Crank length and hill climbs

It sounds like you should be good with 150s. I switched from 170s to
150s on my MUni, and have been doing fine on uphills, it's really the
downhills that kill ya'.

--
kerosian

I used to get high on life, until I built up a tolerance, so now I
unicycle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
kerosian's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/13944
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

I've been cokering for only about three weeks, I started with 150mm
cranks and had those for two weeks. There were certain hills I couldn't
climb and some longer not quite as steep hills which posed problems.
The past week I've been riding -a lot- with 125mm cranks and I'm able
to conquer both the steep and the long hills now which posed problems
on the 150s. With having said that, my speed, technique and strength
have all improved. I suspect similar results for you and encourage you
to give it a shot with the 150s.

--
Brian O.

mscalisi said:

We only need one 36" rim, one that doesn't suck. A properly sized KH rim
(like the 29er only larger) would be awesome.

'ProjectUNI' (http://www.otherworldsociety.org/projectuni) - The
Unicyclist PC Game - In Early Development.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian O.'s Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/10744
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Are there any times during the climb with the 165s that you felt your
speed was being cadence limited? Meaning that you could have gone
faster if you could only spin the pedals faster for that section of the
climb?

My comfortable max pedaling cadence with 170s on my Coker for climbing
is right around 100 rpm. That translates to about 10 miles/hr on the
Coker. Faster than that and the long cranks feel like they're slowing
me down as I could spin shorter cranks more efficiently.

Your average speed on the Whiteface climb is about 5.6 mph. That's
maintaining an average cadence of under 70 rpm on a 29er by my rough
calculations. That's a nice comfortable climbing cadence with long
cranks.

If you're comfortable with climbing efficiently with long cranks those
speeds on the climb are not cadence limited. So I doubt the long
cranks are slowing you down due to cadence.

So the question becomes are you able to pedal the 150s more efficiently
while climbing so that you save energy and thus can go faster? Do you
think you'll be able to pedal 150s while remaining seated for the fast
majority of the climb? Having to stand on the pedals slows the cadence
down (and thus slows the unicycle down) and uses more energy. So being
able to stay seated with longer cranks and just spin them can end up
faster than going with shorter cranks where you have to stand on the
pedals more often.

When I go for a hill climb on the Coker I use 170s. For a pure hill
climb the 170s are not slowing me down since I'm not fit enough to be
doing 10+ mph going up long hill climb grades. And I'm able to stay
seated for the climb and just sit and spin my way to the top of the
climb.

--
john_childs

john_childs (att) hotmail (dott) com
Team Never Wash Your Muni
Gallery: http://gallery.unicyclist.com/john_childs
'Unicycling Bookmark List' (http://backcountry.unicyclist.com/) ::
'World Clock' (http://tinyurl.com/2blym3)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
john_childs's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/449
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

One of the primary problems that Ben and Mike had at Mount Washington
was dead/cramping/seizing-up quads, forcing them to walk at times. I
see this as too much exertion of strength. To me, it might be better
to describe larger circles with less force per degree. This would
allow you to trade system fitness for leg strength.

This approach argues for smaller wheels and longer cranks. Lower your
gear and increase your leverage to shift the load to your
cardiovascular system away from your quads. If the road surface
allows, raise your seat and try to rest more of your weight on it.

Secondary complications include choice of tire, your leg dimensions,
the road surface characteristics, and the like.

One of the reasons Lance Armstrong did so well was just that -- using a
lower gear and spinning faster. He could go the same speed but had a
lot more left at the top of the hill.

There are lots of lower-level energy transfer arguments that support
this view.

Since your big thing is being light and system-fit from frisbee et al,
to me this would be the best approach for you. You will need to
practice spinning at higher revs with longer cranks to be effective
with them.

Don't think of using longer cranks as a baby thing or whatever. Just
choose the right tool for the job, and off you go!

--
U-Turn

Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.
-- Dave Stockton
------------------------------------------------------------------------
U-Turn's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/691
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

The last time I did Mount Diablo, I did it on a 29er with 125mm cranks,
after using 150mm for my previous attempts. I beat my previous fastest
time by five minutes, and was the only one in the group to make it up
the extremely steep (14%) bit at the top.

Diablo sounds a little less steep than Whiteface; it's something like
11 miles of climb for 3300 meters. But I wouldn't worry about the
shorter cranks; if you're trained up with them, you'll do fine.

--
tholub
------------------------------------------------------------------------
tholub's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/804
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

My main concern this year is there's competition. I'm one of at least 5
unis, as opposed to 2005 and 2006 when there was just me. Also,
everybody entered is strong and at least 3 of us are pretty sure we're
going to win the uni category.

tholub said:

...Diablo sounds a little less steep than Whiteface; it's something like
11 miles of climb for 3300 meters. ...

Er..3300 -feet -I assume you meant? So you spun the shorter cranks a
bit faster. Hmm.

u-turn said:

One of the primary problems that Ben and Mike had at Mount Washington
was dead/cramping/seizing-up quads, forcing them to walk at times. I
see this as too much exertion of strength. To me, it might be better to
describe larger circles with less force per degree. This would allow
you to trade system fitness for leg strength....
Since your big thing is being light and system-fit from frisbee et al,
to me this would be the best approach for you. You will need to
practice spinning at higher revs with longer cranks to be effective
with them.

Don't think of using longer cranks as a baby thing or whatever. Just
choose the right tool for the job, and off you go!

However, Whiteface is nowhere near as steep as MW. The grade on
Whiteface allows for constantly seated pedaling. So I'm still
wondering if the right tool might be the 150s. This morning I rode up
a 3 mile, 1100 foot climb, but it's a bit different because it has many
changes in grade, from flat to around 25% on the last stretch. That
part required standing. Maybe I'll try the same climb with the 165s
and compare.

john_childs said:

So the question becomes are you able to pedal the 150s more efficiently
while climbing so that you save energy and thus can go faster? Do you
think you'll be able to pedal 150s while remaining seated for the fast
majority of the climb? Having to stand on the pedals slows the cadence
down (and thus slows the unicycle down) and uses more energy. So being
able to stay seated with longer cranks and just spin them can end up
faster than going with shorter cranks where you have to stand on the
pedals more often.

Hmmm. Yes, on Whiteface I'm able to sit and spin. There is no place
standing is needed. But with less force to push, as with the longer
cranks, I might be able to spin the 165s faster overall. Still, my
legs are kind of short (I'm 5'6"😉 and the 165s always felt like a bit
too large a circle.

Decisions, decisions.😕

--
steveyo

steveyo
...like having your own personal rollercoaster...

- a few 'uni race write-ups'
(http://home.nycap.rr.com/rduhan/uni_race_writeups/)
- muni and kokopelli uni 't-shirts, mugs and stickers'
(http://www.cafepress.com/steveyo)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
steveyo's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/7228
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

steveyo said:

Er..3300 -feet -I assume you meant? So you spun the shorter cranks a
bit faster. Hmm.

Yes, sorry. 1000 meters, 3300 feet. I think the shorter cranks kept
me more honest, working harder to keep the spin going on the steeper
sections.

--
tholub
------------------------------------------------------------------------
tholub's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/804
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

steveyo said:

Hmmm. Yes, on Whiteface I'm able to sit and spin. There is no place
standing is needed. But with less force to push, as with the longer
cranks, I might be able to spin the 165s faster overall. Still, my
legs are kind of short (I'm 5'6"😉 and the 165s always felt like a bit
too large a circle.

If the longer cranks don't suit you because of short legs or general
body mechanics then go with the 150s. You said you were able to sit
and spin up the climb with the 150s so they're good.

If you're not able to efficiently pedal the larger cranks in a proper
pedaling circle then they can easily slow you down or waste energy.
It's very easy to lose pedaling momentum at the bottom of the pedal
stroke if you're not able to properly spin them in a circle and keep
the pedaling force going at the top and bottom of the pedal circle.
That waste of energy and speed can slow you down on a climb. Wasting
energy is bad when racing up a climb.

--
john_childs

john_childs (att) hotmail (dott) com
Team Never Wash Your Muni
Gallery: http://gallery.unicyclist.com/john_childs
'Unicycling Bookmark List' (http://backcountry.unicyclist.com/) ::
'World Clock' (http://tinyurl.com/2blym3)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
john_childs's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/449
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Well I race single speed mtn bikes so I'm going to try to help you out
here a little bit. Riding a harder gear on a bike is like having
shorter cranks on a unicycle. So the trick to single speeding is to
have as hard of a gear that you can get up most (or all) of the climbs
on a course with. So if you have a harder gear, it forces you to push
harder to maintain your speed going up a hill and therefore get up the
hill faster. But if you have too hard of a gear, you will either be
wasting energy standing up trying to push that heavy gear up a hill or
just have to walk. Where as having too easy of a gear just completely
ruins the whole point of singlespeeds which is to accel on the climbs
and pass the people with gears. So on a hilly course I tend to go with
a harder gear which does seem kinda backward but it makes you pass
those people dare I say "like lance armstrong" who just spin those easy
gears. So in that regard Ian ulrich rides like a singlespeeder but he
got banned for doping along with the other 1/3 of the road racing
community. well it got kinda off topic there but I hope that helped and
good luck in your race

max

--
gordito8me

29er or 36er? can't decide
either way I have like 54 bucks so nothing too great.
radial 360 or nimbus 29er????
helllpppp!!!!
helllpppp!!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
gordito8me's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/13641
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Hi Steveyo!

First of all good luck to you this year! I would go with the 150's.
After many years KH has made them standard on his Muni's meaning that
as he and others got more experienced the shorter crancks became
better. I love MUni much more and therefore don't ride my KH29 that
much. I have the stock 150s on it. However I still notice that the 150s
are getting much more comfortable. Also there are less and less times
that I just can't climb a section with them. One of the most annoying
things is when you just can't spin your legs around any faster but you
aren't using much muscle power.
If you want to invest some money in this passion of yours you might
want to consider a Guni. Higher geared power with longer cranks. I
think Gunis are manufactured by Livewire. If I remember correctly they
have a pretty good site with a lot of links and usefull info.

All the Best!
Unicorn

--
Unicorn

Keep your eyes on the stars and your feet on the pedals, and you will
accomplish great feats!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unicorn's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/12801
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Steve,

I'd say go with the 150's. In fact, I'd wager that once you are done,
you will wish you had used 137's on that 29er.

Good luck with the race!

--
ahollow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ahollow's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/13990
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Congrads on your large improvement in the second race. It sounds like
your gut is telling you the 150's are more fun.😉 Perhaps that should
settle it.
However, if you are real competitive, perhaps your best fun would be
the shortest time. So then there is little option but to break out the
stop watch .
The racers friend !😄 On the bright side, uni testing is cheap and
not as much of a pain as swapping engine parts etc. So have some fun
testing. Let us know what you decide.🙂

--
feel the light
------------------------------------------------------------------------
feel the light's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/14551
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Whats the difference between them, exept length, which is faster, which
is easier?

What kind of cranks are on a DX 20 inch?

--
CKCrowe

1-5 Hours a day-Treyflip😄-next-Hickfakieflip:eek:
Unicycler for Christ.🙄
'' (http://tinyurl.com/32tsn3)My Gallery

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=unicrankflipMy Youtube Account
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CKCrowe's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/13945
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Good luck this year.I'll be waiting to hear about your climb and win.
Your results will help me out alot. I want to drop down to 150's, but I
can't seem to get off of my 170's. I can't imagine climbing San
Francisco hills on 150's[> 20% grade]. The responses from your thread
are exactly the type of info that I need. I have been wondering if my
30 inch inseam legs are too short for 170's. that's a big circle to
have to push on. I think you should choose the length that will be the
most FUN.

--
since10
------------------------------------------------------------------------
since10's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/14394
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Well I climbed that 1100 foot vertical training ride again with KH29 and
150mm cranks. This time I was a bit more tired from a muni ride the
previous evening and found it a little bit tougher. I still made the
last pitch of 25% grade all the way to the summit but it was a bit more
effort. Then I lay awake this morning ruminating on it and decided to
swap on the 165s and ride the climb again. I think now that I may go
with the advice of U-Turn:

U-Turn said:

...it might be better to describe larger circles with less force per
degree. This would allow you to trade system fitness for leg strength.
...Lower your gear and increase your leverage to shift the load to your
cardiovascular system away from your quads. ...Since your big thing is
being light and system-fit from frisbee et al, to me this would be the
best approach for you...Don't think of using longer cranks as a baby
thing or whatever. Just choose the right tool for the job, and off you
go!

-and-

john_childs said:

Are there any times during the climb with the 165s that you felt your
speed was being cadence limited? Meaning that you could have gone
faster if you could only spin the pedals faster for that section of the
climb?

Sitting and fast spinning appeals to me now more than mashing. I'll
post once more (at least 😉 ) after tomorrow training climb with the
165s.

--
steveyo

steveyo
...like having your own personal rollercoaster...

- a few 'uni race write-ups'
(http://home.nycap.rr.com/rduhan/uni_race_writeups/)
- muni and kokopelli uni 't-shirts, mugs and stickers'
(http://www.cafepress.com/steveyo)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
steveyo's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/7228
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

steveyo said:

Well I climbed that 1100 foot vertical training ride again with KH29 and
150mm cranks. This time I was a bit more tired from a muni ride the
previous evening and found it a little bit tougher. I still made the
last pitch of 25% grade all the way to the summit but it was a bit more
effort....
Sitting and fast spinning appeals to me now more than mashing. I'll
post once more (at least 😉 ) after tomorrow training climb with the
165s.

OK - I did this training climb once more with longer cranks (165s vs
150s). I still had to stand, but only on the very steepest bits.
After the climb, the descent was easier on my knees, which I'd
expected. On the medium grades of the hill, (which is like my upcoming
race) I was spinning the wheel more easily than with the 150s. Most
significantly, at the end of the workout, I had plenty of steam left,
and added another steep, long hill to top off my endorphin buzz. This
last hill I've never before succeeded in climbing continuously.

I'm afraid, since the race has no letup, that the 150s would eventually
tire out my quads too much. With the 165s, I can stress my aerobic
capacity more and spin rather than mash the pedals.

So... I'm going to leave the longer cranks on for the 'Whiteface climb'
(http://www.whitefacerace.com/bikeraceinfo.html) on Saturday 6/16/07
and hope to break my record of 1:25:53. A nice bonus would be winning
the Uni category, which, this year, will have at least 4 other
entrants. In 2005 I was the first and only uni, and I was also the
only uni in 2006.

I will post a race report after Saturday's race.

--
steveyo

steveyo
...like having your own personal rollercoaster...

- a few 'uni race write-ups'
(http://home.nycap.rr.com/rduhan/uni_race_writeups/)
- muni and kokopelli uni 't-shirts, mugs and stickers'
(http://www.cafepress.com/steveyo)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
steveyo's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/7228
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

I was going to say stick with the 150s but your research should be more
reliable than my opinion. 🙂 I was going to note that all (or nearly
all) of us on the Tahoe ride last week used 125mm on Cokers, but that
ride is a mix, of up, down and (not enough) flat.

Certainly your fitness has improved in the last two years, as well as
your skills. But if you feel better on the 165s, that's all you need to
know.

--
johnfoss

John Foss
Email: "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com
-----------------------------------------------

"pretty much every trail that we've done on the California or Moab Muni
weekends is an XC trail." -- Kris Holm, on XC from a North Shore point
of view
------------------------------------------------------------------------
johnfoss's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/832
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

johnfoss said:

I was going to say stick with the 150s but your research should be more
reliable than my opinion. 🙂 I was going to note that all (or nearly
all) of us on the Tahoe ride last week used 125mm on Cokers, but that
ride is a mix, of up, down and (not enough) flat.

Certainly your fitness has improved in the last two years, as well as
your skills. But if you feel better on the 165s, that's all you need to
know.

I've always been fit from playing competitive ultimate, but my
unicycling-specific fitness is way improved, esp. from two years ago.
Training for the 24 hr muni race, and now this race has gotten me to a
personal high point re: uni-speciifc fitness. (I hope :eek: )

I did notice more saddle-soreness from using the longer cranks, and,
yeah, John, if I had any real distance to worry about I'd go shorter,
but this ride is only 8 miles, all constant-grade, and all up.

I'm still torn, really, and maybe next year I'll try the 150s (or
shorter?).

--
steveyo

steveyo
...like having your own personal rollercoaster...

- a few 'uni race write-ups'
(http://home.nycap.rr.com/rduhan/uni_race_writeups/)
- muni and kokopelli uni 't-shirts, mugs and stickers'
(http://www.cafepress.com/steveyo)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
steveyo's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/7228
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Sounds like you've done your research _and_ your training Steveyo, so
I'm guessing you'll have a great ride. I'll be there too, and over the
last week I've been trying to decide on wheel size and crank arm
length. I have a 28"wheel that feels really good with 175 mm cranks I
robbed off of my tandem bike, (I'm 6'2) and also a 26" wheel with
170's. I did a practice ride last weekend and hit the wall with the
bigger setup, just used up my legs after 4 miles with pitches a little
steeper than Whiteface. The other day I did the same climb with the 26
and felt like I could go all day. I'm thinking I'll go the spin route
rather than the mash, especially since I haven't done Whiteface before
and don't really know how hard it will be. I don't have any
expectations of winning, just fantasies!🙄

--
bmerry
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bmerry's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/11933
View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/61370

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com