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Compulsory helmets again!

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UK and Europe
Published
7 November 2003
Last activity
19 November 2003
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Richard Burton
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  1. nik said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    pig pog <[email hidden]> writes:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do you have sources for either of those figures? There has been some discussion of this on
    Urban Cyclist UK and the same claim (that 28000 is a figure for all serious head injuries) but
    it wasn't attributed either. No one has managed to find a good source for the actual figure
    for total child cycling releated serious head injuries although since legislation would be
    likely to be restricted to on-road cycling it is only fair to compare with the stats for
    on-road injuries (which seem to have the added attraction of existing)

    Quoted message said:

    Could you tell us what they are and where to find them?

    I don't know about these figures but the government tell us that in
    2002: 22 child pedal cyclists were killed; 594 killed or seriously injured and a figure of 4,809
    for 'all severities' so I don't see how 28,000 kids could have got serious head injuries!

    dft.gov.ukdft transstats 506510.xls

    Thanks.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of bytes. Any opinion or meaning
    you find in it is your own creation.

  2. "nik" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    pig pog <[email hidden]> writes:

    I don't know about these figures but the government tell us that in
    2002: 22 child pedal cyclists were killed; 594 killed or seriously injured and a figure of 4,809
    for 'all severities' so I don't see how 28,000 kids could have got serious head injuries!


    dft.gov.ukdft transstats 506510.xls

    Quoted message said:


    Nik

    and "Child Cyclists

    2.5 Child cyclists killed or seriously injured are fewer in number than child pedestrians."

    from the report available at
    dft.gov.ukdft rdsafety 507867.pdf>

    So more child pedestrians are killed than child cyclists, which begs the question why don't BHIT
    bother themselves with child pedestrians where their actions would be more effective? Unless, of
    course, they are obsessed about the miniscule dangers of cycling.

  3. "nik" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    pig pog <[email hidden]> writes:

    I don't know about these figures but the government tell us that in
    2002: 22 child pedal cyclists were killed; 594 killed or seriously injured and a figure of 4,809
    for 'all severities' so I don't see how 28,000 kids could have got serious head injuries!


    dft.gov.ukdft transstats 506510.xls

    Quoted message said:


    Nik

    and "2.6 The remaining major problem area for children killed or seriously injured is when
    travelling as passengers in cars. These represent a greater proportion of child KSI than cyclists."

    from the same report at
    dft.gov.ukdft rdsafety 507867.pdf

    Perhaps it's time BHIT had a look at their version of reality, it would appear to be malfunctioning,
    and in severe need of an update.

  4. Simon Brooke said:

    [1] Humpback bridge followed by a sharp right hand bend; my wheels didn't touch the ground in time
    to take the bend.

    That summons up a great cartoon like mental image. Bet it felt like you were in mid air for ages!

    LOL!

    pk

  5. Simon Brooke must be edykated coz e writed:

    Quoted message said:


    In other words, the net saving of life is likely to be nil and may well be negative, and the
    impact on general health is certain to be negative. There seems to me _every_ reason to oppose
    this legislation.

    [1] Humpback bridge followed by a sharp right hand bend; my wheels didn't touch the ground in time
    to take the bend.

    Based on your experiences, however based on mine, my best friend died when I was 17, he fell off his
    bicycle and suffered head injuries.

    --
    Ian

    catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.uk

  6. PK said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    [1] Humpback bridge followed by a sharp right hand bend; my wheels didn't touch the ground in
    time to take the bend.

    That summons up a great cartoon like mental image. Bet it felt like you were in mid air for ages!

    Well the real truth is that there was a T junction immediately after the bridge, which was at the
    bottom of a good steep hill. We usually jumped this bridge and carried straight on, which was OK.
    On this particular occasion I decided to jump the bridge and turn right... only there turned out
    not to be enough road and I went into the wood before, I think, my wheels touched tarmac at all.
    _Totally_ stupid.

    This was on the first occasion that my parents had gone away for the week leaving me alone in the
    house - I would have been thirteen or fourteen, I think.

    But yes, it was a most excellent shunt!

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of bytes. Any opinion or meaning
    you find in it is your own creation.

  7. Ian said:

    Simon Brooke must be edykated coz e writed:

    Quoted message said:

    In other words, the net saving of life is likely to be nil and may well be negative, and the
    impact on general health is certain to be negative. There seems to me _every_ reason to oppose
    this legislation.

    [1] Humpback bridge followed by a sharp right hand bend; my wheels didn't touch the ground in
    time to take the bend.

    Based on your experiences, however based on mine, my best friend died when I was 17, he fell off
    his bicycle and suffered head injuries.

    Not flaming or anyhting, but on this occasion do you believe a helmet would have made a significant
    difference? I'm not saying it wouldn't, I'm just asking what you think.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of bytes. Any opinion or meaning
    you find in it is your own creation.

  8. "PK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Ah, so you agree that not wearing a helmet is danerous? (;-)

    Yes. Walking helmets should be made compulsory at all times.

    :~)

  9. Ian said:

    Simon Brooke must be edykated coz e writed:

    Quoted message said:


    What counts as 'responible' in this instance?

    It is not a case of "this instance", some parents are not responsible people full stop.

    Well, that's true, of course!

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of bytes. Any opinion or meaning
    you find in it is your own creation.

  10. "Ian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Simon Brooke must be edykated coz e writed:

    Quoted message said:


    What counts as 'responible' in this instance?

    It is not a case of "this instance", some parents are not responsible


    people

    Quoted message said:

    full stop.

    So you think these irresponsible parents will ensure their kids wear helmets to comply with the law
    if wearing becomes compulsory?

    It's a rare event to see a paperboy/girl (for the PC nazis) using lights during these dark mornings
    and evenings so their parents are irresponsible, the papershops complicit and the local newspaper
    hypocritical as they would crusade if they believed another industry was using teenagers in such a
    manner for profit.

    Pete

  11. Simon Brooke must be edykated coz e writed:

    Quoted message said:
    Ian said:

    Simon Brooke must be edykated coz e writed:

    Quoted message said:

    In other words, the net saving of life is likely to be nil and may well be negative, and the
    impact on general health is certain to be negative. There seems to me _every_ reason to oppose
    this legislation.

    [1] Humpback bridge followed by a sharp right hand bend; my wheels didn't touch the ground in
    time to take the bend.

    Based on your experiences, however based on mine, my best friend died when I was 17, he fell off
    his bicycle and suffered head injuries.

    Not flaming or anyhting, but on this occasion do you believe a helmet would have made a
    significant difference? I'm not saying it wouldn't, I'm just asking what you think.


    It could well have.

    --
    Ian

    catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.uk

  12. "JohnB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I'm sitting here in front of my Mac and *not* wearing a helmet. It's not dangerous at all.

    You are at higher risk at home than cycling. So put your helmet on immediately.

    T

  13. Ian said:

    JohnB must be edykated coz e writed:

    Quoted message said:
    PK said:

    Ah, so you agree that not wearing a helmet is danerous? (;-)

    I'm sitting here in front of my Mac and *not* wearing a helmet. It's not dangerous at all.

    Damn, the PC in the corner has just crashed ;-)

    John B


    Was it wearing a helmet?

    Nah... so it was its own fault. Can't even blame Mr Gates.

    John B

  14. Tony W said:

    You are at higher risk at home than cycling. So put your helmet on immediately.

    If I wear a helmet round the house then I have to duck to avoid hitting my head when I walk down the
    stairs. That doesn't make me any safer
    :-P

    --
    Danny Colyer (cover cow with a net to reply) juggler.netdanny Recumbent cycle page:
    speedy5.freeserve.co.ukrecumbents "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
    Thomas Paine

  15. I am drafting a reply to send to the Legion of the Duped:

    I note that you have signed Early Day Motion no. 1783. Please be aware that it contains
    factual errors:

    "notes that every year in the UK approximately 28,000 children under the age of 16 years receive a
    serious head injury as a result of a cycling accident"

    According to the DfT's published statistics, in 2002 there were 4,809 child cyclist injuries of all
    severities, to all parts of the body, of which 594 were serious or fatal. The figure of 28,000
    "serious head injuries" is in excess of the total reported cyclist injuries, all ages, all
    severities.

    "recognises that by simply wearing a bicycle helmet 85 per cent. of such head injuries could be
    prevented"

    The authors of the study from which the 85% figure is taken have since published much lower
    estimates following criticisms of the methodology and sample used. Even with the lower numbers this
    study is not considered reliable, mainly due to sample bias (it also "proves" that helmets reduce
    leg and torso injuries). This has been documented by John Franklin (lesberries.co.uklesberries.co.uk),
    author of the advanced cycling manual Cyclecraft, published by The Stationery Office.

    No real-world population has ever demonstrated even one tenth of the claimed reductions in head
    injuries following introduction of a helmet law, claims which range from 16% up to the 85%
    erroneously quoted in the EDM. Most populations record a substantial drop in numbers cycling, with
    an equivalent reduction in numbers injured, leaving the injury rate the same. Some populations
    indicate a worrying rise in injury rates.

    Nor is that the only source of contra-indication. Casualty rates for cyclists and pedestrians have
    historically tracked each other closely. An investigation of these trends over twenty years, a
    period during which helmet wearing rose by up to 50% in some areas, shows no measurable
    differential. Similar studies in New York, analysing only child pedestrian and child cyclist
    casualties, reaches the same conclusion: although by the end of the study period over 40% of child
    cyclists were wearing helmets, their casualty rate had varied exactly as the pedestrian casualty
    rate. The helmets had no measurable effect.

    This is so counter-intuitive that it took me a long time to accept it. As a parent of young children
    who are keen cyclists you can imagine that I am not inclined to take such things on trust. It is a
    real puzzle, and as far as I am aware the Government has not yet commissioned any research to
    establish why it is that widespread use of cycle helmets consistently fails to realise not just the
    claimed benefits, but indeed any measurable benefit whatsoever.

    What is clear, though, is that embarking on a course of action when such an enormous gulf exists
    between the claimed benefits and the actual effects in real populations would be foolish. It
    demands at the very least a thorough investigation of the reasons why the claimed benefits have
    never been realised in practice - those who do not learn from their mistakes are, after all, doomed
    to repeat them.

    "calls upon her Majesty's Government to give its full support to such a proposal which would both
    save lives and stop injuries on our roads."

    BHIT admits that 90% of child cycle injuries occur off road (by implication on private land).
    The proposal would only affect those riding on the road, the vast majority of whom are in any
    case not children (one presumes that Government is not intending to force use of personal
    protective equipment by private individuals on private land, as this would set a very
    far-reaching precedent indeed).

    Road crashes are of course a concern. But cycle helmets are designed to protect in single vehicle
    crashes at speeds up to about 12mph. As soon as a motor vehicle is involved, any crash will almost
    by definition exceed the design parameters of any commercially available pedal cycle helmet. Read
    the manufacturers' disclaimers.

    So we have come from "28,000 children" via some statistics which not even their authors now
    support to a call to force primarily adult cyclists riding, for the most part, in a completely
    different environment, to wear a helmet to protect them against something it is not designed to
    protect against.

    "commends the excellent campaign of the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust to get Parliament to
    introduce legislation to enforce the wearing of helmets by all bicyclists in the UK"

    Can we really describe their work as "excellent?" Undoubtedly they mean well, but excellence implies
    very high standards and a thoroughly thought-through agenda. I do not seek to discredit BHIT, but I
    would take issue with any description of them as "excellent." For example:

    - BHIT continue to publish the 85% claim, despite the fact, of which they must by now be fully
    aware, that not even its authors now support it. This is not just misleading but actively
    dangerous: impressionable youngsters may be persuaded that they can engage in more dangerous
    behaviour than they otherwise would, and that a helmet will protect them from the consequences of
    foolishness. This is not "excellent."

    - BHIT have claimed in the press that if all children wore cycle helmets it would save the NHS £2
    billion per year. According to the Office of National Statistics the NHS spends £1.5 billion per
    year treating children under 16 for all conditions, injuries and ailments. It is not possible for
    child head injuries preventable by cycle helmets to yield BHITs claimed savings. This is not
    "excellent."

    - BHIT have claimed in the press that helmets do not deter cycling, and that the substantial
    reduction in numbers cycling in Australia post- law was due to a reduction in the legal age for
    driving by one year. This, too, is incorrect. The drop in adult cycling was around 20% (and the
    drop in teenage cycling around 45%). This is not "excellent."

    BHIT is a single-issue campaign group which has consistently said that it will have achieved its
    objective when every cyclist wears a helmet. They have never attempted to establish whether helmet
    compulsion would yield better results than, say, a programme of good quality roadcraft training in
    schools. This tunnel vision may be acceptable for a pressure group but not for a legislature. No
    crash is caused by failure to wear a helmet, and compulsion will not prevent a single crash. As such
    their campaign is wholly focused on the symptoms, introducing a "cure" which should be rendered
    entirely redundant by a successful campaign targeted on the causes of the problem. A cure, moreover,
    which is proven to carry with it at least one undesirable side-effect: substantial reductions in the
    numbers cycling.

  16. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I am drafting a reply to send to the Legion of the Duped:

    Guy

    May I steal this to use for similar purposes ?

    Regards Simon

  17. Simon Brooke said:

    the wall might, too. When I was a kid we rode far further on our bikes than kids do now, and I
    can't recall anyone who suffered _any_ serious injury in a push-bike accident.

    Well, mate of my brothers was really proud of thge duration of his wheelies. Pulled a nice big one
    and teh front wheel fell out. For some reason, decided coming down forwards onto tarmac was safer
    than going over the back. Removed pretty much all his front teeth, and re-arranged various soft bits
    of his face too.

    I broke my finger - fall off bike, put arms out in front to break fall, insert fingers down drain
    grating and fall over the top of them, leaving them dangling loose.

    Those are the two most serious I can think of, and neither was very life threatening, nor resulted
    in long-term diability.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  18. you know? said:

    I am drafting a reply to send to the Legion of the Duped:

    Although I agree with just about every word I feel it's far too long and detailed to send to an MP.
    They don't have time to read all that and probably will not bother. It might also mention that the
    BMA are opposed to compulsion, though in favour of voluntary helmet wearing. Also, people should not
    copy Guy's letter but write their own. Identical letters will be detected and ignored.

    It might be an idea to find out how the MPs divide among us. Each person could then stress different
    points in his own words, while making sure that each MP's letters taken as a whole cover all the
    points. Mine is Vincent Cable, who has signed the EDM.

    The cynical side of me suspects that most of the MPs who've signed this motion couldn't give a stuff
    about cyclists or helmets. They simply want to be seen to be concerned about protecting children.
    This is what gives BHIT such an advantage.

    --
    Dave...

  19. May I suggest you edit it down to two or three paragraphs? Its very detailed and thorough but no
    MP will wade through a tome of that length and the complexity of many of the arguements will
    pass them by

    Tony

    Just zis Guy said:

    I am drafting a reply to send to the Legion of the Duped:

    I note that you have signed Early Day Motion no. 1783. Please be aware that it contains
    factual errors:

    "notes that every year in the UK approximately 28,000 children under the age of 16 years receive a
    serious head injury as a result of a cycling accident"

    According to the DfT's published statistics, in 2002 there were 4,809 child cyclist injuries of
    all severities, to all parts of the body, of which 594 were serious or fatal. The figure of 28,000
    "serious head injuries" is in excess of the total reported cyclist injuries, all ages, all
    severities.

    "recognises that by simply wearing a bicycle helmet 85 per cent. of such head injuries could be
    prevented"

    The authors of the study from which the 85% figure is taken have since published much lower
    estimates following criticisms of the methodology and sample used. Even with the lower numbers
    this study is not considered reliable, mainly due to sample bias (it also "proves" that helmets
    reduce leg and torso injuries). This has been documented by John Franklin
    (lesberries.co.uklesberries.co.uk), author of the advanced cycling manual Cyclecraft, published by The
    Stationery Office.

    No real-world population has ever demonstrated even one tenth of the claimed reductions in head
    injuries following introduction of a helmet law, claims which range from 16% up to the 85%
    erroneously quoted in the EDM. Most populations record a substantial drop in numbers cycling, with
    an equivalent reduction in numbers injured, leaving the injury rate the same. Some populations
    indicate a worrying rise in injury rates.

    Nor is that the only source of contra-indication. Casualty rates for cyclists and pedestrians have
    historically tracked each other closely. An investigation of these trends over twenty years, a
    period during which helmet wearing rose by up to 50% in some areas, shows no measurable
    differential. Similar studies in New York, analysing only child pedestrian and child cyclist
    casualties, reaches the same conclusion: although by the end of the study period over 40% of child
    cyclists were wearing helmets, their casualty rate had varied exactly as the pedestrian casualty
    rate. The helmets had no measurable effect.

    This is so counter-intuitive that it took me a long time to accept
    it. As a parent of young children who are keen cyclists you can imagine that I am not inclined to
    take such things on trust. It is a real puzzle, and as far as I am aware the Government has
    not yet commissioned any research to establish why it is that widespread use of cycle helmets
    consistently fails to realise not just the claimed benefits, but indeed any measurable
    benefit whatsoever.

    What is clear, though, is that embarking on a course of action when such an enormous gulf exists
    between the claimed benefits and the actual effects in real populations would be foolish. It
    demands at the very least a thorough investigation of the reasons why the claimed benefits have
    never been realised in practice - those who do not learn from their mistakes are, after all,
    doomed to repeat them.

    "calls upon her Majesty's Government to give its full support to such a proposal which would both
    save lives and stop injuries on our roads."

    BHIT admits that 90% of child cycle injuries occur off road (by implication on private land). The
    proposal would only affect those riding on the road, the vast majority of whom are in any case not
    children (one presumes that Government is not intending to force use of personal protective
    equipment by private individuals on private land, as this would set a very far-reaching precedent
    indeed).

    Road crashes are of course a concern. But cycle helmets are designed to protect in single vehicle
    crashes at speeds up to about 12mph. As soon as a motor vehicle is involved, any crash will almost
    by definition exceed the design parameters of any commercially available pedal cycle helmet. Read
    the manufacturers' disclaimers.

    So we have come from "28,000 children" via some statistics which not even their authors now
    support to a call to force primarily adult cyclists riding, for the most part, in a completely
    different environment, to wear a helmet to protect them against something it is not designed to
    protect against.

    "commends the excellent campaign of the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust to get Parliament to
    introduce legislation to enforce the wearing of helmets by all bicyclists in the UK"

    Can we really describe their work as "excellent?" Undoubtedly they mean well, but excellence
    implies very high standards and a thoroughly thought-through agenda. I do not seek to discredit
    BHIT, but I would take issue with any description of them as "excellent." For example:

    - BHIT continue to publish the 85% claim, despite the fact, of which they must by now be fully
    aware, that not even its authors now support it. This is not just misleading but actively
    dangerous: impressionable youngsters may be persuaded that they can engage in more dangerous
    behaviour than they otherwise would, and that a helmet will protect them from the consequences
    of foolishness. This is not "excellent."

    - BHIT have claimed in the press that if all children wore cycle helmets it would save the NHS £2
    billion per year. According to the Office of National Statistics the NHS spends £1.5 billion per
    year treating children under 16 for all conditions, injuries and ailments. It is not possible
    for child head injuries preventable by cycle helmets to yield BHITs claimed savings. This is not
    "excellent."

    - BHIT have claimed in the press that helmets do not deter cycling, and that the substantial
    reduction in numbers cycling in Australia post- law was due to a reduction in the legal age for
    driving by one year. This, too, is incorrect. The drop in adult cycling was around 20% (and the
    drop in teenage cycling around 45%). This is not "excellent."

    BHIT is a single-issue campaign group which has consistently said that it will have achieved its
    objective when every cyclist wears a helmet. They have never attempted to establish whether helmet
    compulsion would yield better results than, say, a programme of good quality roadcraft training in
    schools. This tunnel vision may be acceptable for a pressure group but not for a legislature. No
    crash is caused by failure to wear a helmet, and compulsion will not prevent a single crash. As
    such their campaign is wholly focused on the symptoms, introducing a "cure" which should be
    rendered entirely redundant by a successful campaign targeted on the causes of the problem. A
    cure, moreover, which is proven to carry with it at least one undesirable side-effect: substantial
    reductions in the numbers cycling.

  20. Just zis Guy said:

    I am drafting a reply to send to the Legion of the Duped:

    [snip]

    Most excellent post, which I shall refer to in drafting my own letter. One point you miss, which I
    believe to be worth making: obesity is a serious problem in children and young people today, which
    will lead to an increase in serious heart conditions and diabetes in later life. Children need more,
    not less exercise. As imposing helmets is extremely likely to reduce the numbers of children
    cycling, it's likely to increase deaths from diabetes and heart disease and it's highly likely that
    these deaths will vastly outnumber the number of lives 'saved'.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of bytes. Any opinion or meaning
    you find in it is your own creation.

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