano pedal that has cleats both sides
AND a cage so that you can wear ordinary shoes

Good idea except the pedals will need to be "flipped" half the time. Seriously spoils the idea
of clipless, imo. Some of the chunkier SPD's can be used with ordinary shoes for a short
distance anyway.

ps. By "double-sided" in my previous reply, I meant SPD mechanism on both sides.

~PB

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Paul Rudin said:

My advice is to go for spds - once you get used to them you'll wonder how you ever managed
without. Start out with them set pretty loose so it's very easy clip out.

I've seen this advice quite often here and in other places, and I did indeed set my pedals fairly
loose when I first got them. However, I've never yet felt the urge to tighten them up. Moreover,
I've never come unclipped by accident. So the question is: why would you want them tighter than
'almost as loose as they'll go'?

Maybe you didn't have them that loose in the first place :-) When mine were set loose I did very
occasionally unclip accidentally and oftentimes at awkward moments---standing at the traffic
lights usually.

Incidentally, I have found that I tend to have the right pedal set tighter than the left. Do other
people have them set asymmetrically?

Colin

In article <[email hidden]>, pLime [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am about to consider going SPD with the same shoes and Shimano pedal that has cleats both
sides AND a cage so that you can wear ordinary shoes

Good idea except the pedals will need to be "flipped" half the time. Seriously spoils the idea of
clipless, imo.

I don't know, I have a pair of these on a hybrid that I occasionally leave at work and find the
non-spd side good for when I don't have my spd shoes with me.

Quoted message said:

Some of the chunkier SPD's can be used with ordinary shoes for a short distance anyway.

Again, I have a pair like this on a MTB, I think they claim to be for BMX but I've never seen the
kids doing BMX with spds! Although these can be used without spd shoes the ones I mentioned above
are much more comfortable if I have soft soled shoes on.

Colin

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "IW" == Ian Walker <[email hidden]> writes:

IW On 10 Apr 2003 11:23:45 +0100 said:

Quoted message said:

My advice is to go for spds - once you get used to them you'll wonder how you ever managed
without. Start out with them set pretty loose so it's very easy clip out.

IW> I've seen this advice quite often here and in other places, and I did indeed set my pedals
IW> fairly loose when I first got them. However, I've never yet felt the urge to tighten them up.
IW> Moreover, I've never come unclipped by accident. So the question is: why would you want them
IW> tighter than 'almost as loose as they'll go'?

The main reason, (obviously :-)), is to prevent them coming out when you don't want it to happen. I
find that riding on road you can keep them pretty loose and it's fine. Off-road - where you tend to
bump around and twist and turn a bit more I have them set a bit tighter.

Another reason is that it can feel a bit odd (to me anyway) if there's too much give in the contact
between your foot and the pedal.

--
In Newark the laundromats are open 24 hours a day!

Quoted message said:

I've seen this advice quite often here and in other places, and I did indeed set my pedals fairly
loose when I first got them. However, I've never yet felt the urge to tighten them up. Moreover,
I've never come unclipped by accident. So the question is: why would you want them tighter than
'almost as loose as they'll go'?

Some people /do/ unclip by accident when pedals are set loose (and it's damn nasty when it does
happen) - perhaps by those pulling up powerfully or spinning very fast or erratically. The danger
increases as the cleats wear.

~PB

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MPG.18ff6bfcf50b8b5f989901@localhost...

Quoted message said:

Again, I have a pair like this on a MTB, I think they claim to be for BMX but I've never seen the
kids doing BMX with spds!

Cool

Hands free bunny hops.

Wow, wasn't expecting all those responses, knowing how often the clipless/notclipless topic gets
done to death on here...

Thanks all. I'm not much clearer about if I should attempt spds yet or not. Balance at low speeds
seems ok in some circumstances, and [censored] in others (if pulling up to a junction I *have* been able
to slow down a lot, keep the balance going, whilst checking for a slot in traffic - but then again,
slowing down, balancing, and stopping well is pretty bad a lot of the time).

Toestraps I have are nylon, fairly big, but not big enough to get the shimano shoes in ;-) That's
width, but more of it is height - the nylon front part of the strap arrangement (just what IS that
bit called!) keeps the strap reasonably low to the pedal - ok for trainers, bad news for the deeper
soled shimano shoes. The straps are permanently loose, there's no way on earth I'm going to be
leaning down tightening and releasing those things, I want to get out at any point!!! Oh, did I
mention I'm still mastering taking a hand off the bars too? ;-)

I'm still not sure that maybe I should go for standard pedals till I master this balance/stopping
thing. Given I'm riding a totally different bike to the one I rode well over a decade ago (this has
drops, entirely different position, other one didn't, was a traditional girls/ladies bike) - and
that I'm attempting to ride on the roads and not the pavements (all previous cycling (which was done
as a kid) was on pavement not road) - I'm still wondering if I'm trying to adjust to too many things
different too fast, and whether I should just go for making it as simple as possible and getting the
other basics (like hands off bars for signalling, stopping/starting decently, etc) sorted before
attempting either toestraps or clipless...

Once again, thanks for all the replies. I'll re-read them and mull it over some more.

Velvet

Velvet said:

Wow, wasn't expecting all those responses, knowing how often the clipless/notclipless topic gets
done to death on here...

Hi Velvet

Just to add my two penorth: I have a pair of M036 shoes, almost identical to yours, or so I believe.
Do yourself a favour and buy a cheap pair of SPD pedals. You can always revert to your non-clipless
platforms if you really don't like being clipped in.

Have quick practice in your house whilst leaning against a wall to work out which foot you naturally
prefer to unclip first then just bite the bullet and go for a ride on a quiet road. When approaching
a junction make sure you unclip your favoured foot well before you have to slow down. It's neither
rocket science not brain surgery.

Of course, you will fall off - and that's an order. My first or two tumbles was outside my local
Sainsbury's on a busy Saturday afternoon. The worse thing that will probably happen is that your
cheeks will turn red with embarrassment.

Regards and good luck James

--
A credit limit is NOT a target.

"James Hodson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have quick practice in your house whilst leaning against a wall to work out which foot you
naturally prefer to unclip first then just bite the bullet and go for a ride on a quiet road. When
approaching a junction make sure you unclip your favoured foot well before you have to slow down.
It's neither rocket science not brain surgery.

But -- learn to unclip by swinging your heal OUT. For reasons I don't understand I tend to unclip by
swinging my heal IN. This is fine on my road bike but not possible on my MTB (foot fouls the frame)
-- resulting in a nasty fall and some bruised ribs last w/e -- and a retraining programme over the
next few weeks 🙁

Get it right from the start.

"Ian Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Rudin said:

My advice is to go for spds - once you get used to them you'll wonder how you ever managed
without. Start out with them set pretty loose so it's very easy clip out.

I've seen this advice quite often here and in other places, and I did indeed set my pedals fairly
loose when I first got them. However, I've never yet felt the urge to tighten them up. Moreover,
I've never come unclipped by accident. So the question is: why would you want them tighter than
'almost as loose as they'll go'?

Example One: Sprint off from a traffic light to show cars how fast your reactions and initial
acceleration are, come unclipped, fail, go home, tighten clips. :-(

Example Two: Bombing down rough track, come unclipped, now trying to get foot clipped back into
bucking (yes, I mean bucking) pedal as well as keeping everything else together. (I appreciate more
radical downhillers than me may prefer not to be clipped in). :-(

Re the OP, you could always try the Shimano pedals that have a clip one side and platform t'other.
You could end up with the best of both worlds but in the opinion of a friend who has some it's
annoying to have to flip the pedal to engage the cleat. IMHO go for cheapo double sided SPD's,
it's amazing how soon you get used to them, as has been stated they're easier to dis-engage than
toe clips.

Pete

"Peter B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ian Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 10 Apr 2003 11:23:45 +0100, Paul Rudin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My advice is to go for spds - once you get used to them you'll wonder how you ever managed
without. Start out with them set pretty loose so it's very easy clip out.

I've seen this advice quite often here and in other places, and I did indeed set my pedals
fairly loose when I first got them. However, I've never yet felt the urge to tighten them up.
Moreover, I've never come unclipped by accident. So the question is: why would you want them

tighter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than 'almost as loose as they'll go'?

Example One: Sprint off from a traffic light to show cars how fast your reactions and initial
acceleration are, come unclipped, fail, go home, tighten clips. :-(

Example Two: Bombing down rough track, come unclipped, now trying to get foot clipped back into
bucking (yes, I mean bucking) pedal as well as keeping everything else together. (I appreciate
more radical downhillers than me may prefer not to be clipped in). :-(

Re the OP, you could always try the Shimano pedals that have a clip one

side

Quoted message said:

and platform t'other. You could end up with the best of both worlds but in the opinion of a friend
who has some it's annoying to have to flip the

pedal

Quoted message said:

to engage the cleat. IMHO go for cheapo double sided SPD's, it's amazing how soon you get used

to

Quoted message said:

them, as has been stated they're easier to dis-engage than toe clips.

Pete

Are they easier to disengage than *loose* toe clips, though?

Velvet

Velvet said:

Toestraps I have are nylon, fairly big, but not big enough to get the shimano shoes in ;-) That's
width, but more of it is height - the nylon front part of the strap arrangement (just what IS that
bit called!) keeps the strap reasonably low to the pedal - ok for trainers, bad news for the
deeper soled shimano shoes.

Straps: doesn't particularly matter if they're nylon or leather; and doesn't matter what kind of
buckle as well. I was earlier referring to the actual clip - that's the large part in the front that
supports front of feet and straps. For examples of various clips, see:
www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm

Quoted message said:

The straps are permanently loose, there's no way on earth I'm going to be leaning down tightening
and releasing those things, I want to get out at any point!!!

That's perfectly reasonable. I still use toe clips & straps on one bike* and I never have them so
tight that I can't release without flicking the buckle.
* For ease of going shopping, etc. I would prefer SPD's but that would mean investing in yet
another set of pedals and shoes (I already use Looks on my road bike).

Quoted message said:

I'm still not sure that maybe I should go for standard pedals till I master this
balance/stopping thing.

I suspect that most of your problems are caused by the particular pedals and clips you have - and
not general incompetence! :-) Yes, you'd probably be better off with plain platform pedals, but you
may well (eventually) be even happier with clipless pedals with their extra efficiency and security.
(Shame "clipless" is such a silly term - because platforms also don't have clips - but hopefully,
you know what I mean!).

Quoted message said:

Given I'm riding a totally different bike to the one I rode well over a decade ago (this has
drops, entirely different position, other one didn't, was a traditional girls/ladies bike) - and
that I'm attempting to ride on the roads and not the pavements (all previous cycling (which was
done as a kid) was on pavement not road) - I'm still wondering if I'm trying to adjust to too many
things different too fast, and whether I should just go for making it as simple as possible and
getting the other basics (like hands off bars for signalling, stopping/starting decently, etc)
sorted before attempting either toestraps or clipless...

Not a bad idea. I suggest getting rid of the current pedals and clips ASAP then try whatever option
you most feel like next - including plain platforms.

~PB

Velvet said:

Are they easier to disengage than *loose* toe clips, though?

Same but different (as my nan used to say:-) Virtually* as easy as loose toe clips, but it's a
different action - so there is a beginner stage where you have to re-program the brain.

More importantly, for convenience, they are easier to ENgage.

* I suppose they're slightly more difficult because feet have to be rotated instead of simply
pulling back, but honestly, you will do this automatically once used to them (only takes a
few rides).

~PB