Converting from Quill Stem to Threadless

On Fri, 04 May 2007 10:23:21 -0400, Tom Nakashima <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets,
his articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem btw,
and haven't thought of converting yet.
One of the statements caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want
to answer this one.

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most noticeable
in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid, especially when
accelerating or climbing hills standing."

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?
I can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame stiffness.

Link to the article:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html
-tom

I went from a Trek (glued aluminum frame) with quill stem to a LeMond
(welded steel frame) with threadless and can't honestly say I noticed a
difference in stiffness. If anything, I'd consider the LeMond less
stiff. I also performed the same "upgrade" with mountain bikes and didn't
really notice an appreciable difference.

Granted, you're doing something different, in that you're solely changing
the stem system. I don't see how this can affect the rigidity that much,
but I've been wrong before.

--
Bob in CT

Tom Nakashima said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets,
his articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem btw,
and haven't thought of converting yet.
One of the statements caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want
to answer this one.

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most noticeable
in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid, especially when
accelerating or climbing hills standing."

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?

Huh? You are changing the headset, fork, and stem. Frame stays the
same. If you had a large frame before, you will have a large frame
after.

I'm guessing this perceived extra rigidity is due to a couple factors.

1. The quill stem has a 7/8" outside diameter vertical quill that is
now replaced with the top couple inches of 1" or 1.125" outside
diameter fork steerer. Quill stem would be steel or aluminum. Fork
steerer would be steel, aluminum, or carbon.

2. Quill stem wedges the bottom inch of the quill a couple inches
below the headset inside the fork steerer. This is what connects the
stem to the fork/bike. Threadless has about a 1.5" tall clamp that
clamps around the outside of the fork steerer a couple inches above
the headset.

3. With a quill stem you always have the vertical portion of the
quill no matter how low or high you set it. The wedge of the quill
just slides lower inside the fork steerer and the vertical 2" of 7/8"
diameter quill always remains. Quill stems are mainly 73 or 90
degrees. With threadless you can easily turn the stem upside down and
remove spacers so the clamp is right on top of the headset. No
spacers. The lever is not as tall at the point where you are pulling
on the bars and this force is being transferred to the fork steerer.

On paper it would seem there is a night and day difference with
rigidity between quill stems and threadless. But on my experience
with both types of stems and riding the bikes from day to day, its all
perception and belief when riding.

Quoted message said:

I can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame stiffness.

Link to the article:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets, his
articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem BTW,
and haven't thought of converting yet. One of the statements caught
my eye, and I'm sure he might want to answer this one.

Quoted message said:

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most
noticeable in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid,
especially when accelerating or climbing hills standing."

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size? I
can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame stiffness.

Quoted message said:

Link to the article:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

You must note the words "seems to become" and the real effect is that
the bars don't twist and jaw under load. The flexibility is also from
quill stems not fitting tightly into the steer tube. It is this
motion that pumps sweat and rain into the interface causing stems to
oxidize permanently into the steer tube.

Beyond that, newer quill stems use a slant wedge rather than the old
conical spreader. The slant wedge is insufficiently resistant to
rotation and on a couple of occasions unscrewed my stem bolt, the
first time leaving me with freely rotating bars to ride no-hands to a
gas station (not realizing my CPR-9 tool hat the correct Allen key).

This is a real solution to a real problem. I have cut off aluminum
stems often enough over the years to not want a quill stem. My last
one was a steel stem with a slant wedge retainer.

Jobst Brandt

Tom Nakashima said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets,
his articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem btw,
and haven't thought of converting yet.
One of the statements caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want
to answer this one.

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most noticeable
in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid, especially when
accelerating or climbing hills standing."

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?
I can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame stiffness.

Link to the article:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html
-tom

I've never heard anyone describe a steel quill stem as being too
flexy. Sure, there are flexible forged aluminum stems out there like
the Deda Murex, or the 3ttt Status. But steel stems by Salsa, Ritchey,
ITM, etc. are plenty stiff. I ride a 3ttt Pro Chrome Strada, which is
made from TIG-welded Columbus steel tubing. It is much stiffer than
any forged aluminum quill stem I have ridden, and about as rigid a
stem as I would want.

Mike Krueger said:

I've never heard anyone describe a steel quill stem as being too
flexy. Sure, there are flexible forged aluminum stems out there like
the Deda Murex, or the 3ttt Status. But steel stems by Salsa, Ritchey,
ITM, etc. are plenty stiff. I ride a 3ttt Pro Chrome Strada, which is
made from TIG-welded Columbus steel tubing. It is much stiffer than
any forged aluminum quill stem I have ridden, and about as rigid a
stem as I would want.

Doesn't stiffer mean that you lose the "shock absorber" effect of a
little bit of flex in an alloy quill? I'd think that would be a
feature unless you are racing.

email hidden said:

Tom Nakashima said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets,
his articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem btw,
and haven't thought of converting yet.
One of the statements caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want
to answer this one.

Quoted message said:

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most noticeable
in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid, especially when
accelerating or climbing hills standing."

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?

Huh? You are changing the headset, fork, and stem. Frame stays the
same. If you had a large frame before, you will have a large frame
after.

I'm guessing this perceived extra rigidity is due to a couple factors.

1. The quill stem has a 7/8" outside diameter vertical quill that is
now replaced with the top couple inches of 1" or 1.125" outside
diameter fork steerer. Quill stem would be steel or aluminum. Fork
steerer would be steel, aluminum, or carbon.

2. Quill stem wedges the bottom inch of the quill a couple inches
below the headset inside the fork steerer. This is what connects the
stem to the fork/bike. Threadless has about a 1.5" tall clamp that
clamps around the outside of the fork steerer a couple inches above
the headset.

3. With a quill stem you always have the vertical portion of the
quill no matter how low or high you set it. The wedge of the quill
just slides lower inside the fork steerer and the vertical 2" of 7/8"
diameter quill always remains. Quill stems are mainly 73 or 90
degrees. With threadless you can easily turn the stem upside down and
remove spacers so the clamp is right on top of the headset. No
spacers. The lever is not as tall at the point where you are pulling
on the bars and this force is being transferred to the fork steerer.

On paper it would seem there is a night and day difference with
rigidity between quill stems and threadless.

And certain posters seem to base their opinions on theory, not
practice. They often state those opinions as "fact".

Quoted message said:

But on my experience
with both types of stems and riding the bikes from day to day, its all
perception and belief when riding.

Exactly. Expectation effects based on theory can lead some to all
sorts of "conclusions".

Tom Nakashima said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets,
his articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem btw,
and haven't thought of converting yet.
One of the statements caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want
to answer this one.

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most noticeable
in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid, especially when
accelerating or climbing hills standing."

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?
I can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame stiffness.

Link to the article:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

I think it can - as the stem can be bigger and directly attached over a
huge area right on the column itself.
I say "can" not "is" because traditional quills can be stiff and modern
AH systems can be screwed up, both in design and in execution.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Someone at Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

On paper it would seem there is a night and day difference with
rigidity between quill stems and threadless.

Quoted message said:

And certain posters seem to base their opinions on theory, not
practice. They often state those opinions as "fact".

Oh! What have you got against engineering? I think there should be
more of it in the bicycle industry instead of all the field testing
that is done with unsuspecting users.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But on my experience with both types of stems and riding the bikes
from day to day, its all perception and belief when riding.

Quoted message said:

Exactly. Expectation effects based on theory can lead some to all
sorts of "conclusions".

If you have access to a bicycle with a 120mm Cinelli or TTT quill stem
and put force on the bars up an down on either end, you can make the
comparison yourself. A Cinelli quill stem has a ~0.88" dia. neck,
while a Ritchey stem has a 1.23" dia. That makes the Ritchey more
than 2.5 times as rigid in torsion, aside from not having the wiggle
of the quill stem in the steer tube.

That is a noticeable difference for my bicycle.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Someone at Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

On paper it would seem there is a night and day difference with
rigidity between quill stems and threadless.

And certain posters seem to base their opinions on theory, not
practice. They often state those opinions as "fact".

Oh! What have you got against engineering?

Nothing at all, Jobst. But, I must ask, what do you have against
actual experience? I still recall, vividly, your diatribes against a
certain brake design which, you *finally* admitted, you had only
actually used in one short ride around town. IOW, your howlings about
that brake's pitfalls when going down a steep hill were based on
*theory* only. Yet, you were dismissive of my actual experience, over
a period of many years, of *actually using* those brakes. I do not
wish to re-hash that brake debate, and I mention this only as a
classic example of your notorious MO on these boards.

Quoted message said:

I think there should be
more of it in the bicycle industry instead of all the field testing
that is done with unsuspecting users.

Being in favor of more nad better engineering and of less myth and
folklore should not be confused with forming opinions strictly from
the theoretical and then stating those opinions as facts.

still me said:

Mike Krueger said:

I've never heard anyone describe a steel quill stem as being too
flexy. Sure, there are flexible forged aluminum stems out there like
the Deda Murex, or the 3ttt Status. But steel stems by Salsa, Ritchey,
ITM, etc. are plenty stiff. I ride a 3ttt Pro Chrome Strada, which is
made from TIG-welded Columbus steel tubing. It is much stiffer than
any forged aluminum quill stem I have ridden, and about as rigid a
stem as I would want.

Doesn't stiffer mean that you lose the "shock absorber" effect of a
little bit of flex in an alloy quill? I'd think that would be a
feature unless you are racing.

The premise of this thread was that threadless stems are stiffer than
quill stems, that being advantageous. I pointed out that there are
extra-stiff qull stems still available as well.
I get plenty of shock absorbtion through my 24mm wide sewup tires run
at 100 front/115 rear mounted on box-section tubular rims with double-
butted spokes, carbon fork, titanium frame, suspended TurboMatic
saddle, and padded bar tape and gloves. However, I want the steering
components to be stiff, so that the bike goes where I point it,
especially on a 50 mph, bumpy rough road descent with switchbacks and
off-camber turns. A steel quill stem is up to the task.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets, his
articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem BTW,
and haven't thought of converting yet. One of the statements caught
my eye, and I'm sure he might want to answer this one.

Quoted message said:

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most
noticeable in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid,
especially when accelerating or climbing hills standing."

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size? I
can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame stiffness.

Quoted message said:

Link to the article:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

You must note the words "seems to become" and the real effect is that
the bars don't twist and jaw under load. The flexibility is also from
quill stems not fitting tightly into the steer tube. It is this
motion that pumps sweat and rain into the interface causing stems to
oxidize permanently into the steer tube.

Beyond that, newer quill stems use a slant wedge rather than the old
conical spreader. The slant wedge is insufficiently resistant to
rotation and on a couple of occasions unscrewed my stem bolt, the
first time leaving me with freely rotating bars to ride no-hands to a
gas station (not realizing my CPR-9 tool hat the correct Allen key).

This is a real solution to a real problem. I have cut off aluminum
stems often enough over the years to not want a quill stem. My last
one was a steel stem with a slant wedge retainer.

Jobst Brandt

I'm still using and have had good luck with the conical spreader on my
Cinelli 1A quill stem. I've only seen one incident where the steering-
tube had rusted enough for a quill stem to brake loose, neglect from the
user.

You just caught my attention when I read your post about the threadless
headset and the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid.
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets, his
articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem BTW,
and haven't thought of converting yet. One of the statements
caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want to answer this one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most
noticeable in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid,
especially when accelerating or climbing hills standing."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?
I can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame
stiffness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Link to the article:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You must note the words "seems to become" and the real effect is
that the bars don't twist and jaw under load. The flexibility is
also from quill stems not fitting tightly into the steer tube. It
is this motion that pumps sweat and rain into the interface causing
stems to oxidize permanently into the steer tube.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Beyond that, newer quill stems use a slant wedge rather than the
old conical spreader. The slant wedge is insufficiently resistant
to rotation and on a couple of occasions unscrewed my stem bolt,
the first time leaving me with freely rotating bars to ride
no-hands to a gas station (not realizing my CPR-9 tool hat the
correct Allen key).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a real solution to a real problem. I have cut off aluminum
stems often enough over the years to not want a quill stem. My
last one was a steel stem with a slant wedge retainer.

Quoted message said:

I'm still using and have had good luck with the conical spreader on
my Cinelli 1A quill stem. I've only seen one incident where the
steering- tube had rusted enough for a quill stem to brake loose,
neglect from the user.

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem attachment
when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to put a bulge in
the steer tube. Talk to your local frame builder who has removed
these disasters.

Quoted message said:

You just caught my attention when I read your post about the
threadless headset and the entire bicycle seems to become more
rigid.

That occurs because this is the most elastic part with which the rider
operates the bicycle and the source is twofold. The stem is attached
only at its lower end, and its neck is many times more torsionally
elastic than a good hollow stem clamped to the outside of the steer
tube.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

> I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets, his
> articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem BTW,
> and haven't thought of converting yet. One of the statements
> caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want to answer this one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most
> noticeable in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid,
> especially when accelerating or climbing hills standing."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?
> I can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame
> stiffness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Link to the article:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You must note the words "seems to become" and the real effect is
that the bars don't twist and jaw under load. The flexibility is
also from quill stems not fitting tightly into the steer tube. It
is this motion that pumps sweat and rain into the interface causing
stems to oxidize permanently into the steer tube.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Beyond that, newer quill stems use a slant wedge rather than the
old conical spreader. The slant wedge is insufficiently resistant
to rotation and on a couple of occasions unscrewed my stem bolt,
the first time leaving me with freely rotating bars to ride
no-hands to a gas station (not realizing my CPR-9 tool hat the
correct Allen key).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a real solution to a real problem. I have cut off aluminum
stems often enough over the years to not want a quill stem. My
last one was a steel stem with a slant wedge retainer.

Quoted message said:

I'm still using and have had good luck with the conical spreader on
my Cinelli 1A quill stem. I've only seen one incident where the
steering- tube had rusted enough for a quill stem to brake loose,
neglect from the user.

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem attachment
when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to put a bulge in
the steer tube. Talk to your local frame builder who has removed
these disasters.

Quoted message said:

You just caught my attention when I read your post about the
threadless headset and the entire bicycle seems to become more
rigid.

That occurs because this is the most elastic part with which the rider
operates the bicycle and the source is twofold. The stem is attached
only at its lower end, and its neck is many times more torsionally
elastic than a good hollow stem clamped to the outside of the steer
tube.

Jobst Brandt

I did speak to a frame builder, said basically the same thing you did.
He said he would have to put on a new steering column. I would need to
purchase a new threadless headset, spacers, stem, handlebars (still using
the Cinelli 26.4mm). Not to mention my labor time of transfer, as I would
do most of the work myself. I did ask him about frame stiffness, but he
didn't think it made much of a difference. He told me he wouldn't change
to a threadless headset unless there was a potential failure.

I also asked him about the bulge in the steering column. He told me since
I have a surface plate, dial indicators, and a collet-block, to take the
fork
off and check for runout, and signs of weakness in the column. He said if
there isn't a problem, slap it together and ride.

He did mention that he did repairs on a few steering columns because
when cyclist insert their quill stems, they don't go deep enough and end up
catching the threaded area of the column, which usually breaks there.
-tom

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

> I was reading Brandt's article (NEW) on Threadless Headsets, his
> articles I haven't seen before. I'm still riding a quill stem BTW,
> and haven't thought of converting yet. One of the statements
> caught my eye, and I'm sure he might want to answer this one.
> "When converting from a quill stem, the improvement is most
> noticeable in that the entire bicycle seems to become more rigid,
> especially when accelerating or climbing hills standing."
> I was wondering if this was due because of the large frame size?
> I can't see how a headset can make a difference in frame
> stiffness.
> Link to the article:
>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/threadless-headset.html
You must note the words "seems to become" and the real effect is
that the bars don't twist and jaw under load. The flexibility is
also from quill stems not fitting tightly into the steer tube. It
is this motion that pumps sweat and rain into the interface causing
stems to oxidize permanently into the steer tube.
Beyond that, newer quill stems use a slant wedge rather than the
old conical spreader. The slant wedge is insufficiently resistant
to rotation and on a couple of occasions unscrewed my stem bolt,
the first time leaving me with freely rotating bars to ride
no-hands to a gas station (not realizing my CPR-9 tool hat the
correct Allen key).
This is a real solution to a real problem. I have cut off aluminum
stems often enough over the years to not want a quill stem. My
last one was a steel stem with a slant wedge retainer.

I'm still using and have had good luck with the conical spreader on
my Cinelli 1A quill stem. I've only seen one incident where the
steering- tube had rusted enough for a quill stem to brake loose,
neglect from the user.

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem attachment
when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to put a bulge in
the steer tube.

But can't this be easily eliminated by just undoing the quill bolt in
your quill stem once a year with a 6mm Allen key and getting a stick
of wood and smacking the top of the Allen key to loosen the cone or
wedge in the fork steerer. Last night I was adjusting my saddle a
tiny bit and decided to also adjust the stem a tiny bit. Bars were
not as perfectly straight ahead as I thought they should be. So I got
out the 6mm Allen key and undid the quill bolt and cone and pulled the
quill up as far as the cables would allow and applied grease to the
quill and then put it back to the right height and tried to get it to
point straight ahead. Did not take much time or effort. Longest time
was spent looking for the wooden club I usually use for this
operation. Had to use a substitute when I gave up on finding the
official club.

I would also advise people to undo their seatpost clamps/bolts once or
more a year and move the seatpost up and down and side to side to be
sure it does not corrode in place. Maybe even pull the seatpost
completely out and regrease it and put it back in. Just like with
quill stems. Quick and easy and eliminates the possibility of things
corroding together.

Talk to your local frame builder who has removed

Quoted message said:

these disasters.

Quoted message said:

You just caught my attention when I read your post about the
threadless headset and the entire bicycle seems to become more
rigid.

That occurs because this is the most elastic part with which the rider
operates the bicycle and the source is twofold. The stem is attached
only at its lower end, and its neck is many times more torsionally
elastic than a good hollow stem clamped to the outside of the steer
tube.

Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima writes:

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem attachment
when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to put a bulge in
the steer tube.

Quoted message said:

But can't this be easily eliminated by just undoing the quill bolt in
your quill stem once a year with a 6mm Allen key and getting a stick
of wood and smacking the top of the Allen key to loosen the cone or
wedge in the fork steerer.

I think what Brandt is saying is that over time when inserting the quill
stem
at the same depth in the steering column, a bulge could occur over time.
I have heard of this happening, but never seen a column with a bulge.
To me, one would have to really torque the steel wedge or conical cone
to get the steel column to distort a bulge. A lot depends on the thickness
of the column tubing.
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem attachment
when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to put a bulge in
the steer tube.

But can't this be easily eliminated by just undoing the quill bolt in
your quill stem once a year with a 6mm Allen key and getting a stick
of wood and smacking the top of the Allen key to loosen the cone or
wedge in the fork steerer.

I think what Brandt is saying is that over time when inserting the quill
stem
at the same depth in the steering column, a bulge could occur over time.
I have heard of this happening, but never seen a column with a bulge.
To me, one would have to really torque the steel wedge or conical cone
to get the steel column to distort a bulge. A lot depends on the thickness
of the column tubing.
-tom

No. What Mr. Brandt is saying is:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem attachment
when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to put a bulge in
the steer tube.

Mr. Brandt is talking about corrosion welding the quill stem inside
the steerer. Eliminated by not allwoing the quill to weld inside the
steerer by just pulling it out once or twice a year and regreasing
it. The beginning weld is broken.

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> This is a real solution to a real problem. I have cut off
> aluminum stems often enough over the years to not want a quill
> stem. My last one was a steel stem with a slant wedge retainer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm still using and have had good luck with the conical spreader
on my Cinelli 1A quill stem. I've only seen one incident where
the steering- tube had rusted enough for a quill stem to brake
loose, neglect from the user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem
attachment when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to
put a bulge in the steer tube. Talk to your local frame builder
who has removed these disasters.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You just caught my attention when I read your post about the
threadless headset and the entire bicycle seems to become more
rigid.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That occurs because this is the most elastic part with which the
rider operates the bicycle and the source is twofold. The stem is
attached only at its lower end, and its neck is many times more
torsionally elastic than a good hollow stem clamped to the outside
of the steer tube.

Quoted message said:

I did speak to a frame builder, said basically the same thing you
did. He said he would have to put on a new steering column. I
would need to purchase a new threadless headset, spacers, stem,
handlebars (still using the Cinelli 26.4mm). Not to mention my labor
time of transfer, as I would do most of the work myself. I did ask
him about frame stiffness, but he didn't think it made much of a
difference. He told me he wouldn't change to a threadless headset
unless there was a potential failure.

It doesn't change the stiffness of the frame, only the rigidity of
handlebars to frame. As I said, It is a striking difference if you
change nothing else. It was an opportunity to get a new fork with
longer steertube and to convert my threaded head bearing to a
threadless one by turning the ID and cutting a taper in the old
octagonal top part.

Quoted message said:

I also asked him about the bulge in the steering column. He told me
since I have a surface plate, dial indicators, and a collet-block,
to take the fork off and check for runout, and signs of weakness in
the column. He said if there isn't a problem, slap it together and
ride.

You can't "see" weakness. Besides, you need a longer and threadless
steertube.

Quoted message said:

He did mention that he did repairs on a few steering columns because
when cyclist insert their quill stems, they don't go deep enough and
end up catching the threaded area of the column, which usually
breaks there.

All my failures were plenty deep and bulged the steer tube. I still
have the parts lying around.

Jobst Brandt

Russell Seaton said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem
attachment when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to
put a bulge in the steer tube.

Quoted message said:

But can't this be easily eliminated by just undoing the quill bolt
in your quill stem once a year with a 6mm Allen key and getting a
stick of wood and smacking the top of the Allen key to loosen the
cone or wedge in the fork steerer. Last night I was adjusting my
saddle a tiny bit and decided to also adjust the stem a tiny bit.
Bars were not as perfectly straight ahead as I thought they should
be. So I got out the 6mm Allen key and undid the quill bolt and
cone and pulled the quill up as far as the cables would allow and
applied grease to the quill and then put it back to the right height
and tried to get it to point straight ahead. Did not take much time
or effort. Longest time was spent looking for the wooden club I
usually use for this operation. Had to use a substitute when I gave
up on finding the official club.

Once a year is at times not often enough. Besides, fretting removes
all grease or oil from the stem/steertube interface after which
corrosion takes place fairly fast. Been there, done that.

Quoted message said:

I would also advise people to undo their seatpost clamps/bolts once
or more a year and move the seatpost up and down and side to side to
be sure it does not corrode in place. Maybe even pull the seatpost
completely out and regrease it and put it back in. Just like with
quill stems. Quick and easy and eliminates the possibility of
things corroding together.

Seat post clamp is not a problem because it does not fret. It is a
relatively low pressure interface in which grease stays put,
especially if not open cavity exists where water can intrude. Seat
posts generally present no problem, at least not in more than 50 years
of my experience.

Jobst Brandt

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is not stem failure but rather permanent stem
attachment when the aluminum corrodes and often does so enough to
put a bulge in the steer tube.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But can't this be easily eliminated by just undoing the quill bolt
in your quill stem once a year with a 6mm Allen key and getting a
stick of wood and smacking the top of the Allen key to loosen the
cone or wedge in the fork steerer.

Quoted message said:

I think what Brandt is saying is that over time when inserting the
quill stem at the same depth in the steering column, a bulge could
occur over time. I have heard of this happening, but never seen a
column with a bulge. To me, one would have to really torque the
steel wedge or conical cone to get the steel column to distort a
bulge. A lot depends on the thickness of the column tubing.

Please don't interpret what I said. Corrosion of aluminum is at least
twice the size of the metal from which it comes and expands the
steertube. It does this fairly rapidly once the action begins. It is
not from the stem expander but caused by oxidized aluminum. When I
changed to a steel stem, its attachment loosened because it had a
slant wedge. Slant wedges yo-yo back and forth under handlebar force
and unscrew the expander bolt.

Get a threadless steertube if you ride much!

Jobst Brandt