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CTC lying, or incompetent?

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UK and Europe
Published
28 June 2007
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29 June 2007
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Mark
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  1. The CTC has been accused of being dishonest, incompetent and of
    deliberately failing to communicate it's concerns over the Highway Code
    changes in order to create the impression of a crisis to build up it's
    membership.

    "it [the CTC] did not need a big letter-writing campaign or to
    organise its membership to write to MPs to get that changed. Had it
    simply requested a meeting with the Minister and a further meeting
    with officials to make its concerns clear, we could have dealt with
    the matter, but it chose not to, presumably for its own purposes,
    because it is a membership-driven organisation that wants to build up
    its membership base."

    I'd be interested in seeing the CTC's minutes of the meetings they had with
    the DfT on the issue. It seems clear that there was either a
    misunderstanding of what the problem with the wording was, or that the CTC
    changed it's view late in the day and decided to go for a greater change
    than they'd previously sought. At least they did better than the all-party
    cycling group who seem to have ok'd the original wording.

    **************
    I've just pasted the relevent bits. Link to full text at the bottom
    **************

    Mr. Carmichael:
    I should commend the Minister for having met, eventually, the CTC—the
    UK’s national cyclists organisation—and taken its concerns on board. My
    impression of it as an organisation is that it is responsible and prepared
    to engage, and I hope that the Minister would concur with that. However,
    further to the point made about the process, it is unfortunate that it took
    so long to get around the table with the CTC. There is a residual feeling
    in that organisation and among many of its members that the effort required
    to get their point across should have been unnecessary.

    I hope that when we come to deal with this situation in the future, the
    Minister, his successor or successors will be mindful of the fact that such
    organisations have a good understanding of what they are talking
    about—possibly even better than some of those who are advising him or
    her—and that, as is evidenced by the fact that the Government’s position
    has changed on rules 61 and 63, they have a contribution to make.

    This has been a long, drawn-out process. It should not have necessitated
    last-minutes changes. Part of the concern was that the wording before the
    Committee would force cyclists to use cycle facilities that are sometimes
    inadequate, perhaps because they have not been maintained or were not
    appropriately installed in the first place. That needs to be addressed
    perhaps well beyond the scope of the Highway Code.

    Dr: Ladyman:
    I would like to make a general point about the CTC in response to
    what the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland said. We went out of our way
    to consult with it in tabling the version in front of us today. We listened
    to all its comments and engaged with it, and my officials met its
    representatives on many occasions to discuss this version. I also met the
    chair of the all-party group who gave me advice. We talked about a form of
    wording that she believed would be acceptable to everyone, and that was the
    version that we tabled. It was a surprise when the CTC came back and said
    that it was unacceptable.

    My advice to the CTC is that it did not need a big letter-writing campaign
    or to organise its membership to write to MPs to get that changed. Had it
    simply requested a meeting with the Minister and a further meeting with
    officials to make its concerns clear, we could have dealt with the matter,
    but it chose not to, presumably for its own purposes, because it is a
    membership-driven organisation that wants to build up its membership base.
    It does so by being in constant touch with its members, and exciting them
    about the great woes that the Government are about to inflict on them with
    an end to cycling as we know it. It wound up its members and told them to
    write to their MPs. That is why we had these big campaigns, but it did not
    need to do that to engage with us. It would engage better and get better
    results if it showed clearer leadership, set clearer targets for itself in
    each version of the discussions, and approached Ministers and Members of
    Parliament in advance of those big campaigns.

    If it is not being listened to, it should engage in a big campaign, but if
    it is getting its way, it should continue with that engagement because it
    and the Government would both get more out of it, and hon. Members would
    not spend their lives writing letters to Ministers who then have to write
    back repeating the same point over and again, ad nauseam, thousands of
    times.

    Mr. Carmichael:
    I want to read an e-mail that I received this morning from the CTC.
    It states that the history leading to the necessity for the changes to
    rules 61 and 63

    “apparently happened because they”—

    officials in the Minister’s Department—

    “had refused to meet CTC the national cyclists’ organisation (who had led
    on this issue with the full support of other cycling organisations).
    Instead they hid behind spurious excuses relating to parliamentary protocol
    as a reason for not doing so. Whether this was out of spite for the sheer
    volume of the consultation response, or an unwillingness to admit they had
    got it wrong, is unclear.”

    The Minister said that the CTC should have asked for meetings, but the CTC
    says that it sought meetings, which were refused.

    Dr. Ladyman:
    I have been advised that that is not true. My officials have had
    regular meetings with the CTC; we have not denied it meetings. Even if what
    the hon. Gentleman said was true—it is not—he knows well enough that the
    correct thing for the CTC to do would be to approach a Member of the House,
    who would request a meeting and discussion with the Minister. That way, the
    CTC could bypass officials and go straight to a Minister. I shall write to
    the new Prime Minister to tell him not to include me in the Government if
    any Member can say that I have refused a meeting with a Member of the House
    to discuss a matter of importance. I always hold meetings with Members who
    request them, and I will do so for as long as I am in the Government. If
    the CTC was in the position it says it is in—it is not—it could have gone
    to any member of the all-party cycling group, or any other Member of the
    House, and asked for a meeting with the Minister. That way, they would have
    had a meeting with me and the Member concerned to sort the matter out.

    The CTC has regular meetings, but it does not have a clear target or idea
    of what it wants to achieve. As soon as it achieves something, it wants to
    go one step further. The organisation has a disparate membership and a
    strategy that does not allow it to focus on what it wants to achieve. It
    never knows when it has benefited, or when to call it a day and wait for
    the next version of the code—it constantly wants to go on and on and on.
    That is not the way to lobby and it is not the way in which to achieve the
    best outcome for cyclists.

    I promise the hon. Gentleman that I shall ensure that my officials and the
    Department for Transport will learn the lessons of the consultation, and
    that we will try to do better when coming up with the next version of the
    code. In return for that, I expect the CTC and other organisations to learn
    their own lessons about the way in which to campaign and represent the
    views of cyclists, for the benefit of their members and the Government.

    [1] The full text available here (the link takes you to the second page,
    though there is also interesting and relevent stuff on the other two
    pages).

    <www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmtoday/cmstand/output/deleg/dg030706
    27-02.htm>

  2. Mark said:

    The CTC has been accused of being dishonest, incompetent and of
    deliberately failing to communicate it's concerns over the Highway Code
    changes in order to create the impression of a crisis to build up it's
    membership.

    <snip>

    Since the first attempt at getting a change was manifestly ignored,
    followed up by assurances that it hadn't been and was accounted for in
    the new wording, before a sudden need to change it again, that smells to
    me like a lot of Bollox (TM).

    The man's a politician well up the ladder so I'm immedaitely inclined
    not to believe him. My (Labour) MP was not impressed with his answers
    either.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  3. O

    Quoted message said:


    Dr. Ladyman:
    I have been advised that that is not true. My officials have had
    regular meetings with the CTC; we have not denied it meetings. Even if what
    the hon. Gentleman said was true-it is not-he knows well enough that the
    correct thing for the CTC to do would be to approach a Member of the House,
    who would request a meeting and discussion with the Minister. That way, the
    CTC could bypass officials and go straight to a Minister. I shall write to

    Or he could have said:'' yeah well this [censored] was nothing to do with
    me, in fact is his fault, he's the one, and them , not me, i was never
    told , in fact nobody was, etc ad infinitum.

    TerryJ

  4. On 28 Jun 2007 11:36:12 GMT, Mark wrote that Ladymnan said:

    [of the CTC]

    Quoted message said:

    It wound up its members and told them to write to their MPs. That
    is why we had these big campaigns, but it did not need to do that
    to engage with us.

    Which is grade-A bollocks. It was the DfT that invited people to
    write about the HC initially - they called it a consultation (but were
    apparently caught out when it gave the wrong answer).

    The second pass, the CTC was saying don't write to your MP, so far as
    anyone could see them doing anything.

    Quoted message said:

    hon. Members would not spend their lives writing letters to
    Ministers who then have to write back repeating the same point over
    and again, ad nauseam, thousands of times.

    I am immensely pleased that he was personally irritated by the need to
    try and justify the incompetence of his department. It's a shame he
    apparently didn't understand the objections.

    It is, of course, shocking that members of the general public should
    ask MPs to represent their interests in the parliamentary system
    rather than leave it to very important people like Dr Ladyman. I'm
    sure Dr Ladyman knows much better than me what my interests are, and
    in future I'm certain to bow to his superior judgement.

    One can only hope that Ms Kelly has been paying attention.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  5. Dr Ladyman:

    Quoted message said:

    My advice to the CTC is that it did not need a big letter-writing campaign
    or to organise its membership to write to MPs to get that changed. Had it
    simply requested a meeting with the Minister and a further meeting with
    officials to make its concerns clear, we could have dealt with the matter,
    but it chose not to, presumably for its own purposes, because it is a
    membership-driven organisation that wants to build up its membership base.
    It does so by being in constant touch with its members, and exciting them
    about the great woes that the Government are about to inflict on them with
    an end to cycling as we know it. It wound up its members and told them to
    write to their MPs.

    I would find that more believable if we'd heard a peep out of the CTC
    during the timeframe in question, but a look back at the threads here
    will reveal that they they were keeping strangely quiet about the whole
    thing and most of the /visible/ action was taken by other individuals
    and groups (not least the Cambridge Cycling Campaign).

    I'm happy to believe that the CTC's "behind the scenes" efforts
    contributed to the eventual success with rules 61/63, but I saw no
    evidence of any of the behaviour Ladyman claims.

    -dan

  6. TerryJ said:

    Or he could have said:'' yeah well this [censored] was nothing to do with
    me, in fact is his fault, he's the one, and them , not me, i was never
    told , in fact nobody was, etc ad infinitum.

    "A big cyclists' organisation did it, and ran away!"

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  7. Daniel Barlow said:

    Dr Ladyman:

    Quoted message said:

    My advice to the CTC is that it did not need a big letter-writing campaign
    or to organise its membership to write to MPs to get that changed. Had it
    simply requested a meeting with the Minister and a further meeting with
    officials to make its concerns clear, we could have dealt with the matter,
    but it chose not to, presumably for its own purposes, because it is a
    membership-driven organisation that wants to build up its membership base.
    It does so by being in constant touch with its members, and exciting them
    about the great woes that the Government are about to inflict on them with
    an end to cycling as we know it. It wound up its members and told them to
    write to their MPs.

    I would find that more believable if we'd heard a peep out of the CTC
    during the timeframe in question, but a look back at the threads here
    will reveal that they they were keeping strangely quiet about the whole
    thing and most of the /visible/ action was taken by other individuals
    and groups (not least the Cambridge Cycling Campaign).

    I'm happy to believe that the CTC's "behind the scenes" efforts
    contributed to the eventual success with rules 61/63, but I saw no
    evidence of any of the behaviour Ladyman claims.

    There was a question put to the minister as to when the DoT had met
    with the CTC. It was long before the HC came out - mid consultation or
    earlier. Yet the DoT claimed they were having regular meetings with
    all stakeholders including CTC over the issue.

    So personally, I am prepared to accept that either the DoT are lying
    through their teeth, or the language they are using, whilst
    superficially appering to be like English, is in fact some other
    language with a meaning and syntax directly opposite.

    ...d

  8. In article said:

    The CTC has been accused of being dishonest, incompetent and of
    deliberately failing to communicate it's concerns over the Highway Code
    changes in order to create the impression of a crisis to build up it's
    membership.

    Given that we know Ladyman has been either totally clueless or lying
    through his teeth about the changes, his attempts to blame someone
    else for his looking so bad don't have much credibility.


  9. Quoted message said:


    Given that we know Ladyman has been either totally clueless or lying
    through his teeth about the changes, his attempts to blame someone
    else for his looking so bad don't have much credibility.

    and it seems he knows something about hlmets that nobody else does,
    although he has so far kept the precise details all to himself.
    Again, the opinion will have been created by someone else, probably a
    22yr old trainee who read a leaflet by bhit and can be blamed if
    necessary.
    I would really like to see him reveal his sources, but he's already
    run away.Are they allowed to do that?
    TerryJ

  10. in message <[email hidden]>, Mark
    ('pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid'😉

    Quoted message said:

    The CTC has been accused of being dishonest, incompetent and of
    deliberately failing to communicate it's concerns over the Highway Code
    changes in order to create the impression of a crisis to build up it's
    membership.

    "it [the CTC] did not need a big letter-writing campaign or to
    organise its membership to write to MPs to get that changed. Had it
    simply requested a meeting with the Minister and a further meeting
    with officials to make its concerns clear, we could have dealt with
    the matter, but it chose not to, presumably for its own purposes,
    because it is a membership-driven organisation that wants to build up
    its membership base."

    I'd be interested in seeing the CTC's minutes of the meetings they had
    with the DfT on the issue.

    There are two things possible here: the CTC is being dishonest, or a Labour
    politician is being dishonest. On the balance of probabilities, which is
    more likely?

    Particularly given the fact...

    Quoted message said:

    My advice to the CTC is that it did not need a big letter-writing
    campaign or to organise its membership to write to MPs to get that
    changed.

    ....that as we all know, the CTC asked its members /not/ to write, as it was
    dealing with the matter.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
    Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
    murther
    -- Robert Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'

  11. On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:40:21 +0100, Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    I would find that more believable if we'd heard a peep out of the CTC
    during the timeframe in question

    During the *quiet* period, and before the final amendments were made,
    I was asked many times by the CTC for my views on the matter, and for
    details of a specific example when the police instructed me and my
    trainees to use a two-way shared use cycle lane on the opposite side
    of the road and on a steep hill. A cycle path which I consider too
    dangerous to use.

    I have mentioned this here before, it is the shared use cycle path
    through Greenwich Park.

    I was also asked for details of a cycle lane which I use to
    demonstrate the trainees the dangers of cycle paths. The path is
    segregated from the main road by trees and a thick hedge. At an
    entrance to a petrol filling station (pfs), traffic from both
    directions on the main road have priority to cross the cycle path into
    the pfs, and traffic from the pfs turning onto the main road in both
    directions have priority over cyclists on the path. The problem is
    that visibility from road onto cycle path, cycle path onto road, pfs
    onto cycle path and cycle path into pfs is very severely restricted by
    the hedge on one side and a wooden slat fence on the other side.

    I have no doubt that the CTC used these or similar specific examples
    to persuade ministers to amend the HC, and I am grateful to them and
    acknowledge their efforts on our behalf.

    However, I do think that Ladyman has a point, and that the CTC needs a
    clear mission statement and a common set of goals.

    I like Cycling England's "More people cycling, more often, more
    safely". Finding a common set of goals may prove more difficult with
    cyclists being such a diverse set.

  12. On 28 Jun 2007 11:36:12 GMT,

    Mark pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid said:

    The CTC has been accused of being dishonest, incompetent and of
    deliberately failing to communicate it's concerns over the Highway Code
    changes in order to create the impression of a crisis to build up it's
    membership.


    Thanks to some chaotic times at work just recently I didn't actually
    manage to get around to cancelling my membership or changing my monthly
    charitable donation to the cyclists defense fund.

    But if TPTB think that the CTCs stance on this was in order to boost
    membership then it's no wonder TPTB are completely out of touch with
    reality.

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
    and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

  13. Mark said:

    The CTC has been accused of being dishonest, incompetent and of
    deliberately failing to communicate it's concerns over the Highway Code
    changes in order to create the impression of a crisis to build up it's
    membership.

    Quoted message said:

    [1] The full text available here (the link takes you to the second page,
    though there is also interesting and relevent stuff on the other two
    pages).

    http://tinyurl.com/2h9zfd (link to first page).

    Quoted message said:

    <www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmtoday/cmstand/output/deleg/dg030706
    27-02.htm>

    My impression of this is that the CTC saw the version last
    year, and thought that it needed to be changed. It then
    sought talks with the DfT and at the same time encouraged
    its members to write to their MPs to support the CTC.

    The government then said to the CTC that they were wrong
    in the way they asked their members to write to MPs, and
    said that they would talk to the CTC privately.

    The CTC then responded to the March draft by trying to
    talk to ministers, and to discourage members to write to
    members MPs.

    I think that the only mistake the CTC made was to keep its
    communications with the government quiet from it members.

    I recall reading in the above committee meeting that the
    government acknowledged that the CTC knew what the CTC was
    talking about with regards to cycling.

    Martin.

  14. hmmmmm.

    Tricky one.

    CTC lying

    or

    politician lying

    hmmmmm, tricky.

  15. Tom Crispin said:

    On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:40:21 +0100, Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]>
    wrote:


    <snip attack on and defence of CTC>

    Quoted message said:

    However, I do think that Ladyman has a point, and that the CTC needs a
    clear mission statement and a common set of goals.

    I like Cycling England's "More people cycling, more often, more
    safely". Finding a common set of goals may prove more difficult with
    cyclists being such a diverse set.

    How about something like 'to make cycling enjoyable, safe and
    welcoming for all.'

    Hope that copper doesn't take the recent incident in the park as a
    vindication of his position. One criticised me for not riding on that
    path or wearing a helmut ages ago. Perhaps the same one.

    best wishes
    james

  16. email hidden said:
    Tom Crispin said:

    On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:40:21 +0100, Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]>
    wrote:


    <snip attack on and defence of CTC>

    I hadn't thought of it that way!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    However, I do think that Ladyman has a point, and that the CTC needs a
    clear mission statement and a common set of goals.

    I like Cycling England's "More people cycling, more often, more
    safely". Finding a common set of goals may prove more difficult with
    cyclists being such a diverse set.

    How about something like 'to make cycling enjoyable, safe and
    welcoming for all.'

    Hope that copper doesn't take the recent incident in the park as a
    vindication of his position. One criticised me for not riding on that
    path or wearing a helmut ages ago. Perhaps the same one.

    In October 2001 a Royal Parks Constable physically asaulted me when I
    tried to lock up my crashed and unridable bike in the park. He
    claimed that it was a security risk and that I may have packed the
    frame with explosive. He was unable to explain what I might have to
    gain from blowing up the railings around the toilet block.

    The Royal Parks Constabulary has since been disbanded.

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