Confused about kicking

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive:yes

On the one hand, all of the world class swimmers kick steadily when they swim the crawl. When
people post videos for us to study, all the swimmers are kicking their legs.

On the other hand, people constantly write in and say that kicking doesn't matter or it's
optional, or it has no value, etc.

Not true. Although, for varioius reasons, certain people (usually not elite athletes) have
problems with their kicking. Where it doesn't create any forward propulsion, so they just decide
they're better off letting their feet just dangle. If you want to swim sort of 'by the book' you
want to be kicking.

Quoted message said:

Yesterday, I saw a guy swimming the crawl without moving his legs at all.

He

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was moving through the water pretty well, but why would it be beneficial

to

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drag his legs like anchors behind him?

There could be several reasons...
1. there is a specific exercise (in swimming it's called a drill) that requires you to swim arms
only for a few laps. This helps strengthen the arms. In most of those people put paddles on their
hands to increase the resistance even more.
2. He was getting tired or a little bit lazy, and didn't feel like using his legs.
3. Maybe his kick doesn't work (doesn't create forward propulsion), so he was just letting his
legs dangle.

Quoted message said:

Today, I saw a guy kicking, but with his knees bent, and his butt was sinking quite a bit.

Yea, that is not "by the book" kicking. He seems to be having problems with his kick.

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A woman swam by, kicking until she turned to breathe--and then she suspended the kick while she
got some air--so her kicking was sporadically.

All of this is confusing to me, a recreational swimmer. Should we just

kick

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all the time or by some stroke count, or what?

You definately should kick all the time. The reason you see people not doing it, or doing it
sporacdically is because it's much easier said than done. If you're swimming freestyle, ideally, for
each armstroke you should make 3 beats with your feet. Think of it as a waltz... left
arm-1-2-3...Right arm-1-2-3... Kicking does not stop or pause, just keeps going sort of in sync with
your armstrokes. You'll notice it gets tiring, and can be awkward.

Your feet should be relaxed, but toes allowed to point. A lot of people don't have ankles that are
flexible enough to have their foot in a relaxed position, and have their toes point (like a
ballerina) at the same time. In that case they end up needing to use their calf muscles to point
toes. The more your toes are pointed, the more forward propulsion you'll get out of your kick
(assuming you're doing the rest of the kick correctly) Your knees should be somewhat relaxed, and
allowed to bend slightly as you kick. But, not bent a lot (like not making an L). Kicking motion
starts with the thighs and butt (and even some of the lower abs and lower back can get involved).
The lower part of your leg (knee and down) shoulld really act as the dangly part of a fin (on a
fish) which exaggerates the motion that the hips and thighs have started.

Also, there are several books aout there that explain this pretty well. Among many other places, you
can find some pretty decent info here: zoomers.netnew thekick.htmOpen ↗
zoomers.netzoomers.netOpen ↗

Happy swimming 🙂

Quoted message said:

Pat in TX

Pat said:

x-no-archive:yes

On the one hand, all of the world class swimmers kick steadily when they swim the crawl. When
people post videos for us to study, all the swimmers are kicking their legs.

On the other hand, people constantly write in and say that kicking doesn't matter or it's
optional, or it has no value, etc.

Yesterday, I saw a guy swimming the crawl without moving his legs at all. He was moving through
the water pretty well, but why would it be beneficial to drag his legs like anchors behind him?

There are two basic kicks, the six beat kick and the two beat kick. The six beat kick is the one you
mean when you say "all the swimmers are kicking their legs." The two beat kick is the one the guy
who wasn't kicking was using. With some people, it looks like they aren't kicking at all, and that
is partly true. They don't get much thrust at all from their kick, but it does serve to balance
their arm strokes, and in that sense it is very important. Long distance swimmers use this method,
and people like me who get no propulsion from their kick at all. If you can get comfortable doing
the six beat kick, it is worth the effort to learn. Some people have a lot of trouble doing it
because it must be sychronized with your arm strokes. But it isn't a requirement, so don't let
anyone make you feel like you must do it.

martin

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]... <snip>

Quoted message said:

Yesterday, I saw a guy swimming the crawl without moving his legs at all.

He

Quoted message said:

was moving through the water pretty well, but why would it be beneficial

to

Quoted message said:

drag his legs like anchors behind him?

<snip>

His legs are only anchors is they are causing drag. If the swimmer kept them in line with their body
then they would be swimming quite efficiently. Leaving out the legs leaves more energy for the arms.
If that swimmer's kick is inefficient, then they will swim faster by putting the extra energy into
their arms.

Pat left this mess on Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:11:49 -0500 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive:yes

On the one hand, all of the world class swimmers kick steadily when they swim the crawl. When
people post videos for us to study, all the swimmers are kicking their legs.

On the other hand, people constantly write in and say that kicking doesn't matter or it's optional,
or it has no value, etc.

Yesterday, I saw a guy swimming the crawl without moving his legs at all. He was moving through the
water pretty well, but why would it be beneficial to drag his legs like anchors behind him?

The large share of propulsion in the crawl is from the hands. Kicking adds a minimal amount of
lateral propulsion (else, you'd never get anywhere with a kickboard), but the main purpose of
kicking is to balance the body and streamline your legs easily.

The "hands-only" crawl is a time-honored drill designed to strengthen the shoulders and arms by
dragging the legs behind. There's a variation as someone pointed out, with a two-beat kick, but it's
also done with no kick at all, supporting the legs with the back and abdominal muscles.

Quoted message said:

Today, I saw a guy kicking, but with his knees bent, and his butt was sinking quite a bit. A woman
swam by, kicking until she turned to breathe--and then she suspended the kick while she got some
air--so her kicking was sporadically.

By not using the large muscles of the upper leg and trunk, he was not supporting his legs very
well. You see the result: his backside slings down to compensate. As for the sporadic kicker,
likely she's had issues about breathing during the stroke along the lines of walking and chewing
gum at the same time.

Quoted message said:

All of this is confusing to me, a recreational swimmer. Should we just kick all the time or by some
stroke count, or what?

Whatever works best for you, Pat. There is no one right answer, especially if you're just in it for
the work and not competitvely.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

Martin W. Smith said:

There are two basic kicks, the six beat kick and the two beat kick.

There seem also to be variations mostly dependent on breathing. Because I alternate breathe and I
benefit by a kick that will correct the displacement caused by turning my head, I instinctively kick
then. This gives me one distinct kick every three breaths, so I have a sort of 1
1/2 beat pattern, that is, one emphasized kick per three strokes. The other kicks are there, but
very small. I've often seen 4 beat kicks among efficient swimmers, 3 when the breath is taken and
one otherwise.

Ruth Kazez

rtk said:

Martin W. Smith said:

There are two basic kicks, the six beat kick and the two beat kick.

There seem also to be variations mostly dependent on breathing. Because I alternate breathe and I
benefit by a kick that will correct the displacement caused by turning my head, I instinctively
kick then. This gives me one distinct kick every three breaths, so I have a sort of 1
1/2 beat pattern, that is, one emphasized kick per three strokes. The other kicks are there, but
very small. I've often seen 4 beat kicks among efficient swimmers, 3 when the breath is taken
and one otherwise.

Ruth Kazez

It sounds like your head turn is throwing your body out of alignment. That shouldn't happen. I
suspect you are lifting your head more than turning it, but I would have to see your stroke to
say for sure.

martin

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

Martin W. Smith said:

There are two basic kicks, the six beat kick and the two beat kick.

It sounds like your head turn is throwing your body out of alignment. That shouldn't happen. I
suspect you are lifting your head more than turning it, but I would have to see your stroke to
say for sure.

A four beat kick is very common among the best swimmers. Even a minimum head turn benefits by a
compensating emphasis on the accompanying kick.

If you don't look closely, you can't see my head turn at all; I breathe into the bow wave. Obviously
if I lifted my head, there would be no need for an extra kick because that wouldn't cause any
lateral displacement of the legs.

Ruth Kazez

rtk said:

Martin W. Smith said:

There are two basic kicks, the six beat kick and the two beat kick.

It sounds like your head turn is throwing your body out of alignment. That shouldn't happen. I
suspect you are lifting your head more than turning it, but I would have to see your stroke to
say for sure.

A four beat kick is very common among the best swimmers. Even a minimum head turn benefits by a
compensating emphasis on the accompanying kick.

If you don't look closely, you can't see my head turn at all; I breathe into the bow wave.
Obviously if I lifted my head, there would be no need for an extra kick because that wouldn't
cause any lateral displacement of the legs.

Then I am surprised that you associate the compensatory movement with your breathing, and I can't
say whether it is necessary. In my case, there is none associated with my breathing. It is all
associated with my stroke, but I only do a two beat kick.

martin

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

Martin W. Smith wrote:

It is all associated with my

Quoted message said:

stroke, but I only do a two beat kick.

I've noticed quite a few alternate breathers have only a one and a half beat kick rhythm.
Fortunately, the kick can take care of itself and doesn't need to be counted. I wouldn't want an
arbitrary kick based on theory that may not apply to my particular needs.

Ruth Kazez

"Colin Priest" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]... <snip>

Quoted message said:

Yesterday, I saw a guy swimming the crawl without moving his legs at all.

He

Quoted message said:

was moving through the water pretty well, but why would it be beneficial

to

Quoted message said:

drag his legs like anchors behind him?

<snip>

If that swimmer's kick is inefficient, then they will swim faster by putting the extra energy into
their arms.

Colin, have you been paying attention to anything that goes on in this user group?

The efforts of the arms CANNOT overwhelm the energy delivery system of the heart, lungs, and blood
stream. That's because those systems were God given, or evolutionarily selected to feed the much
larger energy sink of the leg muscles. As Dr. Weisenthal has pointed out many times before, our
upper body musculature is more like turkey breast muscle, white and non-vascular, as opposed to duck
breast muscle, red and vascular and capable of the high levels of energy output necessary to fly.

Chad Carvin had a severe cardiac myopathy. That means a significant part of his heart muscle died,
and no longer pumps blood. And yet he's one of the World's greatest male distance swimmers. If he
was a runner, or a cyclist, his career would have been over.

So there's definitely energy left over to put into kicking. Kick for propulsion, kick for balance,
kick for weight loss.

There's also the evidently accepted theory now that lactate produced by the arm muscles, can be
burned by the leg muscles if the swimmer is kicking at a moderate rate. That is a rate in which the
leg muscles themselves don't produce more lactate than they can consume as fuel. The arms themselves
are very poor at using the lactate as an energy source.

So it makes absolutely no sense to drag your legs behind you and use the "extra energy" for the arms
- there's plenty of extra energy even when employing a moderate kick.

Eric

Precious,

Have YOU been paying any attention to anything that does on in this user group?

Kicking harder takes some energy away from the upper body. If your kick moves you backward, then you
are wasting energy (assuming that you want to swim fast) because you will swim slower. Just reread
the thread about kicking harder causing slower swimming, but burning more fat. Doesn't that thread
ring any bells? You have posted on it.

Talk about setting up a straw man! Show me where I used the word "overwhelm" and I might start
assigning you some credibility. Show me where I said that the efforts of the arms could overwhelm
the energy delivery system of the heart, lungs, and blood stream.

Both the upper and lower body take part of their energy from a common source - blood (sugars and
oxygen). So it makes sense that the efforts of one can have a partial effect upon the other.

All I have implied is that the efforts of the legs can take energy away from the upper arms - not
the opposite way around. The case is even simpler for those with a non-propulsive kick.

For some people it makes PERFECT SENSE to drag their legs behind them.

Colin

P.S. Next time you decide to have a go at me, think before you write.

"4precious" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Colin Priest" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yesterday, I saw a guy swimming the crawl without moving his legs at

all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He

Quoted message said:

was moving through the water pretty well, but why would it be

beneficial

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

drag his legs like anchors behind him?

<snip>

If that swimmer's kick is inefficient, then they will swim faster by putting the extra energy

into

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their arms.

Colin, have you been paying attention to anything that goes on in this user group?

The efforts of the arms CANNOT overwhelm the energy delivery system of the heart, lungs, and
blood stream. That's because those systems were God given, or evolutionarily selected to feed
the much larger energy sink of the leg muscles. As Dr. Weisenthal has pointed out many times
before, our upper body musculature is more like turkey breast muscle, white and non-vascular, as
opposed to duck breast muscle, red and vascular and capable of the high levels of energy output
necessary to fly.

Chad Carvin had a severe cardiac myopathy. That means a significant part of his heart muscle died,
and no longer pumps blood. And yet he's one of the World's greatest male distance swimmers. If he
was a runner, or a cyclist, his career would have been over.

So there's definitely energy left over to put into kicking. Kick for propulsion, kick for balance,
kick for weight loss.

There's also the evidently accepted theory now that lactate produced by the arm muscles, can be
burned by the leg muscles if the swimmer is kicking at a moderate rate. That is a rate in which
the leg muscles themselves don't produce more lactate than they can consume as fuel. The arms
themselves are very poor at using the lactate as an energy source.

So it makes absolutely no sense to drag your legs behind you and use the "extra energy" for the
arms - there's plenty of extra energy even when employing a moderate kick.

Eric