college swimmer potential

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What criteria do you use? <<

I'm not a coach of any kind, but here's what I think:

1. Times
2. Times
3. Times
4. Times
5. Times
6. Did the swimmer achieve those times in a high end program (e.g.
Irvine NOVA) or in a low end program (e.g. River City YMCA).
7. Training ethos and attitude (as reported by the swimmer's coach)
8. Grades

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What criteria do you use? <<

I'm not a coach of any kind, but here's what I think:

1. Times
2. Times
3. Times
4. Times
5. Times
6. Did the swimmer achieve those times in a high end program (e.g.
Irvine NOVA) or in a low end program (e.g. River City YMCA).
7. Training ethos and attitude (as reported by the swimmer's coach)
8. Grades

I would add shoulder flexibility and kicking speed. They weren't
guarantees, but they were good indicators.

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Quoted message said:

>What criteria do you use? <<

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. Times
6. Did the swimmer achieve those times in a high end program (e.g.
Irvine NOVA) or in a low end program (e.g. River City YMCA).
7. Training ethos and attitude (as reported by the swimmer's coach)
8. Grades

I would add shoulder flexibility and kicking speed. They weren't
guarantees, but they were good indicators.

So a girl comes out of Nova at a 54 100 speed, with a 5:10 500
and has trained hard there, great attitude.

another comes out of a summer only swim program w/ 3 years of high school
at 1:00 100 and 6:00 500, also never missed a required practice, did extra
work
on her own, and similarly great attitude.

Both got straight A's of course. We'll make this a Div II or III program,
can't see girl 2 getting to swim in a Div I program.

both are similar statures as far as body type, reasonably tall and
athletic.
You judge both to have good swimming technique by looking at them.

What would your expectations be of their comparable speeds by their senior
years,
given relatively injury free, and both do the college training program
diligently.

thanks
mike

54 100 and 5:10 500 out of NOVA means she's unlikely to get much
faster. But she'd clearly be welcome at most DII programs and all
DIIIs. Doubt that there'd be much, if any, scholarship money, however.

1:00 100 and 6:00 500 after three years of year around training
wouldn't get her any expense paid recruiting trips or any scholarships,
but she could certainly swim at the DIII level.

If you haven't already done so, visit collegeswimming.com and look over
the meet times at the various levels and the recruiting information.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

54 100 and 5:10 500 out of NOVA means she's unlikely to get much
faster. But she'd clearly be welcome at most DII programs and all
DIIIs. Doubt that there'd be much, if any, scholarship money, however.

interesting.

Topped out? wow.

Really? Do you mean that 4 years of training won't get her much faster?
Makes no sense to me. Seems that her aerobic capacity can improve
significantly, as can her strength as she ages out of puberty.

Quoted message said:

1:00 100 and 6:00 500 after three years of year around training
wouldn't get her any expense paid recruiting trips or any scholarships,
but she could certainly swim at the DIII level.

no my point of 2nd swimmer is she isn't in a year round
Nova type program, a June-Aug summer swim program and high school only

I know that Div III and NAIA both great options, but my question is
what you as coach can expect to do to improve each of those
athletes, and how much?

I'm not addressing these as the world's number one expert, simply as
someone who's been a swim Dad for 17 years now and as someone who's
personally followed scores of kids (particularly girls, as I've got two
of those myself) from age group swimming through high school and now
almost through college. Two of those kids made the Olympic team (Aaron
Peirsol and Kristen Caverly), many got scholarships at top D1 programs
(Stanford, Auburn,Texas,USC,Arizona,Texas A&M,etc.). Others went on to
swim at places like UC San Diego, UC Santa Barbara, UC Irvine, U of
Hawaii, Harvard, Yale, Brown, Princeton, Washington, Oregon State, BYU,
Fresno, Michigan, zillions more. And I "followed" these kids not only
from age group into college, but also in most cases on through. So I
do have some sort of longitudinal database that might be even better
than most college coaches, given that the latter don't follow kids from
the low single digits up through college, as I've been able to.

Anyway, to address first the summer only swimmer. Most high school
kids don't swim in summer only programs. It's usually a grade school
thing. But a lot of kids swim high school only. It's not at all
unusual for kids to have had only a short age group experience, drop
out of the sport, and come back and swim high school season only (3-4
months). Among those, there are quite a few who can go around 60
seconds for the hundred and 6:00 for the 500. I've known several who
went sub 58 and swam down below 5:30. So I really don't think it's
likely that someone who's a HS senior and doing 1:00 and 6:00 after
three summers is likely to get down to low 50s and sub 5:00, which
would get into the highly respectable DII level.

Likewise, I don't know anyone who swam 54 and 5:10 out of NOVA who ever
improved all that much in college.

That's not to say that some girls don't improve. Famously, Amy Van
Dyken was alleged to be a clutz in HS who couldn't make her relay team,
but she ended up winning the 50 at NCAA Div Is for Colorado State and,
of course, Olympic Gold Medals. That's pretty unusual, though.

I think in the strokes you can predict a lot more than freestyle.
Certain body types and flexibility definately help in fly, back and
breast.

Mike Sullivan said:

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

>>What criteria do you use? <<

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. Times
6. Did the swimmer achieve those times in a high end program (e.g.
Irvine NOVA) or in a low end program (e.g. River City YMCA).
7. Training ethos and attitude (as reported by the swimmer's coach)
8. Grades

I would add shoulder flexibility and kicking speed. They weren't
guarantees, but they were good indicators.

So a girl comes out of Nova at a 54 100 speed, with a 5:10 500
and has trained hard there, great attitude.

another comes out of a summer only swim program w/ 3 years of high school
at 1:00 100 and 6:00 500, also never missed a required practice, did extra
work
on her own, and similarly great attitude.

Both got straight A's of course. We'll make this a Div II or III program,
can't see girl 2 getting to swim in a Div I program.

both are similar statures as far as body type, reasonably tall and
athletic.
You judge both to have good swimming technique by looking at them.

What would your expectations be of their comparable speeds by their senior
years,
given relatively injury free, and both do the college training program
diligently.

I don't think I would have expectations. If they both want to swim,
then I would do my best to help them get as far as they each could go.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think I would have expectations. If they both want to swim,

then I would do my best to help them get as far as they each could go.
<<

Absolutely superb advice. I think that the people who get the most
lifelong benefit out of the sport are those who don't necessarily make
it to the top as kids. My Dad was rated 11th in the nation in the 400
free in 1932, but that didn't even get him an invitation to Coach
Kiphuth's Olympic tryouts (as they were called then). He's spent the
ensuing 73 1/2 years trying to prove that he belonged. I visited him in
South Florida a couple of weeks ago. At age 92, his shoulders are
feeling pretty good after taking glucosamine/chondroiten for 8 months
and he's back up to swimming an hour a day. He swims in an outdoor
pool and gets in before sunrise. He's the only one in the pool and he
watches the sunrise every morning while doing backstroke. Still
competes, winning his age group in 5 events from the 50 back to the 800
free at last summer's Kentucky Long Course masters. For many of the
people who raced in the LA Olympics in the summer of '32, it was
probably their last race. So who got more out of the sport?

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think I would have expectations. If they both want to swim,

then I would do my best to help them get as far as they each could go.
<<

Absolutely superb advice. I think that the people who get the most
lifelong benefit out of the sport are those who don't necessarily make
it to the top as kids. My Dad was rated 11th in the nation in the 400
free in 1932, but that didn't even get him an invitation to Coach
Kiphuth's Olympic tryouts (as they were called then). He's spent the
ensuing 73 1/2 years trying to prove that he belonged. I visited him in
South Florida a couple of weeks ago. At age 92, his shoulders are
feeling pretty good after taking glucosamine/chondroiten for 8 months
and he's back up to swimming an hour a day. He swims in an outdoor
pool and gets in before sunrise. He's the only one in the pool and he
watches the sunrise every morning while doing backstroke. Still
competes, winning his age group in 5 events from the 50 back to the 800
free at last summer's Kentucky Long Course masters. For many of the
people who raced in the LA Olympics in the summer of '32, it was
probably their last race. So who got more out of the sport?

Totally agree. I think everyone should have a sport and an
instrument. The achievement and degree of skill is less
than secondary; it's the enriched life that makes it all
worthwhile.

Until my knee erased most of my running, I also went out
before dawn. Like your father, I wanted to be out and part
of the landscape when daylight appeared.

rtk

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What criteria do you use? <<

I'm not a coach of any kind, but here's what I think:

1. Times
2. Times
3. Times
4. Times
5. Times
6. Did the swimmer achieve those times in a high end program (e.g.
Irvine NOVA) or in a low end program (e.g. River City YMCA).
7. Training ethos and attitude (as reported by the swimmer's coach)
8. Grades

Not wanting to disagree with the King of RSS, but, well, I will in this
case! He got the major ones, but I just want to perhaps rearrange them a
little.

My job basically consists of roughly three components: The first is
practice/meet coaching and planning. The second is the administration junk
that comes with being a full-time coach. The third is trying to sell my
'product' to college coaches - my point being I spend a great deal of time
trying to get my swimmers the best deal out there. As such, I spend
considerable time trying to figure out how best to promote my product in an
ultra-competitive market.

So, here's my list of things I need to consider when doing this:

1. Times
First, and most basically, the kid has to be performing at a level that will
contribute to the school's goals. At bigger D1 schools, this means potential
to score at Conference or qualify for NCAA's - usually this means being
close to or having already attained Senior National cuts.

2. Times
Secondly, if the kid has these times, when did they get them? Most schools
are wary of Kids, particularly girls, who were fast as 14/15 year olds, but
haven't improved as upperclassmen. More exciting to the college coach is the
'diamond in the rough' who had modest times as a freshmen, but explodes as
they become upperclassmen. Potential to improve is more important...and a
kid who contnually improves throughout HS is a surer bet than a kid who
plateaued halfway there.

3. Money
Bottom line - can this kid meet the expectations associated with the cost to
bring them in. Almost all programs now split their scholarships. Can they
afford to come to my school? Whats the smallest amount of scholarship I can
give this kid to bring them to my program? Is it worth spending the dough on
an out-of-state kid vs. one who is in state albeit a little slower than the
girl from the next state over?

4. Grades
IS the kid at least at the academic level that they can make it into my
school? Is the kid accomplished enough that I don't have to worry they'll
flunk out second semester? Almost always, the answer is yes with swimmers,
but some schools are very strict, even with high level swimmers.

5. Club Program
Is the kids program a solid one? Am I inheriting smart, well disciplined
swimmers? Is the program one that has already put 70K a week into the
swimemr just to get them in the recruiting spotlight? Have they lifted
weights consistently? If so, can I do more with this kid to ensure they
advance from 70K and weights?

6. Attitude
Did the kid suffer a bad case of 'senioritits'? Do they have any behavioral
problems, or diva-tendencies? Whatever the problem the coach might
highlight, if they're fast enough, this one won't matter...trust me.

This whole process is much like a meat market - I'm trying to get the best
bang for the kids, and the coaches are also trying to get the best deals in
town.

Making kids stand out isn't easy, especially when their aspirations don't
match their qualifications.

Take a look here:

http://www.lakecountryswimming.com/RAPGallery.htm

These are examples of the online recruiting profiles I build and use to
promote my athletes to schools. The most popular info is always the time
progression, and of course the video footage.

Thankfully with conference meets going on, I get time off from this process
and get to preapre for my own upcoming meets..

Steve

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think I would have expectations. If they both want to swim,

then I would do my best to help them get as far as they each could go.
<<

Absolutely superb advice. I think that the people who get the most
lifelong benefit out of the sport are those who don't necessarily make

In many cases, yes. I have coached scullers of various levels
from elite to recreational. Those are substantially two different
sports. At an elite level, expectations by the coach and athlete
are key to the commitment, and provide an urgency that
the program is well planned, well executed, and directing the athlete
to the best result. A big piece is being able to know what an
individual athlete is capable of.

I may be warped, but competition at the collegiate level is one
of the most outstanding competitive opportunities there is in education,
and that the best experience comes out of total commitment. For
the rest of your life after that, you can have fun in masters events
or recreational sport, you can truly enjoy the aesthetics of it more,
and appreciate being alive and healthy and fit.

It makes absolutely no sense to me what Larry says that a woman
coming into college with a 54- 5:10 will be swimming substantively
the same times in her senior year. BTW, I know he's right, thanks
to google, I can look up a lot of these kids. It is why I ask the question
of expectation.

Mike

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

snip

Quoted message said:

Anyway, to address first the summer only swimmer. Most high school
kids don't swim in summer only programs. It's usually a grade school
thing. But a lot of kids swim high school only. It's not at all
unusual for kids to have had only a short age group experience, drop
out of the sport, and come back and swim high school season only (3-4
months). Among those, there are quite a few who can go around 60
seconds for the hundred and 6:00 for the 500. I've known several who
went sub 58 and swam down below 5:30. So I really don't think it's
likely that someone who's a HS senior and doing 1:00 and 6:00 after
three summers is likely to get down to low 50s and sub 5:00, which
would get into the highly respectable DII level.

Interesting. I derive this to mean, if a kid's got talent, it'll come
through in a few seasons of HS and some summer. We're from
the North Coast, all the swimmers we know that went on to DI-DIII
colleges were swimming in good year round programs through
most of HS. Many would take a winter off here or there. We're
from that podunk summer only place. I saw kids from our club
who were as fast as the big club kids at 9-10, then as the big
club kids moved on to year round, they put a lot of distance
on them, dramatic.

Quoted message said:

Likewise, I don't know anyone who swam 54 and 5:10 out of NOVA who ever
improved all that much in college.

In talking to coaches, many told me that lots of kids get the scholarship
then go on cruise control in college, doing what's necessary and having
as much fun as they can, but not expecting to improve. NCAA
training rules are pretty restrictive, and I strongly suspect most kids
don't do what they need to do year round to keep getting better,
instead going through a pattern of having to get in shape each year.

I haven't a lot of evidence but what I see in results.

I certainly understand that once you get to a certain level, it's harder
to improve, and indeed in looking around at kids I know at the
various schools, looks like a good portion of them get hurt.

My daughter is in DIII school now, enjoying immensely and
improving. Of course, I wanted her to row so I could be
a row dad, but damn kids, rebellious rapscallions!!! :^)

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

snip

Quoted message said:

http://www.lakecountryswimming.com/RAPGallery.htm

These are examples of the online recruiting profiles I build and use to
promote my athletes to schools. The most popular info is always the time
progression, and of course the video footage.

Thankfully with conference meets going on, I get time off from this
process and get to preapre for my own upcoming meets..

This is outstanding stuff!! Excellent.

What about my question, Steve. Do the swimmers in your club tend
to improve as they move through the college program?

Do they expect to improve, and how much?

Is there a difference in that expectation between swimmers
who believe they have an Oly shot, and ones who don't?

You got some blazing swimmers, wow.

Mike

"Mike Sullivan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

snip

Quoted message said:

http://www.lakecountryswimming.com/RAPGallery.htm

These are examples of the online recruiting profiles I build and use to
promote my athletes to schools. The most popular info is always the time
progression, and of course the video footage.

Thankfully with conference meets going on, I get time off from this
process and get to preapre for my own upcoming meets..

This is outstanding stuff!! Excellent.

What about my question, Steve. Do the swimmers in your club tend
to improve as they move through the college program?

depends on the school they went to, rather than the team they came from as
far as I can see.

For example, I sent a girl out to a team (won't name her or the team) - her
senior year I got her down from a 5:03 to a 4:57 in the 500 for example, and
she had dropped in all of her events. The college team immediately took her,
and changed all of her strokes, changed her dryland and her yardage, and now
am wondering why she hasn't improved. She went in as a mid-distance utility,
and is now being trained as a sprinter. Despite only being 5'3" and very
slight. They're also trying to change her stroke from a kayak style, to a
long, DPS FQS stroke....as has been discussed on this forum before, and i
firmly believe, thats probably why she hasn't had a best time in 2 years.
Suffice to say, I shan't be sending anyone else to that program while that
coach is at the helm.

other kids have done very well at other schools, and continue to do well.
Its by no means a given that just because a school is big and successful,
they can take any and all kids and improve them...ittakes plenty of
communication and knowledge of where they're coming from, and a great
concentration in a gradual transition to the colege plan.

Quoted message said:

Do they expect to improve, and how much?

Some kids aspirations are to get a scholarship, have a good time and
contribute - for them, its usually a case of going where the best deal is.
For kids who want to get and stay at the Senior National/Trials/minor
INternational level, its usually a case of getting them into the best
programs, even if means they don't get a bundle of aid. For example, we had
a guy who in 80% of the D1 programs could have gotten 60-80%...instead, he
went to a proven team who gets folks to that level, and barely got a dime.
By his sophomore year he had earned more aid, was scoring at NCAA's and is a
prospect for minor international competition within the next few years.

Quoted message said:

Is there a difference in that expectation between swimmers
who believe they have an Oly shot, and ones who don't?

You got some blazing swimmers, wow.

Mike

In article <[email hidden]>,

diablo said:

Take a look here:

http://www.lakecountryswimming.com/RAPGallery.htm

Other than the scrolling text (which I'd consider in bad taste), this is
very classy. How many collegiate coaches actually go to your site and
look at it? And do any tell you that it helped their recruiting task?

Ross

"Ross Bogue" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

diablo said:

Take a look here:

http://www.lakecountryswimming.com/RAPGallery.htm

Other than the scrolling text (which I'd consider in bad taste), this is
very classy. How many collegiate coaches actually go to your site and
look at it? And do any tell you that it helped their recruiting task?

Ross

It's not set up as a database that is mass-mailed out to schools.

When we begin the process with an individual, we isolate conferences based
on desired location and amount of financial aid wanted etc, and then create
a short list of about 20-30 schools.

I then write an individualized email for the swimmer and send it along
withthe link to the bio tot he coaches in question. Based on what the
response is, we further narrow this down to about 10 potential schools by
the spring of their junior year, and use the summer to have their 3-5
schools figured out by the recruiting visit period in the fall.

Schools have been extremely complimentary to the service - it allows the kid
to be more than just a name in a heat sheet, and saves them the research of
looking at progression, as well as the obvious benefits of whatching the
video footage.

A rough estimate of response to this would be say 3 out of 4 colleges we
contact gets back to us and the athlete. This is based both upon emails and
mailings we get, and also checking the website's visitor stats after i mail
out the profiles.

The scrolling text will be gone soon - now i'm improving with Paintshop Pro,
I'm updating most of the art and headers on the site...

....that would be the fourth major part of my job.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It makes absolutely no sense to me what Larry says that a woman

coming into college with a 54- 5:10 will be swimming substantively
the same times in her senior year. <<

No, what you asked and what I said was about a kid who came up through
a program like NOVA and, by the end of HS was swimming 54/5:10. This
is a kid who will have received superb technique instruction and superb
training. If the kid a girl (who quite often are physically optimum at
age 18, unlike boys), then it would be very unusual for such a kid to
go to college and get a whole lot faster.

This is different from a kid with the same times who came out of the
River City YMCA.

As for the kid who was 1:00 and 6:00 after three summers on a club team
and 3 years of HS swimming, I likewise think it very unlikely that this
swimmer would, as written, get down to the low 50s/sub 5:00 level.

I don't think that anyone should ever be given or ever set limits; on
the other hand I think it's valuable for swim parents (which is who I
was writing this for, as opposed to swimmers themselves, whom I'd never
discourage) to have realistic expectations.

- Larry

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It makes absolutely no sense to me what Larry says that a woman

coming into college with a 54- 5:10 will be swimming substantively
the same times in her senior year. <<

No, what you asked and what I said was about a kid who came up through
a program like NOVA and, by the end of HS was swimming 54/5:10. This
is a kid who will have received superb technique instruction and superb
training. If the kid a girl (who quite often are physically optimum at
age 18, unlike boys), then it would be very unusual for such a kid to
go to college and get a whole lot faster.

I fully understood that, and in that context, and yes it does
appear to be unusual. I'm trying to figure out why.

I've been talking about women, do men expect to
get faster throughout college?

Quoted message said:

This is different from a kid with the same times who came out of the
River City YMCA.

As for the kid who was 1:00 and 6:00 after three summers on a club team
and 3 years of HS swimming, I likewise think it very unlikely that this
swimmer would, as written, get down to the low 50s/sub 5:00 level.

Right, you would think that a swimmer with high school and some
summer would be showing it then. Fair enough.

Mike