Confused but on track

You don't state what your budget is, but for steel, check out frames/bikes from Velo Orange and Soma.

FWIW. I think that people who are focused on buying a bike with Carbon Fiber frames are the ones who are confused ...

Due to having only seen the two bikes you mention in photographs, and I'm not sure if I'm confusing the particular Masi that I saw with the recent Masi Gran Criterium (it was maroon -- very nice ... however, I don't think that the frame was lugged ... I don't recall the MSRP) which you are considering, I would say that my choice would be the Raleigh Record Ace.

Now, the Record Ace that I saw a picture of last Summer (July) was WHITE, it had Ultegra components AND the frame was lugged ... its retail price was over $2000 at the time.

• I like bikes with White frames ...
  

IMO, 105 components would be better than Ultegra components which I saw because the 105 crankset uses standard 130BCD chainrings instead of those "hollow" DA-copies (I am sure you can use standard 130BCD chainrings on the Ultegra & DA cranks, but they will look odd because of the spider's sculpted arms which mate with the "hollow" chainrings on the Ultegra & DA cranks) ... besides, I would probably be reselling the Shimano shifters and/or cassette on eBay and replacing them with a set of Campagnolo shifters!?!

BTW. Another bike to use for reference (but, which I would probably pass on) is the Bianchi DOLOMITI:

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The MSRP was in the $3000 range. I'm not keen on the bend of those handlebars (a trivial matter) ... and, I don't know anything about that wheelset.

Although I have a high regard for Bianchi, for that amount of money I would rather buy a Colnago Master X-Lite OR Olmo Sintesi (re-issue) steel frame and choose the components. De Rosa also has a nice steel frameset.

KONA (?) used to make (as of a couple of years ago -- not sure about current production) a lugged steel framed Road bike ... my recollection is that the MSRP was in the $2000 range.

If I were just looking for a do-almost-everything steel Road frame, then I would probably choose the BASE model Jamis Coda (MSRP $550 -- the base model Coda is a Flat Bar bike which has cantilever brake bosses) and replace most of the components with a mix of Shimano components with Campagnolo shifters ... if my budget were tight, I would just change the handelbars to Drop bars (and, so I would choose a frame with the top tube length I would choose for a bike with Drop handlebars), the fore mentioned Campagnolo shifters, new brake calipers, and a new larger outer chainring. When convenient, I would probably change the crank & BB + rear derailleur and/or wheels.

What is your budget?

When I started looking I had in my mind spending maybe $1000-$1200. I soon realized that getting decent groupsets I would probably need to spend $1500-$2000. So I'd prefer to stay under $2000.

Steve_A: Those frames look absolutely sweet! Definitely gave me something different to think about. But I'm thinking I would definitely blow the budget going in that direction....but what a way to go!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by doctorold [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

In searching for a new bike I have some criterium: I want to go with steel frame for ride quality.

Any and all opinions will be appreciated.

I've had many a steel frame over the years, including a few custom made ones and none of them ride as nice as my Cannondale Hi-Mod carbon. Even after a double century in the high mountains it's still divinely smooth. No steel frame that I've ever ridden, including high end (OK, high end back in the 80s and 90s) steel frames from Eddy Merckx, Pinarello and Colnago rode as nice.

The softest ride I had was with an aluminum framed bike - a Vitus 979. The harshest was a custom built steel frame made from Reynolds 653.

Generalizing ride quality based upon a blind belief that materials are the be all and end all of ride quality is setting you up for future disappointment. The last time I went out bike shopping, I went out and rode anything and everything.

Pick your budget and start riding all the bikes you can get your leg over.

Swampy: I think your advice is sage. And before it's over I will probably ride a wide variety of bikes. I think the appeal of the steel framed are the semi-retro look. It's kinda like the remade Challengers and Camaros of today. Old body style with new components. If you've ever gone cruising in a classic car and stopped in small towns and had people ask you about your car....that's the sort of bike I'd like to ride. Something you don't see everyday. But at the same time, something that will give a great ride and be dependable.

doctorold: If like those frames, check out Rivendell. I think you could actually build up a Sam Hillborne for a little over $2000 (maybe, and maybe less if you shop bargains, eBay and do your own work.) Also depends on what size you need with the Sams, they have a rather strange dual-pricing arrangement. Cheers, Steve

Thanks. Will def check out Rivendell. FYI: Rode a Specialized Roubaix today! Very good bike. Didn't blow me away but a far different ride than I'm used to. Hoping to go by an LBS tomorrow that carries Cannondale, Felt, Giant, Pinarello. No telling what I'll ride there!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Generalizing ride quality based upon a blind belief that materials are the be all and end all of ride quality is setting you up for future disappointment. The last time I went out bike shopping, I went out and rode anything and everything.

Pick your budget and start riding all the bikes you can get your leg over.

Swampy speaks with wisdom.

I've loved several steel bikes, and I still have two that I ride regularly, but when I want to go long, high, or hard, I use my carbon fiber Giant. It simply does everything better except trigger green lights at intersections (not enough free electrons). And although I'm generally prejudiced against aluminum framed bikes, there is one, the moderately priced Scott Speedster S20, that I found absolutely delightful--quick handling, springy, and definitely not harsh.

Now before you get all fired up about that Roubaix, try the Tarmac that suits your budget.

At this point, my mind is wide open. There's something aesthetically pleasing about the classic look of a lugged steel frame but I am giving every "genre" of bike a fair chance. When the right bike comes along, I think I'll know it.

Maybe I should retitle this thread to Confused. There's a part of me that likes the thought of classic-type bike but I'm wondering if that's practical. There's another part of me that wants to "embrace the technology" and go CF. But then I read some very good reviews (although you should always take these with a grain of salt) with regards to aluminum frames like the Cannondale CAAD 10. My rides are getting longer and longer so comfort on the bike is key. I don't want to overbuy on the groupset but it's probably more important not to underbuy. Having ridden a couple of bikes so far I'm not seeing very noticeable differences. I imagine if I took longer test rides I may tell more differences. But as of right now, the right bike is not jumping out at me. The weather is turning nice and I want to get on something new sooner rather than later.

From what I'm reading, (or to put it another way, I've drunk the Koolaid), the Rivendell and Velo Orange steel frames are very comfortable for long rides. You can build them up with the components of your choice; and either should last a lifetime. I realize that you don't find these in most of your local bike shops (LBS). But given your contemplation, I think you owe it to yourself to find a way to check them out. If you care to share, where are you located?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Steve_A [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

From what I'm reading, (or to put it another way, I've drunk the Koolaid), the Rivendell and Velo Orange steel frames are very comfortable for long rides. You can build them up with the components of your choice; and either should last a lifetime. I realize that you don't find these in most of your local bike shops (LBS). But given your contemplation, I think you owe it to yourself to find a way to check them out. If you care to share, where are you located?

North Carolina

I have looked at these online including the Somas and frankly, they have tremendous appeal. But are they practical? And to be so nice, I might be hesitant to ride the bike in poor conditions, much like I am with my classic cars I've owned. I also think they would be very pricey. Rivendell has a sample invoice of a bike they built with what i would call a fair mix of components (some good, some cheap) and it came out to $3000. The type of components I would want to use would run the price up a fair bit higher. I'm not ready to put that kind of money in my bike (granted, the Rivendell is the most expensive frame). That's why my original idea of a Masi, Raleigh or even a Bianchi modern steel bike was a more cost effective alternative. Classic looks, modern components, lower cost.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by doctorold [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Maybe I should retitle this thread to Confused. There's a part of me that likes the thought of classic-type bike but I'm wondering if that's practical. There's another part of me that wants to "embrace the technology" and go CF. But then I read some very good reviews (although you should always take these with a grain of salt) with regards to aluminum frames like the Cannondale CAAD 10. My rides are getting longer and longer so comfort on the bike is key. I don't want to overbuy on the groupset but it's probably more important not to underbuy. Having ridden a couple of bikes so far I'm not seeing very noticeable differences. I imagine if I took longer test rides I may tell more differences. But as of right now, the right bike is not jumping out at me. The weather is turning nice and I want to get on something new sooner rather than later.

FWIW. I think that ONE thing that you may need to do is to fix in your own mind what you (for the moment) consider to be the ideal bike -- "ideal" in the Platonic sense of logos & l'idée.

Without knowing it at the time that I bought my c1981 Fuji frameset, I now realize that my benchmark bike would probably be a 1961 MASI Special -- not because it is a MASI, but because as soon as I saw pics of this bike I realized it was probably the prototype for a lot of 70s & early-80s vintage FUJI frames.

• 70s vintage Fuji, Nishiki, and San Rensho were three of the many exceptional Japanese frames marques which were available.
  

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By my reckoning, the 1961 MASI has 72º head tube & seat tube angles ... typical for the time.

Have you considered buying a vintage frame and retrofitting it with contemporary components?

• it may take some patience to find the right vintage frame, but if you ride a 57cm frame which seems to be the most common size then you may be able to find a sweet frame which will allow you to build up your bike well within your budget
  

BTW, Here's my mid-80s OLMO which would probably look even better if I still had its the steel fork:

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And, here's someone else's MERCKX with more contemporary components:

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What size frame do you ride?

There was a shop in NC called Renaissance Bicycles, that not only sold Rivendell, but did what alfeng is proposing: fitted vintage frames with modern components. Sadly, when I last checked their site, it said that they had closed. Not that they were the only shop that does this, or that you can't do it your self. You can still see some of their work in the website, if it's up. I was going to say that the "typical" build on the Rivendell site for the Sam is a bit high; but if you want higher-end components, then yes yours could be more. I think that this bike and others like it are very practical in terms of riding versatility. But I see your point of not wanting to ride it in the rain, etc. But you can, it won't hurt it. I may be reluctant to leave it locked in front of the supermarket!

I've had a small epiphany today. I think I'm going to go with a "modern" bike as my regular rider. I'm going to embrace the technology. Then I think I will start looking for a deal on a "classic" frame and slowly build up a vintage-type road bike, looking for deals on parts along the way. I'll probably make it like my old classic cars...something I will tinker with and ride on special occasions or an occasional tour. Getting it put together will be a great education for me. In the meantime I will be riding something that fits my needs right away. On that note, I visited another local bike shop today that supposedly carried Cannondale, Felt, Raleigh, etc. The person I spoke with asked me only one question about what i was looking for and proceeded to show me a mid-level, aluminum Giant. I inquired about the other bikes but he was intent on showing me a couple of Giants. Never asked me about what kind of riding I do. And when I asked questions he gave me some rote, stereotypical responses that made me feel he knew little about the bikes he was selling. I had to push to get him to show me or talk about the other brands of bikes they carried (which frankly, were very few in number). My experience definitely didn't make me brim with confidence about this being a good place to purchase a machine. Onward!

doctorold, That sounds like a good plan for you. I know you will get a lot of advice here on both bikes. I've mentioned Velo Orange before, but remember to check them out when you're looking for parts for your classic; they carry their own line and they are adding new items all the time. They also carry established lines, like Sugino cranks. Have fun and keep posting about your bikes.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by doctorold [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I've had a small epiphany today. I think I'm going to go with a "modern" bike as my regular rider. I'm going to embrace the technology. Then I think I will start looking for a deal on a "classic" frame and slowly build up a vintage-type road bike, looking for deals on parts along the way. I'll probably make it like my old classic cars...something I will tinker with and ride on special occasions or an occasional tour. Getting it put together will be a great education for me. In the meantime I will be riding something that fits my needs right away. On that note, I visited another local bike shop today that supposedly carried Cannondale, Felt, Raleigh, etc. The person I spoke with asked me only one question about what i was looking for and proceeded to show me a mid-level, aluminum Giant. I inquired about the other bikes but he was intent on showing me a couple of Giants. Never asked me about what kind of riding I do. And when I asked questions he gave me some rote, stereotypical responses that made me feel he knew little about the bikes he was selling. I had to push to get him to show me or talk about the other brands of bikes they carried (which frankly, were very few in number). My experience definitely didn't make me brim with confidence about this being a good place to purchase a machine. Onward!

Find yourself a different LBS! Not only should they ask you about what kind of riding you intend to to do and any goals that you have in mind, but they should also tell you what they will do for you before your purchase such as fitting you, and then they should let you know what they will do to support you after your purchase such as warranty service and good customer discounts on accessories.

If you are like me, you'll ride your modern bike until you get your project bike finished, and then the modern bike will pretty much sit around collecting dust. Also, if you are like me, you won't be satisfied with one restored bike and you will get another or six. My modern bike, a poor 2003 Raliegh Competition is my second least ridden bike. The least ridden is a fully restored 1984 Raleigh with Shimano 500EX components on it and I don't ride it much because good vintage 500EX components are difficult to find and I want to limit the wear on what I have. But the other four are ridden on a regular basis depending upon my preference for the ride ahead.

I definitely do not plan on going back to the one LBS. I found one shop the other day that I believe to be the one I want to deal with. They took time to get to know what my needs and wants are and walked me through variety of options. I plan to go back in the next couple of days to get fitted. I did find one shop today though that was decent. The guy there was knowledgeable but their shop had very few bikes. It seems they deplete their inventory in the late fall to make room for training classes during the winter. They will start restocking in the next few weeks as the weather is warming here. They did have one bike leftover from 2010 that I was not familiar with. Took it for a spin. Nice. And for the price it was a good option. But I'm going back to the one shop I spoke of before and see what we can get into. They sell Bianchi, Scott, and Pinarello. I think I'll be able to find something that I like and works well. Very excited!

BTW. Do you currently have a bike that you rode in the past, or recently?

If so, what are its general specs -- frame material, size (top tube length), current components, YOUR height ...

I'm asking because YOU (as in, anyone) can readily make changes to almost ANY BIKE with contemporary components which you could-or-will probably be using on your future bike(s) BECAUSE most ready-to-ride bikes come with Shimano components AND by my reckoning you will eventually want to use Campagnolo shifters ... really ... so, whatever you buy for your current bike doesn't have to be lost in a black hole when you venture forth with any of your other bike acquisitions.