Crucifying Alternative Medicine

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine?

Most of those "stone casters" use alternative medicines.

Quoted message said:

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do

work.

They whould be whom?

Quoted message said:

Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we have
to choose what

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
dependent on

pharmaceuticals,

Quoted message said:

to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
live with so much

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.

Tell them to stop reading your posts.

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that do

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
work, because they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends...

Goddess-like.

Quoted message said:

A question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
and THINK for yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience,

IOW, suppress your critical thinking skills and almost
exclusively belive in personal testimonials.

moo

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
certain group of individuals, who stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do

work.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
conventional medicine

is not

Quoted message said:

getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real reason,

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
we have to choose what

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
dependent on

pharmaceuticals,

Quoted message said:

to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
live with so much

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've asked
why doesn't your doctor look for the source

of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled". This
type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
an oath when they became doctors

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company. Or what kind

of

Quoted message said:

bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
about those of us that are not

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that do

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
work, because they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
and THINK for yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
remember if you choose the wrong choice,

you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
medicine that will work for you, and

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''-
'''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Good post , well said . Bew

Yup like Barret 'ignore the evidence Barret' because it
suits me sir. When the 'Quackbusters' can't destroy the
treatment they go on a witch hunt for the people who
give it. Anth

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040307011159.10302.00000947@mb-
m03.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
certain group of individuals, who stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do

work.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
conventional medicine

is not

Quoted message said:

getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real reason,

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
we have to choose what

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
dependent on

pharmaceuticals,

Quoted message said:

to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
live with so much

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've asked
why doesn't your doctor look for the source

of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled". This
type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
an oath when they became doctors

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company. Or what kind

of

Quoted message said:

bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
about those of us that are not

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that do

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
work, because they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
and THINK for yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
remember if you choose the wrong choice,

you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
medicine that will work for you, and

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine?

Actually, the "agenda" is to defend the scientific method
and rational thought against the magical thinking and
superstition of the alties. There is as much "stone
throwing" from the other side as from us debunkers and more
personal invective.

Quoted message said:

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do

work.

Contrary to the beliefs of a few here, NOBODY gets paid to
post to this newsgroup. And nothing posted here reaches a
wide enough audience to affect the income of anybody.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous.

What healing powers?

Quoted message said:

And for the fact, that conventional medicine is not
getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real reason,

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them?

We don't want to "destroy" individuals. We just want to
shoot down silly ideas.

Quoted message said:

Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we have
to choose what

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs.

"Find the root of the medical problem"? One of the biggest
problems with altie quackery is that its practitioners do
not do a proper diagnosis. If they are selling chelation,
everybody's problem is one that can be treated with
chelation; if they are chiropractors, everyone is diagnosed
"subluxations"; homeopathy ignores diagnosis entirely and
treats the symptoms specifically; etc. NONE of the
"alternatives" is well enough founded in knowledge of
anatomy and physiology to really find the root of a disease.
Conventional medicine is.

Quoted message said:

Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day. I know
numerous people that live with so much

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've asked
why doesn't your doctor look for the source

of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled".

When medical professionals can treat the cause of pain they
do. Most of the people who come to my emergency room in pain
leave pain free, and not just because we gave them drugs.
Unfortunately, there are people with chronic pain from
incurable conditions. For them, long term medication is
often an important part of a pain management regime. The
altie quacks can do no better at "looking for the source of
the pain."

Quoted message said:

This type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly
took an oath when they became doctors

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company.

Sadistic behavior? Treating pain is sadistic?

Quoted message said:

Or what kind of bonuses they've received over the years
for their quick appointments? For those that claim anti-
semitism remarks about those of us that are not

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

"...some of your people were justified in crucifying
Christ"? You anti-Semites never let up, do you?

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that do

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
work, because they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
and THINK for yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
remember if you choose the wrong choice,

you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
medicine that will work for you, and

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

Are you implying that YOU ("rest of us"😉 have found yourself
dying, forsaken by conventional medicine, and compelled to
choose an alternative to save you life? Tell us the story.

--Rich

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen

to

Quoted message said:

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
certain group of individuals, who stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies
and how they do

work.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
conventional medicine

is not

Quoted message said:

getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real

reason,

Quoted message said:

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
we have to choose

what

Quoted message said:

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
alternative medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
dependent on

pharmaceuticals,

Quoted message said:

to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
live with so

much

Quoted message said:

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day,
they have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to
last. Is this any kind of life

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

these people? When I've asked why doesn't your doctor
look for the

source

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled". This
type of

sadistic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

behavior from doctors who allegedly took an oath when
they became

doctors

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company. Or what

kind

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
about those of us that are

not

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that

do

Quoted message said:

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago,

"forgive

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them, for they do not know what they are doing." They
are attempting to crucify methods that work, because
they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends...
A question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fence", or would you rather back down, and THINK for
yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which

others

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have.....the choice is yours, but remember if you choose
the wrong

choice,

Quoted message said:

you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as
the rest of us

have,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when there is no form of conventional medicine that will
work for you,

and

Quoted message said:

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''-
'''''''''''''''''

Quoted message said:

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Good post , well said .

Including the anti-semitism?

In article <[email hidden]>,
DEBBEE1023 says...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have
an agenda with those that have chosen to use some
form of alternative medicine?

Ever notice that those who are fighting against those
bringing a semblence of reason and fact to the health care
issue seem to be unable to argue against rational fact and
science, and must instead stoop to cheap bigoted insults in
the place of a cogent argument?

Quoted message said:

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
stand to lose financial gain if the word gets out
about alternative therapies and how they do work.

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals who felt
frustrated by their failures in life, and began to
consolidate power through the blame of others, rather than
focus on their own shortcomings.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers,

Healing powers? Are you claiming that alternative
"doctors"... wait, scratch that... let's call them
"alternative medicine practicioners" perform "miracles" on
par with Jesus Christ?

Debbee, I believe the concerns with certain alternative
medicines and practices that the contrarians in this group
have can be classified into at least two basic categories:

1) Those herbal remedies or similar extractive preparations
that are not refined or otherwise scientifically
processed, so that their dosages aren't accurate, their
properties cannot be adequately estimated, and their
effects cannot be accurately predicted;

2) Remedies or techniques which have no basis in scientific
fact at all, but are offered as miracle cures, and are
simply ways in which charlatans can part fools from
their money.

Nobody doubts, for instance, that herbal remedies can have a
physiological impact on the human body. After all, many
medicines are derived from various chemical compounds found
in herbs, plants, trees, etc, that have been scientifically
examined and processed in a manner to allow for accurate dose-
response relationships.

There's a big difference between a Bayer aspirin, and the
bark of a white willow tree.

There are, I am sure, more categories, but these two will
suffice for now.

Quoted message said:

that made them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
conventional medicine is not getting every dollar.

As a free marketeer, I wholly believe in more competition in
the marketplace. But I am not willing to allow dishonest
charlatans to prey on the health of foolish and sometimes
desperate individuals.

Quoted message said:

Is this not true, and is this not the real reason, some of
you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has the guts to step up to the plate, and
state how alternative medicine has helped them?

No, it is not true, and it is not the real reason that
I am here.

Quoted message said:

Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
we have to choose what type of medicine we use,

And some of you are absolutely clueless about the freedoms
we have to state what we think is wrong with your choices,
and, more importantly, your root beliefs about the nature
of others.

Quoted message said:

and dislike those that use alternative medicine and
promote healing which is to find the root of the medical
problem instead of masking it with drugs.

Obviously, you don't know any physicians.

Quoted message said:

Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day.

Fine, that's your choice. You can freely choose to take
whatever risks that you want with your own health and safety
- as long as you are freely informed as to the risks that
you are going to undertake.

Unfortunately, with many alternative therapies, you are not
privy to that information.

Quoted message said:

I know numerous people that live with so much pain every
day, that in order to make it through the day, they have
to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last. Is
this any kind of life for these people?

It's a better life than the desperation of wasting
prodigious sums of money on "miracle cures" that don't work,
leaving them still in pain, poorer, and in some cases, in
worse physical shape as a result of the so-called "miracle".

Quoted message said:

When I've asked why doesn't your doctor look for the
source of the pain, and do something about it...well,
their doctor doesn't have time, or has been told to look
for the "quick fix".

Doubtful. Not only are doctors trained specifically to find
the root cause of an ailment, under the HMO system the
quickest route towards curing is to find that root cause.

Quoted message said:

These people are merely surviving, and not living because
they are being "controlled". This type of sadistic
behavior from doctors who allegedly took an oath when they
became doctors is little more than just their friendly
pharmaceutical company. Or what kind of bonuses they've
received over the years for their quick appointments?

Again, you obviously don't know any doctors.

Quoted message said:

For those that claim anti-semitism remarks about
those of us that are not of your faith, perhaps you
need explain how some of your people were justified
in crucifying Christ,

Ah, and here we get to the root of Debbee's problem ailment:
her belief that the Jews of today are somehow to blame for
the actions of a very few individuals 2000 years ago.

I don't justify the behavior of that group of Jews. Not only
do I have no need or desire to, _YOUR OWN FAITH_ makes it
entirely unnecessary. If there's anything the various
Gospels tell us, it is that Christ had to die on the cross
in order for humanity to be saved. Without the crucifiction,
there would have been no resurrection, so the Gospels tell
us, and therefore no miracle.

That means no Easter, no Holy Trinity, no Christianity (as a
separate religion from Judaism).

According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ had to die. So
your anger at the Jews is misplaced and misguided.

But thank you once again for demonstrating your bigoted
ignorance.

(snip of the rest)

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for
his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless
expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not
those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor
has he ever been, paid to post here.

[email hidden] (DEBBEE1023) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to use some form of
alternative medicine? It reminds me of a certain group of
individuals, who stand to lose financial gain if the word
gets out about alternative therapies and how they do work.

Word of real successes DOES get out -- all the time. Weeding
through the "everything alternative is good" [censored] makes
it harder to discern the truth, but it's there. "Lose
financial gain"??? Yeah, right. As if there's no money to be
made in alternative medicine.....LOL!! (Not to mention that
insurance companies aren't going to ignore effective
treatments that will save them money.) Successful alt.
health care won't stop people from getting sick -- hurting
themselves -- & ignoring the lifestyle advice their
conventional providers give them because they want to smoke,
drink too much, & stuff their faces with lousy food while
sitting around all day. There will always be a big demand
for the services of those in conventional health care.
"Threat"? Hardly.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that made them so insanely jealous. And
for the fact, that conventional medicine is not getting
every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not the real
reason, some of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy
every individual that has the guts to step up to the
plate, and state how alternative medicine has helped them?

Questioning & asking for evidence of a treatment's efficacy
is "destroying" someone?? ROFLMAO! Nobody stops anyone from
voicing their POV, their experiences -- & nobody should
expect others not to debate them & express another POV. If
their claims crumble like an organic wheat muffin, tough.

[BTW, your erroneous statement that Jesus was the target of
"pure jealousy" WRT to his reported healing powers is
laughable. His claim to be the son of God & King of the Jews
was what threatened the political powers of the time. The
region was -- as it still is today -- politically troubled.]

Quoted message said:

Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
we have to choose what type of medicine we use, and
dislike those that use alternative medicine and
promote healing which is to find the root of the
medical problem instead of masking it with drugs.

You're the one who's clueless here, DEBBEE. Nobody's
stopping you from using alt. treatments or posting about
them. And your "masking it with drugs" rhetoric is just
that. Many conditions are successfully treated (not always
CURED) & the patient's quality of life greatly improved by
pharmaceuticals. Just ask someone with IDDM or
hypothyroidism if the drugs they need to take make any
positive difference for them.

Quoted message said:

Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day.

"Co-dependent on pharmaceuticals"???? You're apparently not
familiar with the term "co-dependent" -- not surprising.
Don't want to be DEPENDENT on any meds? So don't take them,
simple enough. Nobody cares if you do or don't.

Quoted message said:

I know numerous people that live with so much pain every
day, that in order to make it through the day, they have
to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last. Is
this any kind of life for these people?

Learning about different types of pain might enlighten you.
Some types of pain respond well to alt. therapies, some to a
combo of meds & alt. treatment, & others are relieved only
by pharmaceuticals. Considering the cause of the pain is
important as well. If the cause can be treated successfully
-- even if not cured -- the pain (if still present) is often
dealt with far differently than if the underlying problem
remains or worsens.

Quoted message said:

When I've asked why doesn't your doctor look for the
source of the pain, and do something about it...well,
their doctor doesn't have time, or has been told to look
for the "quick fix". These people are merely surviving,
and not living because they are being "controlled". This
type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
an oath when they became doctors is little more than just
their friendly pharmaceutical company. Or what kind of
bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
appointments?

Your silly-ass pronouncements just go on & on, DEBBEE. If a
patient truly had a doc that didn't have time to make the
effort to find out the etiology of their pain, they should
see another MD. "Quick fixes" are sometimes what a patient
demands, especially if treating the source of the pain will
take time or effort they're not willing (or perhaps really
not able for any number of reasons) to devote to it. In many
cases, pain meds are prescribed only until the treatment of
its cause makes them unecessary.

Pain management is a fast growing part of conventional
health care that very often includes alt. therapies.
Exercise, chiropractic, massage, biofeedback & hypnosis, &
other alt. treatments are frequently utilized as tools by
those in the pain management arena. Patients are often
referred to these docs/therapists/facilities by MD's.

Quoted message said:

for those that claim anti-semitism remarks about those of
us that are not of your faith,

"Those of us that are not of your faith" has NOTHING to do
with your anti-Semetic remarks, DEBBEE. People of different
religious beliefs have commented on your anti-Semetic [censored].
Many non-Jews recognize your religious bigotry for the
disgusting puke it is.

Quoted message said:

perhaps you need explain how some of your people were
justified in crucifying Christ,

So the Roman guards & Pontius Pilate were Jews, eh?

The Bible says that Jesus was sent to take the punishment
the people of the world deserved. It wasn't a 33 year visit,
it was a mission to die for the world's sins. He had been
described as the "Lamb of God" & that wasn't a reference to
Sharee Lewis' puppet, hon. The custom of sacrificing a lamb
without blemish to God was well established -- & as the
"lamb of God", Jesus was supposedly the *perfect* sacrifice
needed to atone for the sins of humanity. To say that mere
mortals determined the fate of someone you say is the son of
God is ridiculous. According to the Bible, Jesus was
destined to lay down his life here as a sacrifice -- He was
here to fulfill that purpose. NOBODY -- then or now -- needs
to "justify" anything about Jesus' life or death. The Bible
says it was pre-ordained by God that the sacrifice of Jesus
would happen. Christians say it did -- & while you are
apparently confident that His sacrifice pays for your sins
(including your anti-Semetism & making up stories here on
MHA), you try to blame the targets of your dirty bigotry for
the very event that you claim gives you eternal salvation!
What a nasty booger you are, DEBBEE!

Quoted message said:

and why some of your people today are attempting to
crucify those individuals have discovering alternative
healing therapies that do work.

For those that have been harassed by individuals in
this newsgroup that do not like alternative
therapies, remember, the words spoken years ago,
"forgive them, for they do not know what they are
doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
work, because they do not understand, and for which
there is no financial gain for themselves or their
friends...

Trying to compare the crucifixion to the back & forth
here on MHA is beyond a pathetic exaggeration. It is
something you should ask forgiveness for. And your
outright lying statments WRT the reasons some here don't
blindly accept whatever they are told by those promoting
alt. therapies of questionable efficacy to make a buck
(or to air their opinion that *some* eeeevil conspiracy
is afoot) will require some more of that forgiveness you
blame the Jews for.

Quoted message said:

A question to those that continue to harass...is it
THAT important for you to be sitting on what you
have been led to believe is the "right side of the
fence", or would you rather back down, and THINK for
yourself before denouncing therapies for which you
have no personal experience, and for which others
have

Thinking for one's self is the reason many here debate some
of the alt. ideas touted on MHA. Research, evidence of
*some* sort besides the sales pitch of someone whose claims
show a glaring deficit of accurate information about A&P and
basic physiology -- or the vague story of someone's personal
"miracle" that meets questions about the claim with little
or nothing in the way of direct answers -- is helpful in
weighing the pros & cons of a therapy as well as evaluating
the believability of the information presented as fact.

Quoted message said:

.....the choice is yours, but remember if you choose
the wrong

choice, you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
medicine that will work for you, and then what will you do
then...die....or try an alternative?

Many here have combined effective alt. therapies with
conventional medicine. Some of us believe in trying the
simplest, least invasive treatments for a health problem
first. Nobody should simply believe claims of "miracles"
when it becomes apparent that there is little or nothing to
indicate the claims are true. Unfortunately, there are
plenty of folks willing to empty the pockets of desperate
people for nothing but disappointment. [This isn't limited
to alt. practitioners. There are honest & dishonest people
in both conventional & alt. health care. The advantage with
conventional medicine is that it is easier to gather
information about it to assess than it is with alt.
therapies.]

Quoted message said:

I chose trying alternative therapies....what will
you try?

Some maladies consistently respond very well to a particular
treatment, be it alt. or conventional. In such cases, it
makes sense to utilize that treatment. In other instances,
patients have to do their homework, ask questions & analyze
the answers, & weigh all the factors involved.

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen

to

Quoted message said:

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine?

Actually, the "agenda" is to defend the scientific method
and rational thought against the magical thinking and
superstition of the alties. There is as much "stone
throwing" from the other side as from us debunkers and
more personal invective.

Quoted message said:

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies
and how they do

work.

Contrary to the beliefs of a few here, NOBODY gets paid to
post to this newsgroup. And nothing posted here reaches a
wide enough audience to

affect

Quoted message said:

the income of anybody.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous.

What healing powers?

Quoted message said:

And for the fact, that conventional medicine is not
getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real

reason,

Quoted message said:

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them?

We don't want to "destroy" individuals. We just want to
shoot down silly ideas.

Quoted message said:

Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we
have to choose

what

Quoted message said:

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
alternative medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs.

"Find the root of the medical problem"? One of the biggest
problems with altie quackery is that its practitioners do
not do a proper diagnosis. If they are selling chelation,
everybody's problem is one that can be treated with
chelation; if they are chiropractors, everyone is
diagnosed "subluxations"; homeopathy ignores diagnosis
entirely and treats the symptoms specifically; etc. NONE
of the "alternatives" is well enough founded in knowledge
of anatomy and physiology to really find the root of

a

Quoted message said:

disease. Conventional medicine is.

Your mistaken, please read 'Organon of Medicine', by Semuel
Hahnemann and 'The Science of Homeopathy', by George
Vithoulkas before you comment on Homeopathy; remember a
little knowledge is always dangerous.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day. I know
numerous people that live with so

much

Quoted message said:

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day,
they have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to
last. Is this any kind of life

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

these people? When I've asked why doesn't your doctor
look for the

source

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled".

When medical professionals can treat the cause of pain
they do. Most of

the

Quoted message said:

people who come to my emergency room in pain leave pain
free, and not just because we gave them drugs.
Unfortunately, there are people with chronic pain from
incurable conditions. For them, long term medication is
often an important part of a pain management regime. The
altie quacks can do no better at "looking for the source
of the pain."

Quoted message said:

This type of sadistic behavior from doctors who
allegedly took an oath when they became

doctors

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company.

Sadistic behavior? Treating pain is sadistic?

Quoted message said:

Or what kind of bonuses they've received over the years
for their quick appointments? For those that claim anti-
semitism remarks about those of us that are

not

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

"...some of your people were justified in crucifying
Christ"? You anti-Semites never let up, do you?

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that

do

Quoted message said:

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago,

"forgive

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them, for they do not know what they are doing." They
are attempting to crucify methods that work, because
they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends...
A question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fence", or would you rather back down, and THINK for
yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which

others

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have.....the choice is yours, but remember if you choose
the wrong

choice,

Quoted message said:

you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as
the rest of us

have,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when there is no form of conventional medicine that will
work for you,

and

Quoted message said:

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

Are you implying that YOU ("rest of us"😉 have found
yourself dying,

forsaken

Quoted message said:

by conventional medicine, and compelled to choose an
alternative to save

you

Quoted message said:

life? Tell us the story.

--Rich

<< Actually, the "agenda" is to defend the scientific method
and rational thought against the magical thinking and
superstition of the alties. There is as much "stone
throwing" from the other side as from us debunkers and more
personal invective.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What "scientific method" are you referring to, as with
alternative medicine there are many things that cannot be
proven using scientific evidence...for exampe, read this
dude's comments about some of the specific arguments that
several of you have made here that hold very little
substance....

google.comsearchOpen ↗
alhealing.com.h
k/.htm+throwing+stones+at+alternative+medicine&hl=en&ie=UTF-
8

<< Contrary to the beliefs of a few here, NOBODY gets paid
to post to this newsgroup. And nothing posted here reaches a
wide enough audience to affect the income of anybody. >>

Wow, that really surprises me. Then, why are a number of
individuals so quick to shoot down alternative therapies?
What would be the reason behind doing this, and why not just
do something else with their time? They don't care for
alternative therapies, and made reference to their position
over and over and over again....Perhaps they are trying to
make a name for themselves using Usenet newsgroups, then?

<< What healing powers? >>

Obviously, you haven't read the New Testament lately.

<< We don't want to "destroy" individuals. We just want to
shoot down silly ideas. >>

Wow, that's "news" to me, and where do you get off stating
that these ideas are silly in the first place? Tell what
personal experience you have in all of alternative
medicine...I know there are people here that have agendas
claiming that a loved one died from using an alternative
form of medicine. However, it is my understanding that
people were probably going to die anyways, and this was
their last chance at finding something that could work. So
instead of admitting this, they have gone out of their way
to try to destroy alternative therapies. They have hidden
agendas, one could say.

<< "Find the root of the medical problem"? One of the
biggest problems with altie quackery is that its
practitioners do not do a proper diagnosis. >>

Wow, that's such an inaccurate statement if I ever heard
one. You are making a claim about all alternative
practictioners, and thinking that all of them may be like
this. You are completely "off base".

<< NONE of the "alternatives" is well enough founded in
knowledge of anatomy and physiology to really find the root
of a disease. Conventional medicine is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Conventional medicine is not. You are making a blanket
statement and attempting to "cover" all bases. How many
people do you think go to a doctor, and are properly
diagnosed 100% of the time on their first visit with the
right drugs or therapies for the job, and they are
mysteriously healed immediately?

Give me a break....this is so far off base that it is
hilarious...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When medical professionals can treat the cause of pain
they do. Most of the

people who come to my emergency room in pain leave pain
free, and not just because we gave them drugs.
Unfortunately, there are people with chronic pain from
incurable conditions. For them, long term medication is
often an important part of a pain management regime. The
altie quacks can do no better at "looking for the source of
the pain."<<<

Do tell what your emergency room does that others in this
country do not do, besides load people up with either pain
shots or drugs, so when they leave, they live pain free? I
want to know what your emergency room does, so perhaps your
emergency room can serve as a model for others in the
country that do not practice the same methods as yours. If
there are people with chronic pain from incurable
conditions...why isn't conventional medicine working on
those problems? Do you even understand what you are stating
here? You've just admitted that conventional medicine cannot
help everyone. Do you even know why there is a problem with
drug abuse in this country? It starts much of the time with
people being so doped up on pain killers, and having to get
more when the doses don't work for them. Case in point...I
have a friend with arthritis, she was being given bucoo
doses of pain pills to get rid of the pain...and lost her
job because she was "dopey" all of the time...she decided to
go the alternative route; cleaning up her eating habits,
drinking more water, got into chiropractic care, and got off
of the drugs...and her arthritis pain is gone... In fact,
more and more conventional doctors are looking at
alternative sources for helping people... << Sadistic
behavior? Treating pain is sadistic? >> Keeping people doped
up is sadistic, and not looking to find what is really wrong
with an individual, whether it be stress, depression, or an
actual physical problem that could be corrected by surgery,
or cleaning up one's lifestyle....keeping someone on pain
pills 24/7 means they are merely "surviving", and not
"living"....

<< "...some of your people were justified in crucifying
Christ"? You anti-Semites never let up, do you? >>

You again, as usual with this group have missed
the point...check out the wording..."some of your
people".....did some of your ancestors, not
crucify Christ?

<< Are you implying that YOU ("rest of us"😉 have found
yourself dying, forsaken by conventional medicine, and
compelled to choose an alternative to save you life? Tell us
the story. >> There wasn't a "magic pill" or therapy issued
by conventional medicine for what ailed me. Conventional
doctors didn't know what to do for me, and suggested
alternative medicine as another source. My conventional
doctor worked with my complementary physician, and both
doctors are pleased at my success story....

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance."
(Jessie Winchester).

<< Ever notice that those who are fighting against those
bringing a semblence of reason and fact to the health care
issue seem to be unable to argue against rational fact and
science, and must instead stoop to cheap bigoted insults in
the place of a cogent argument? >>

Stop throwing stones, Andrew...your ignorance is
showing...

<< It reminds me of a certain group of individuals who felt
frustrated by their failures in life, and began to
consolidate power through the blame of others, rather than
focus on their own shortcomings. >>

I suppose you are referring to yourself, right? If so, I
agree 100%.

<< As a free marketeer, I wholly believe in more competition
in the marketplace. But I am not willing to allow dishonest
charlatans to prey on the health of foolish and sometimes
desperate individuals. >>

Worry about yourself, and let the rest of us worry about
ourselves...this isn't your job....because every individual
is unique, and every one's body is different, just like with
conventional medicine, what may work for some, does not work
for everyone...

<< And some of you are absolutely clueless about the
freedoms we have to state what we think is wrong with your
choices, and, more importantly, your root beliefs about the
nature of others.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see last answer...worry about yourself...not anyone
else...it isn't your job...

<< Obviously, you don't know any physicians.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do....Christian ones...

<< Fine, that's your choice. You can freely choose to take
whatever risks that you want with your own health and safety
- as long as you are freely informed as to the risks that
you are going to undertake. >>

I have been all along...not only have I been informed by
alternative practitioners, but by conventional
practictioners, and then I've researched on my own. That's
why I took myself off of prednisone, because the
conventional doctor, failed to give me all of the
risks...and when it wasn't working, she upped the dosage,
and made me very ill...and told me I had to take that
amount...and I told her to go hell...and took myself off of
it, and I got better...

<< Unfortunately, with many alternative therapies, you are
not privy to that information. >>

Anyone can get information about anything...

<< It's a better life than the desperation of wasting
prodigious sums of money on "miracle cures" that don't
work, leaving them still in pain, poorer, and in some
cases, in worse physical shape as a result of the so-called
"miracle". >>

And who are you to judge if this stuff works or not? Did
something tell you that it doesn't work, and so therefore
you believe that it doesn't work for everyone?

<< Doubtful. Not only are doctors trained specifically to
find the root cause of an ailment, under the HMO system the
quickest route towards curing is to find that root cause. >>

I do not believe you....

<< Again, you obviously don't know any doctors. >>

Try again, PAL....that I do....obviously, you have gotten
wrong information...some of us are well informed.

<< Ah, and here we get to the root of Debbee's problem
ailment: her belief that the Jews of today are somehow to
blame for the actions of a very few individuals 2000
years ago. >>

And here we get to the root of your problem....every time
anyone makes a statement such as I have, you yell anti-
semitic....who are you fooling??

<< According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ had to die.
So your anger at the Jews is misplaced and misguided. >>

I'm not angry...you've again, missed the point...

<< But thank you once again for demonstrating your bigoted
ignorance. >>

Thank you for your comments....you've again demonstrated,
one of the very reasons I dislike you as much as I do....

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance."
(Jessie Winchester).

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine?

What alternatives are being used for diabetes these days? I
have an off-line male friend who watches his blood-sugar,
takes his insulin and still feels ill most of the time. He
may also lose one foot. Any suggestions? I'll print them out
and pass them along to him. Or can you recommend a Website?

Quoted message said:

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do

work.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous.

But they did have alternative medications back in Jesus
time, even before - did they not? If so they were curing all
manner of ailments and disease and Jesus would have made no
difference with HIS cures.

And for the fact, that conventional medicine is not

Quoted message said:

getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real reason,

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them?

I think most people are skeptical because anyone can make
any claim they so chose. That doesn't make it true. I can
come here and claim raw onions cured my pneumonia - that
doesn't make it true. I may never have had pneumonia at all.
Perhaps it was just a bad chest cold. Why should anyone
believe what someone "claims" where health and life are at
stake? Claiming something helped them is one thing, but it
looks like some people claim it CURED them of
illnesses/disease they were never really diagnosed as
having. Also, keep in mind many illnesses take care of
themselves given time. Any herb/cure/cleanse taken or not
taken may have had no effect at all in the outcome.

Quoted message said:

Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we have
to choose what

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
dependent on

pharmaceuticals,

Quoted message said:

to make it through the day.

But many who believe in alt health issues DO indeed take a
lot of products to make it through their day. And I'm
talking about large numbers of vitamins and minerals, green
tea, any assortment of herbs etc.

I know numerous people that live with so much pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
Is this any kind of life for these people?

What would their alternative be? What natural pain killers
are out there? Not everyone has access to willow trees to
make their own natural Aspirin/painkiller.

When I've asked why doesn't your doctor look for the source
of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled". This
type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
an oath when they became doctors

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company.

What does the Dr's time have to do with it? The Dr can send
the person for tests of various kinds to try and locate the
source of the pain.

Or what kind of

Quoted message said:

bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
about those of us that are not

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

This is absurd and smacks of anti-semitism. What has
Christ's death got to do with our Dr's today and their
religious beliefs? Christ died over 2000 years ago. This
shouldn't even be mentioned on this NG.

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that do

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what
they are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods
that work,

Please enlighten me as to which alt methods work that are
being hidden from the rest of us. You can be brief. I truly
want to know.

because they do not understand, and for which there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
and THINK for yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which others have.....

And if the proof is there how can Dr's/medical
schools/researchers etc. deny it? I'm assuming there is
proof and not simply anecdotal evidence or simply personal
claims (see above.)

the choice is yours, but remember if you choose the wrong
choice, you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
medicine that will work for you, and

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

What do you recommend my friend do, or look into re' his
diabetes and possible loss of his foot? Also what about my
hypothyroidism? What other alternatives are there besides
the Levoxyl?

Kim

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:20040307145254.20632.00001103@mb->

Quoted message said:

Conventional medicine is not. You are making a blanket
statement and attempting to "cover" all bases. How many
people do you think go to a

doctor,

Quoted message said:

and are properly diagnosed 100% of the time on their first
visit with the

right

Quoted message said:

drugs or therapies for the job, and they are
mysteriously healed

immediately?

Here I agree with YOU. It took many Dr's before my
endometriosis was discovered. Everything was diagnosed from
frigidity to ovarian cysts and all the Dr's were wrong. I
did the Dr to Dr routine as so many others have before me. I
understand the frustration and anger some people feel for
conventional medical Drs. In desperation I finally went to a
mainline teaching hospital in my state (my Ins allowed this
as they were losing money with all the Dr's I was seeing)
and there the REAL problem was finally discovered. Why did
it take so long? When I developed hypothyroidism with all
the classic symptoms I had the SAME problem. This time I
dropped Dr #1 quickly and went to Dr #2 - and he got it
right! I was lucky that #2 was knowledgeable enough to
suspect the problem right off the bat. #1 never listened to
hear all the symptoms I was having. I thought I would have
to go from Dr to Dr all over again. But what about all those
gynecologists???? As far as I know there is no alt treatment
for endometriosis.

My conventional doctor

Quoted message said:

worked with my complementary physician, and both doctors
are pleased at my success story....

Which unfortunately I have not heard.

Kim

Quoted message said:

<<
Ah, and here we get to the root of Debbee's problem ailment: her

belief that

Quoted message said:

the Jews of today are somehow to blame for the actions of
a very few individuals 2000 years ago. >>

And here we get to the root of your problem....every time
anyone makes

a

Quoted message said:

statement such as I have, you yell anti-
semitic....who are you

fooling??

Okay, Debbee, why exactly did you phrase it like that? I've
seen this kind of [censored] from you before, so it's not just
this person who sees it. You might want to re-read your
Bible to learn just who actually did the actual
crucifying...the Romans. Yes, that's right. Crucifixion was
a Roman form of punishment. If he had been killed by Jews he
would have been stoned to death, and that form of death
wasn't bloody enough for the god of the Bible, who had
ordered his people to kill every living thing in a land just
to appease him. (that's in the Old Testament, as you
probably conveniently forget all about the massive murder
and bloodshed committed by the chosen people for this
incredible bloodthirsty god, as has just about every other
'Christian' - in quotes to designate those who appear to be
Christian in name only and not the truly loving and
accepting Christians I know - I've encountered in my life).

You also seem to think that the New Testament is actual 100%
historic fact. Guess again. The gospels are known to have
been written about 40 years after the events described, and
also well after the writings of Paul. There is not a single
eyewitness account in them.

This doesn't mean that the lessons to be learned in these
accounts aren't good, just that since there's no other
historical evidence for any of the actual events, one really
should not claim the Bible as a definitive source.

Kimmer

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Crucifying Alternative Medicine
From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover
Date: 3/7/2004 5:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
certain group of individuals, who stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do

work.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
conventional medicine

is not

Quoted message said:

getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real reason,

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
we have to choose what

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
alternative medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
dependent on

pharmaceuticals,

Quoted message said:

to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
live with so much

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've
asked why doesn't your doctor look for the source

of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled". This
type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
an oath when they became doctors

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company. Or what kind

of

Quoted message said:

bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
about those of us that are not

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that do

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
work, because they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
and THINK for yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
remember if you choose the wrong choice,

you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
medicine that will work for you, and

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''-
''''''''''''''''''
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Good post , well said . Bew

I'll second that.

Now watch for a flood of *anti-semitism* *racist* *fascist*
*Nazi* *bigot* *cult* *$$$cientology* etc., etc.current buzz
words to belittle to follow

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Crucifying Alternative Medicine
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 3/7/2004 5:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Yup like Barret 'ignore the evidence Barret' because it
suits me sir. When the 'Quackbusters' can't destroy the
treatment they go on a witch hunt for the people who
give it. Anth

We have seen these examples HERE over and over.

Jan

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
certain group of individuals, who stand to lose

financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do

work.

Quoted message said:

Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
healing powers, that

made

Quoted message said:

them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
conventional medicine

is not

Quoted message said:

getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
the real reason,

some

Quoted message said:

of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
individual that has

the

Quoted message said:

guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
medicine has

helped

Quoted message said:

them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
we have to choose what

type

Quoted message said:

of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
alternative medicine and

promote

Quoted message said:

healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
instead of

masking it

Quoted message said:

with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
dependent on

pharmaceuticals,

Quoted message said:

to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
live with so much

pain

Quoted message said:

every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've
asked why doesn't your doctor look for the source

of

Quoted message said:

the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
doesn't have

time, or

Quoted message said:

has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
are merely

surviving,

Quoted message said:

and not living because they are being "controlled". This
type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
an oath when they became doctors

is

Quoted message said:

little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
company. Or what kind

of

Quoted message said:

bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
about those of us that are not

of

Quoted message said:

your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
people were

justified in

Quoted message said:

crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
attempting to

crucify

Quoted message said:

those individuals have discovering alternative healing
therapies that do

work.

Quoted message said:

For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
newsgroup that do

not

Quoted message said:

like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
work, because they do not understand, and for which

there

Quoted message said:

is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
important for

you to

Quoted message said:

be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
"right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
and THINK for yourself before

denouncing

Quoted message said:

therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
remember if you choose the wrong choice,

you

Quoted message said:

may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
medicine that will work for you, and

then

Quoted message said:

what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Crucifying Alternative Medicine
From: Andrew Langer [email hidden]
Date: 3/7/2004 7:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>,
DEBBEE1023 says...

Quoted message said:

Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have
an agenda with those that have chosen to

use

Quoted message said:

some form of alternative medicine?

Ever notice that those who

Don't answer a question, but ask another question?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

cheap bigoted insult

ZZzz.

Like Andy's Nazi-girl.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who stand
to lose financial

Quoted message said:

gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
how they do work.

Quoted message said:

It reminds me of a certain group of individuals who felt
frustrated by their failures in life, and began to
consolidate power through the blame of others, rather than
focus on their own shortcomings.

ME 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That group being the *gang*

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Jews of today are somehow to blame for the actions of a
very few individuals 2000 years ago.

ZZzz.

Quoted message said:

your bigoted ignorance.

Right on cue.

ZZzz.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Crucifying Alternative Medicine - suggestions please
From: "Kim" [email hidden]
Date: 3/7/2004 2:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Kim" [email hidden]

Kim" [email hidden]

Kim" [email hidden]

I understand.

Jan

On 08 Mar 2004 07:13:21 GMT, [email hidden] (DEBBEE1023)

Quoted message said:

<< You might want to re-read your Bible to learn just who
actually did the actual crucifying...the Romans. >>

Wrong pal, and the Jews...

Debbee seems sure about that. Funny because she was not
there. With respect to the holocaust Debbee questioned
whether it really happened to the extent claimed because she
was not there.

Funny how Debbee selectively believes something that
happened THOUSANDS of YEARS ago but is skeptical of
something that happened in the lifetime of many.

In fact there are still survivors of the holocaust. It won't
be too many years before the last of the survivors passes
away. It is critical that the lesson of the holocaust not be
lost due to ignorant bigoted anti-semites like Debbee and
Jan who are trying to rewrite history.

Aloha,

Rich
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

<< Word of real successes DOES get out -- all the
time. Weeding through the "everything alternative is
good" [censored] makes it harder to discern the truth,
but it's there >>

Yeah right. Sorry, but I don't believe you, because we've
had success stories mentioned here, and those people
trashed to death.

<< discern the truth, but it's there. "Lose financial
gain"??? Yeah, right. As if there's no money to be made in
alternative medicine.....LOL!! >>

That's right, Michele, you have a business which was
considered "alternative therapy" at one point, and I'm sure
you are making money or you wouldn't be doing it.

Let's see who owns the majority of the pharmaceutical
companies in America?

<< (Not to mention that insurance companies aren't going to
ignore effective treatments that will save them money.) >>

Ofcourse insurance companies are accepting chiropractic, and
wow, look at all of the numwits here that are so anti-
chiropractic...

<< The region was -- as it still is today -- politically
troubled.] >>

Palestine is troubled too..it seems that there is another
group that believes that part of Palestine should belong
to them....

<< You're the one who's clueless here, DEBBEE. Nobody's
stopping you from using alt. treatments or posting about
them. And your "masking it with drugs" rhetoric is just
that. Many conditions are successfully treated (not always
CURED) & the patient's quality of life greatly improved by
pharmaceuticals. Just ask someone with IDDM or
hypothyroidism if the drugs they need to take make any
positive difference for them.<<<<<

ZZZZ Michele...that's what a pro-conventional person
would say...

<< Your silly-ass pronouncements just go on & on, DEBBEE. If
a patient truly had a doc that didn't have time to make the
effort to find out the etiology of their pain, they should
see another MD. "Quick fixes" are sometimes what a patient
demands, especially if treating the source of the pain will
take time or effort they're not willing (or perhaps really
not able for any number of reasons) to devote to it. In many
cases, pain meds are prescribed only until the treatment of
its cause makes them unecessary.

Pain management is a fast growing part of conventional
health care that very often includes alt. therapies.
Exercise, chiropractic, massage, biofeedback & hypnosis, &
other alt. treatments are frequently utilized as tools by
those in the pain management arena. Patients are often
referred to these docs/therapists/facilities by MD's. >>

You silly assed brain obviously doesn't comprehend too well,
does it Michelle? What part of this did you not comprehend?
And who do you think you are fooling?

<< "Those of us that are not of your faith" has NOTHING to
do with your anti-Semetic remarks, DEBBEE. People of
different religious beliefs have commented on your anti-
Semetic [censored]. Many non-Jews recognize your religious bigotry
for the disgusting puke it is. >>

Hey, you are even a bigger puke, Michele...I dislike you for
the person that you are, and I haven't a clue what religion
you are..you and your buddies here, miss the points written
by those of us that are not into those of you that think you
are God's chosen few, and think your opinions are far
superior than the rest.

<< What a nasty booger you are, DEBBEE! >>

Look in the mirror, Michele.....your snot is showing..

<< And your outright lying statments WRT the reasons some
here don't blindly accept whatever they are told by those
promoting alt. therapies of questionable efficacy to make a
buck (or to air their opinion that *some* eeeevil conspiracy
is afoot) will require some more of that forgiveness you
blame the Jews for. >>

Are you talking about yourself, Michele, regarding
"lying"...if so, I couldn't agree with you more....

<< Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks willing to empty
the pockets of desperate people for nothing but
disappointment. >>

Just like those that you probably take money for when you do
massage, huh?

<< The advantage with conventional medicine is that it is
easier to gather information about it to assess than it is
with alt. therapies.] >>

Ofcourse, because many alternative therapies are not allowed
in data bases, claiming "scientific evidence" is needed. Who
do you think you are really fooling here, fool?

<< In other instances, patients have to do their homework,
ask questions & analyze the answers, & weigh all the
factors involved.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And that's why some of the smart folks have chosen
alternative therapies because there is neither a
conventional method for what they have, or their doctors
have not found an answer for health care problem....and
simply don't have time to find it in 15 minutes.

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance."
(Jessie Winchester).